Master at Arms Badge for Boy Scouts (1925) [pdf]

https://web.archive.org/web/20211101051546if_/http://bsatroop883.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Master-at-Arms.pdf

by 83457 • 4 years ago

94 118 4 years ago

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Holy smokes! Reading this over, I'll bet there were more than a few injuries among the groups that practiced it.

Imagine sending your kid off for a fun weekend and then watching them come home Sunday morning with an acute elbow injury from an arm bar...

Scouting was dangerous enough without that stuff. You could get lost and even die in any number of unexpected ways. I watched a friend take a full swing of a wood axe to the top of his head. It didn't make any of us stronger or more interested in the outdoors. Plus everybody told us the Eagle Scout looked amazing on a resume when you become an adult, but they didn't mention that it could have the complete opposite effect depending on where you're applying...

Edit: I see the typical pro-danger, pro-learning-through-injury realism-posturing replies, but these quick takes are inappropriate for beginners, which merit-badge-earning scouts definitely are.

eckmLJE• 4 years ago

Where did you apply that being an Eagle Scout counted against you?

jimbob45• 4 years ago

The problem is that people who become Eagle Scouts tend to be successful enough individuals that the jobs they apply to don't understand why they would put such a low-grade achievement on their resume (compared to the other higher achievements they most likely have).

It's like putting that you won an Olympic Gold in gymnastics when applying to be CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Yes, it's impressive to everyone, but at some point it's not necessary.

I'd say the same applies to high school Honor Societies. If you're a member of one, chances are that it's never going to professionally benefit you.

themodelplumber6• 4 years ago

When multimedia was a huge thing in the late '90s and early '00s, you had a lot of small businesses with tight groups of graphic designers, illustrators, developers (full stack web + Flash & Director), and animators. Usually one of the creatives was in charge of hiring. It was totally obviously not a pro, and in many cases they'd make fun of it outright, or politely advise to take it off.

throwawayboise4• 4 years ago

At the time this was written, boys learning to face danger, fight, and possibly getting injured was considered normal.

prometheus76• 4 years ago

Part of learning to defend oneself is getting injured along the way. It's part of the learning process. You can't learn to fight by reading a book about it. If you start to participate and learn through that participation, sometimes your efforts (or someone else's) will lead to injury.

themodelplumber6• 4 years ago

You can't learn to fight by reading a book about it

Just to say that this is untrue, as long as your opponent has not read any books or had any training. A lot of scouts or just bullied kids who visit the library will tell you that.

UberFly• 4 years ago

Sheesh. Some of the best things I ever did involved the risk of getting hurt. And yes, I guess I could see someone very left-leaning hating on an Eagle Scout but it would still probably be rare thankfully.

themodelplumber6• 4 years ago

Oh, you should see a right-leaning person screaming obscenities at a boy scout, if you're open to new perspectives.

You know they have been teaching Environmental Science since at least the '80s? I almost saw an adult fight break out because of that one.

Scouts always had randos protesting their indoctrination. Zone of the political spectrum depended on the contextual hot take.

micromacrofoot3• 4 years ago

What's the liberal complaint about scouting?

colechristensen• 4 years ago

It’s not a quick take, it’s just modern infantilization of children to the point that many people in their 20s have difficulty with basics.

Everyone starts as a beginner and age doesn’t change that, except maybe by making things harder as you get older.

Do you object to the pacing or the starting age or are you imagining that the people teaching this were reckless?

gonzo7• 4 years ago

As a Scoutmaster for 7 years I introduced the axe and other subjects to over 200 11 year-old boys without a single injury other than 2 semi-minor burns.

I, OTOH, suffered an ascending aortic dissection that terminates in my left iliac. I survived (obviously), but it did stop me from e.g. Philmont afterwords.

ilamont4• 4 years ago

Some merit badges involve strenuous physical challenges, such as hiking (multiple long-distance hikes including a 50-miler). The canoeing MB requires learning how to get back on an overturned canoe while in deep water, which is bloody hard.

They still have badges for shooting and archery, too.

There are also some badges that were unexpected - plumbing, fixing farm equipment, computer game design.

MisterBastahrd3• 4 years ago

Ah yes, the canoeing merit badge. Accomplished by yours truly and one other scout because I found an underwater stump in the Sewanee river and told him about it. LOL.

graywh• 4 years ago

there's no 50-mile hike requirement -- all the hikes are to be done in a single day and 20 is the maximum length for good reason

the sum total of all the required hikes is 70 miles: 5, 10, 10, 10, 15, 20

ilamont4• 4 years ago

You are correct. I was thinking of the "50 miler" badge.

https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/50-miler/

fishtoaster• 4 years ago

I remember getting my computer badge- in the late 90s, iirc. I had to write up a document in a word processor, create a simple spreadsheet, and one or two other things I'm probably forgetting. Even then it felt a bit basic and behind the times, but I was happy to get an easy badge!

gonzo7• 4 years ago

Merit Badges are mostly designed to be introductory, not a test of advanced competency.

mistrial92• 4 years ago

canoe merit badge here

dingus24• 4 years ago

The lifesaving merit badge was the hardest for me. Lots of swimming and you have to lift a weight out of the deep end of the pool. Didn't help the camp that we did it at was at a high elevation in Colorado.

Unfortunately I didn't stick with it long enough to go on any of the famous backpacking trips. That being said, Boy Scouts was a valuable experience that offered some cool experiences no other organization offers around that age.

gonzo7• 4 years ago

Hiking requires one 5-mile hike three 10-mile hikes, one 15-mile hike and one 20-mile hike.

None can be overnight.

The Backpacking MB requires a 30 mile trip over at least 3 days or nights (3 overnight stops).

None require a 50 mile hike, though there is a “50 mile” award that requires at least 50 miles over 5 days with no motor vehicles. Some troops (units) make a 50 mile trip compulsory in order to attend the High Adventure base trip (e.g. Philmont.)

aerostable_slug• 4 years ago

unexpected

I had a habit of collecting unusual merit badges that few had seen before: Animal Science (hey, it's got a cow on the badge, and besides I had cows), Atomic Energy, etc. I got my Entomology merit badge at the National Scout Jamboree from a team of highly motivated active duty Soldiers who had the job of eradicating potential disease vectors from areas where our troops would live and work, even during wartime. They were so happy I stopped at their little booth — I'm guessing the majority of Soldiers treated them like the bulk fuel folks (or other unsung jobs) rather than the people who keep you from contracting some horrific tropical disease.

The head of the team was a full bird colonel with a PhD from IIRC Cornell who revelled in the fact that .mil is exempt from EPA regs. They got to use the heavy artillery of insect control means. He flatly stated, with no small amount of pride, that not a single Scout at the National Jamboree that year would get Lyme unless they went into the (untreated) woods. My father was a staff physician for the Jamboree, and as best as he could tell the colonel was right — now, they did have Lyme infections from kids going decidedly "off piste", this being Fort AP Hill, VA, in the summer.

kiernanmcgowan2• 4 years ago

I'm just thinking back to my time in scouting and can only imagine what it would be like to teach a bunch of 14-16 y/os the 1920s equivalent of MMA. Probably about 30min of fun until kids just start hitting each other as hard as they can with sticks.

Still sounds more fun than the basket weaving merit badge though.

themodelplumber6• 4 years ago

Did you do basket weaving? Basket weaving was super chill and could make you feel like an adult in some important ways. My baskets were a disaster but talking to friends about favorite video games while weaving them was like free therapy.

thaumasiotes• 4 years ago

but talking to friends about favorite video games while weaving them was like free therapy.

This is backwards. Your friends aren't cheap knockoffs of a therapist. Therapists are people you pay to pretend to be your friend.

dctoedt4• 4 years ago

Former longtime adult Scout leader here (and Eagle Scout) -- you're absolutely right about the kids hitting each other

gcheong2• 4 years ago

I get it but when I took martial arts as a kid it didn’t devolve into a free-for-all so I guess it would depend on the effectiveness of the teacher to maintain order.

kjanssen• 4 years ago

Hey man, my first year at summer camp all I did was basket weaving, leather working, and pottery. I originally planned to do swimming and some other adventurous stuff but was too overwhelmed by the swim test to be allowed in the lake and had a bit of a meltdown before changing course. I spent the whole week chilling in camp or the crafting grove working with my hands - it was great.

A few years later I went to a different summer camp as a senior patrol leader and finally got my swimming badge along with canoeing and rock climbing - that was a great week too. Point being: there's value in the "boring" stuff, maybe even more so now that I'm established in my career and looking for a little more peace these days. Lately I've been strangely interested in weaving and am thinking of making a simple loom - maybe this goes back to my basket weaving experience when I was 10?

ddoolin• 4 years ago

I wasn't at all worried BEFORE that swim test, but afterwards I can safely say that was legitimately difficult and pretty terrifying. Especially when you realize the lake we did it in was full of leeches, which was completely foreign to me at the time.

EVdotIO2• 4 years ago

Hey, basket weaving and leather work were super fun, and I have all cool ones like shotgun, archery and rifle. The most boring are probably your citizenship badges. Don't knock it till you try it.

jackcosgrove• 4 years ago

Safety was the most boring badge, and quite a bear too. Lots of memorization. It was required afaik too, at least back in the 90s. Had a reputation as blocking advancement to a higher rank, I think Life.

kiernanmcgowan2• 4 years ago

Oh I have the leather working merit badge, I loved it! The particulars of how to work with hide and stamp it was a neat arts-and-crafts activity that I hadn't realized.

Basket weaving was considered the slacker badge (for my troop at least) to work on during summer camp because it had 2 requirements and it generally took a day to complete. I was more interested in rock climbing / canoeing / forestry etc - we're in the wood for a week, why waste it?

throwanem• 4 years ago

Probably about 30min of fun until kids just start hitting each other as hard as they can with sticks.

BB gun fights were a regular feature of childhood where and when I grew up. I never took part myself - my mom had already instructed me in the correct use, care, and safe handling of actual firearms, for one thing, and for another I knew she'd take my own Daisy air gun away if she heard of me doing anything so foolish - but lots of kids I knew did, and regularly had the injuries to prove it. Their folks never fussed so far as I knew.

That was in the late 80s and early 90s. So I feel like in the 1920s kids hitting each other with sticks is going to be about 50% "builds character," and the balance "well, it'll help get them ready for the next war".

irrational2• 4 years ago

1925 in Great Britain? So, this was published just a few years after the end of World War I. I presume it was written by people who actually fought in the war. I wonder how much of this reflected the skills they had learned or used as soldiers in that war?

Dlanv• 4 years ago

I'm not sure they fought with quarterstaffs or rapiers in WW1.

The boxing and jiu jitsu perhaps.

irrational2• 4 years ago

Apparently swords were used in the war.

http://www.militarian.com/threads/use-of-the-sword-in-ww1.70...

Hitting each other with sticks seems like something people at war would do ;-)

ch4s3• 4 years ago

Ehh… a quarter staff is a good approximation for a lot of weapons of convenience. It also teaches gauging distance in a way that translate to boxing.

FooBarBizBazz• 4 years ago

Not exactly the same, but this guy made a longbow kill in WW2:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill

dctoedt4• 4 years ago

I wonder how much of this reflected the skills they had learned or used as soldiers in that war?

Even today, Marine recruits are trained to fight with pugil sticks and padding — part of the idea is to get them accustomed to being hit without losing focus on the mission.

https://rp.marineparents.com/bootcamp/mcmap.asp

gonzo7• 4 years ago

There is an infamous story about a Duke in the SCA pugil stick fighting with a DI

http://www.florilegium.org/files/STORIES/SCA-stories1-msg.ht...

jvanderbot6• 4 years ago

I really love this.

I am a firm believer in everyone studying _some_ martial art (player's choice).

For the following reasons:

- It teaches an insane amount of respect when two people have to hold themselves back to practice

- It teaches self-discipline, mostly in the long-forgotten art of keeping yourself from becoming so angry you cannot function with form.

- It gives a crazy amount of confidence to know you are at least a little bit prepared for bad situations

- It removes a lot of the panic instinct in all kinds of intimidating situations, from actual fights, to presenting to a review board.

- You quickly learn to operate through pain and discomfort and intimidation, even if you are not being actually injured (e.g., not actually sparring).

- Everyone should feel that they are legitimately their own first line of defense. Even if that defense is to create space and get away.

My sport was boxing. I'm a knowledge worker, still.

throwawayboise4• 4 years ago

I could support kids learning boxing if it was limited to body blows. With what we are learning about concussion, it seems to be more and more understood that blows to the head are never OK. Maybe you still need to teach defense against head blows, but they should probably not be allowed in competition. Getting battered in the head until you cannot stand up or respond should be right out.

leephillips4• 4 years ago

Although, according to the pamphlet, “Every boy who is worthy of the name has an inclination to know something of the art of boxing.”

slowhand09• 4 years ago

Boxing outside of competition is almost always done with head protection gear. And supervision to prevent violence rather than sport.

jvanderbot6• 4 years ago

One of the biggest misconceptions about boxing training is that it involves repeated blows to the head.

Boxing _competitions_ may. But boxing _training_ involves form, combos, reflexes and defense drills, and lots of conditioning. The most contact is "touch" drills, where you may touch your glove to someone with no force behind it. These drills are for intermediates to prepare for sparring, and I've never seen someone get hit too hard there.

Imagine if karate involved untrained people just kicking eachother hard enough to injure themselves / someone. That seems silly, yet that's what we imagine with boxing.

amalcon• 4 years ago

There are martial arts where even in competition, concussion is relatively rare. E.g. grappling sports like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu don't usually involve impacts of that intensity, to the head or otherwise.

mastazi2• 4 years ago

The problem is that out of this concern, some martial arts disallowed head blows in competition, only to fall out of grace due to how "unrealistic" they are in terms of self defence.

A large number of people who start practising martial arts, does that out of a self defence concern, maybe they have been bullied at school etc.

I don't have a solution to this problem (possibly head gear, but recent studies seem to indicate that it's not effective and might even make things worse)[1].

Of course one possible solution would be to mainly promote grappling-based martial arts, like BJJ or amateur wrestling, but then in a self defence optic you would still need some striking practice, at least in order to learn striking defence.

[1] https://www.wired.com/2016/08/olympic-boxers-arent-wearing-h...

mistrial92• 4 years ago

not sure how anyone can recommend boxing now ; all those interactions require the right social environment, things can go wrong quickly. I reflect on learning about places in the USA where they take wrestling seriously, which at the time seemed like low-income, blue collar sort of places.. but now I realize that the social interaction between men there was rugged, but they had norms and ways to regain equilibrium. Meanwhile multi-cultural urban school, really a bad idea to have regular and repeated situations where students strike others, IMHO.

makeitdouble• 4 years ago

Meanwhile multi-cultural urban school, really a bad idea to have regular and repeated situations where students strike others, IMHO.

I see it as a chicken and egg problem.

It can be hard to manage situations where people from different background and culture have to intensely interact with each other, especially as they are pushed to their limits. But it is also by having multi-cultural people regularly interact with each others that you help improve their relations and make these situations better.

If it seems hard to enter the cycle, a smaller first step to have the kids get used to be around each other could help.

jvanderbot6• 4 years ago

This is not written from a place of experience, i think.

Boxing is a perfectly fine sport, with reputable, kid-friendly gyms all over. My favorite gym, where I trained for years, had an after-school program for kids, in fact.

And I always take the opportunity to dispel a common misconception: You can study boxing your whole life and never have anyone throw a real punch at you, or strike you violently. Just like you can study karate your whole life, and never have to kick anyone in the head. You should look up videos of boxing training techniques (not sparring) and see what it's all about.

Technique, conditioning, mental preparation, combos, footwork are what you learn. Sparring is for those who want to compete.

Honestly, why do people still believe this? Movies?

leephillips4• 4 years ago

All excellent points. And, in addition, you get many other beneficial side effects: improved sense of balance and body awareness, situational awareness, realistic appreciation of how dangerous fighting is and how easy it is to get hurt, stamina, and more.

VWWHFSfQ• 4 years ago

Not to mention a little bit of humbling.

Mike Tyson had a very famous quote "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

It's good way to learn about your own limitations in the most primitive form.

moron4hire• 4 years ago

In principle, I want to agree. In practice, I think the vast majority of martial arts schools are nothing more than glorified day care facilities with a side of calisthenics.

They don't constructively do anything to actually teach those issues of control and discipline to the students. It's not enough to give people the skills and then expect them to learn from experience the restraint necessary to not use it. They don't do anything at all to prepare their students for the realities of what it means to use violence against another human being. It is an emotionally traumatizing experience.

Nothing like that was ever mentioned in any of the schools across multiple styles that I attended. All that was discussed was the potential of an "unfair" legal ruling if your attacker decided to press battery chargers against you. There was always an implication of "be careful when looking for a place to use these skills", not "avoid it completely, except on completely unavoidable threat to life and limb."

giantg23• 4 years ago

"They don't constructively do anything to actually teach those issues of control and discipline to the students."

At least when I was growing up, it was always the kids who took karate that were quick to fight, or talk smack. So I think I agree. Although one caveat is that it's not appropriate for everyone, or that some kids need to be much older than others. So maybe it has to do with the parents and facilities not denying those kids based on their ability to control themselves.

On a side note, if a kid uses martial arts skills in real life, it could result in increased liability. That's something people don't think about.

Isamu• 4 years ago

Does anybody have a recommendation for learning two-handed longsword technique?

Not that I made my daughters full size wooden practice claymores or anything. I’m asking for a friend.

bradknowles2• 4 years ago

The Society for Creative Anachronism is one option, but you'd have to find someone willing to teach youngsters about heavy weapons combat.

There are other heavy weapons martial artist organizations out there. Jill Bearup (on YouTube) is a stage combat person, but she's also had contact with people who do martial arts in the space.

Of course, if you want to learn Japanese style sword combat, go down to your local Kendo Dojo.

bane• 4 years ago

For people wanting to have a bit of fun and handle things that feel like weapons, I'd highly recommend searching out a contemporary Wushu (Kung Fu) school. It's the modern sport martial art of China, is sort of a combination of traditional Chinese Martial Arts, Kickboxing, and Gymnastics and weapons are a very big component. It's very close to becoming an Olympic sport even though it's not incredibly well known.

For reference, it's what movie actor Jet Li was trained in and performed when he came to the White House in the 70s as part of the U.S.-China opening up.

soylentcola• 4 years ago

Ex-gf of mine did HEMA (https://www.hemaalliance.com/) for a bit. Gear isn't cheap, but it seemed fairly serious and welcomed all skill levels.

SapporoChris• 4 years ago

I can't disagree, but I offer I hope an amusing counterpoint I heard from my uncle. It was Korean war or earlier and during basic training they were learning bayonet fighting. One soldier protested and said he did not need to learn bayonet fighting as a knife wound to the ass is not fatal.

My counterpoint being, it's good to know the skills but avoidance when possible is best.

jvanderbot6• 4 years ago

It is really hard to safely create space in a fight if your opponent is right on you and there's any kind of obstacle around. Or, if they have a hold on you.

At least, I assume so given how much time is dedicated to creating space and moving away in my boxing and krav maga training.

nimbius• 4 years ago

Broke: I want to enter my son into a child fighting ring.

Woke: My boys earning his arms merit badge in the boy scouts.

motohagiography• 4 years ago

Grew up playing hockey and just assumed the point of having children was to set them against one another for sport. It's as though nobody here is from Canada. Did you not have lawn darts, potassium nitrate, and licorice cigars? I was a generation or so late to get a duelling scar, but grew up about 20miles from the site of Camp X (where we invented the CIA), and it seemed the american kids were given guns willy nilly where here it was just expected you would use the tools at hand to plan a night mission take them yourself in the event of an invasion. I'm a bit out of the loop as I have only recently become an uncle, but presumably a boy today can at least still have a pet bobcat?

Between all the sugar cereals and cartoons, it's a wonder the people of the US aren't speaking Canadian...

totierne22• 4 years ago

Border poll?

gonzo7• 4 years ago

We had lawn darts and potassium nitrate.

I was given my first rifle when I was 6 (for Christmas). Still have it.

I turned 60 yesterday.

Different times.

corrral• 4 years ago

Master at Arms Badge for Boy Scouts (1925) [pdf]

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