UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

http://blog.jgc.org/2011/09/letter-to-michael-gove-secretary-of.html

by jgrahamc • 15 years ago

98 83 15 years ago

blog.jgc.org

arethuza• 15 years ago

What do you think of the Computing Higher we have north of the border?

http://www.sqa.org.uk/pastpapers/papers/papers/2011/H_Comput...

I had a look at it when this topic last came up and I was quite impressed - Prolog in schools!

jgrahamc6• 15 years ago

Every time I read about the Scottish educational system I am impressed. Damn those Graham-Cummings who left Scotland for England :-)

getonit• 15 years ago

Dear John, Whoosh! Not my problem. Love, the Government.

coob• 15 years ago

Ignoring their response, and addressing your point about the Pi:

Why should we focus on that when kids have a much more powerful and easier to use bit of kit in their pocket?

Surely using something simple like LiveCode on an iOS/Android touch device will be much more interesting and engaging, whilst still giving a grounding in the fundamentals.

jgrahamc6• 15 years ago

The main issue would be uniformity across schools. It would be easier to have a single platform (such as Pi, but I'm not wed to that one) than iOS/Android. Also, not clear that all children have smartphones at age 9.

Donch2• 15 years ago

I totally agree with John's letter. When I was in primary school we had access to a BBC Micro with a Logo turtle which we could program ourselves. In senior school we had a BBC Master with the Domesday project, which was amazing at the time with decent resolution photos! The school was also lucky enough to have a ring network of BBC Micros with a shared Winchester Hard Drive. Later, we got access to Acorn Archimedes computers.

The thing that all these BBC/Acorn computers had in common was immediate access to a BASIC interpreter, and with the Archimedes, inline assembler. We had a great teacher who taught us how to use binary in bitwise operations. We were encouraged to write a program for GCSE computer studies and I wrote a library catalogue database without a backend database! A friend wrote a graphical calculator that he then went on to sell commercially. There was a regular Computer Club every Wednesday after school where you could do whatever you wanted - play games, write code, use *SHEET to do some maths...

All these things propelled me, later in life, to become a software developer and I'm glad I was given the skills necessary from school. Today, it's all about trying to get spyware infested computers to print from Microsoft Word in less than half an hour. A low-level hardware platform that is instantly programmable is a noble aim and I salute the Raspberry Pi chaps and hope you succeed!

shiven• 15 years ago

The good ol' days! I started programming with BASIC on BBC Micro Model B, in high school, and absolutely loved it. I guess a big reason for igniting my passion were the amazing books that came with it. Huge, glossy pages in full color with what were to me the most beautiful graphics. I remember writing programs on paper and then typing them in later --- debugging beforehand by running the program in my head! I wrote a graphics calculator for a science fair at school and remember having the whole program memorized!!!

Aah, glory days ;-)

mattmanser• 15 years ago

Is an email to Michael Gove really the best way to get his attention?

This is a classic fob off email by a gatekeeper underling who has no idea who you are.

jgrahamc6• 15 years ago

And ironically Michael Gove does know who I am because he was in the room next to me at Oxford. I figured this was the best way to get to him since he has personally responded to me in the past.

cturner• 15 years ago

He's not going to have time to open all his mail.

Do the same letter handwritten. Put a post-it note on the front saying "roommate from college" so whoever opens his mail will know to pass it through. Send it snail-mail.

Having said that, I think your letter had no point, and getting upset about the response is crazy. Your letter has a long introduction and then asks for hand-waving assistance, "The project does not need money, but it does need the sort of wind in its sails that government can provide." What does that mean? Why are you looking for the government to do technology leadership when it's been reliably shown to be rubbish at it?

Here's something you could do. Find a way to get geeks teaching classes to kids using Rasberry Pis. I'm in London and have thought this would be fun to do but I'm crap at setting things up. If you set it up and want a lecturer my email's in my profile and I can probably find others.

timthorn3• 15 years ago

You should have mentioned that, I'd have thought - if there was a personal link in the email, it might have got past the first level of screening?

I don't think Sandra's substantive response was terrible (save for your name being wrong); your initial email does read somewhat as if it's primarily about the Raspberry Pi initiative rather than the broader issues (which you use as a foundation for the Pi suggestion).

All I'd say is don't give up - just bear in mind Gove will be up to his neck in conference prep at the moment. I know you've good experience in successful campaigning...

ig1• 15 years ago

I've got decent replies from ministers by email before.

samarudge4• 15 years ago

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it.

Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths?

If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going into computing as a career, learning specifically programming will be absolutely no help. Programming has many benefits, but seeing as there are going to be cuts to educational funding, increases in class sizes etc. adding an extra topic that will only be useful to a small number of people would be wasteful. I agree that 'IT' taught in schools needs to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, rather than saying "this is how to use Powerpoint", it should be teaching kids how to find things out for themselves. But that is the same with nearly every other subject.

If you took a random person you passed on a busy London street at lunch time, how much better do you think they would be able to do their job if they knew how to program? I'd guess that for the majority of people it would make little to no difference. If someone wants to learn to program they can take it upon themselves to learn, like if someone wants to learn how to cook, or ride a bike, or play piano.

Am I looking at this the wrong way? Is there something I've missed?

Post; All the above being taken into account, their response was not acceptable. I'm sure they have to put up with a lot of nuts but that was a well thought out, well written email that made some valid points.

Donch2• 15 years ago

I think programming is less essential than literacy and numeracy, agreed. But there are plenty of subjects that do not lead directly to jobs, drama and history being obvious examples. The point I would make is that the more people who get taught programming at school, the more people who are available in the workforce who can program. Programming is better paid than most other jobs. The skills attract foreign investment. Why would this be a bad thing?

samarudge4• 15 years ago

Yes there are many subjects that do not lead to jobs, but it was suggested that programming should be taught as a fundimental subject, allongside english and maths. Most subjects you can drop when you're 16 and take the things that not only intrest you, but should be relevant to your job. When I was 15, we did 1 hour a week of history, and 3 hours a week of maths.

Being a lawer is well payed, I'd never do it and it isn't getting taught in school. And they only attract jobs now because not many people can do it, if every graduate could program to a reasonable level, salleries would go down and the number of people unemployed with these skills would go up.

jgrahamc6• 15 years ago

My view is that the average Londoner would benefit more from having been taught the basics of programming at a young age than where to find the font choices in Word.

anamax• 15 years ago

> My view is that the average Londoner would benefit more from having been taught the basics of programming at a young age than where to find the font choices in Word.

Yes, but what are the odds that a school that teaches where to find the font choices in Word as part of an English class wouldn't find something similarly bad to teach as "programming basics"?

Small tweaks don't make big changes. Instead, they just give said organization more opportunities to demonstrate its essential nature.

notahacker• 15 years ago

My view is the average teacher is just about competent enough to teach the average Londoner where to find the fonts on Word but would probably do more harm than good when it came to teaching the theory behind programming.

pbhjpbhj3• 15 years ago

>Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? //

>adding an extra topic that will only be useful to a small number of people would be wasteful. //

Just as a comparison. In Wales, Welsh language is taught throughout school and in every lesson. Yet English language is understood and used by nearly everyone in Wales and Welsh language is used by less than 20% of people. In addition Wales is the only country where it has any significant use. Welsh language is taught as the most important subject.

Clearly UK curricula don't look at utility or life application as the most important aspects of subjects taught.

Yes, it's a bit of a bête noire for me.

>how much better do you think they would be able to do their job if they knew how to program //

A little? How much better can they do their job if they know how to do algebra, or order a sandwich in France?

I'm not sure I agree with jgrahamc but I'm not sure I'm with you either ...

samarudge4• 15 years ago

Yes, Welsh is pretty much useless, but we're talking about introducing a new subject.

Maths is useful in a lot more situations than programming would be, I bet most people don't realize how often they use maths without realizing. Things like algebra are about logic, deducing things, figuring things out. French is, again, a subject that can be dropped at 16 and not a core subject. I didn't study French at school (Technically I should have done Spanish but that was the same time I had my SLS instead)

jodrellblank• 15 years ago

And we justify mandatory schooling by saying society is complicated and there are some things people need to learn to be able to live reasonably.

How does Wales justify locking up young humans and forcing them to learn something which isn't in their best interests, something which isn't in their society's best interests, something which cannot survive on its own out of interested people keeping it alive by choice? It's abusive and should be stopped.

How much better can they do their job if they know how to do algebra, or order a sandwich in France?

Arguing that programming skills wouldn't help... have you not worked in an office and seen first-hand the dreadful computer literacy? Even among IT and technical people? Skill in bulk manipulating information would help a lot of people, if they realised it was possible and something they could potentially do, I think.

rdtsc• 15 years ago

> If you took a random person you passed on a busy London street at lunch time, how much better do you think they would be able to do their job if they knew how to program?

How many would benefit from learning more physics, microbiology, or reading more Shakspeare? I would say it is about the same.

For example a specific example from the article is Excel. I might not like and would never use it personally but it is useful to teach it to kids. They can just use it to track their personal finances to start with. A lot of businesses use it. Knowing how to automate things in can be a great timesaver. Heck, just knowing that it is possible to automate things in it using scripting would be good to know.

There is game programming, and that can be used to attract kids to go and study programming in depth. I think we would benefit as a society from kids wanting to go into CS more than wanting to go into Communications or English majors. Then there is the whole web aspect of it.

Then just basic literacy of using the web & the privacy implications are very important to know. Network privacy and security is one of those things along law, personal finance & propaganda techniques that should be taught first and foremost in schools because those are probably going to be important in anyone's lives -- more so than ancient history or even learning Visual Basic programming. But it seems important & practical subjects like that are excluded from our (American) education system, not sure about the British one...

JoeAltmaier2• 15 years ago

Honestly, school time is not that scarce. An adult can learn to read and write in a couple of days of intensive practice. Maths can take longer, but have the same issues as programming - how many cruise directors use more than arithmetic?

Learning programming can be easily misconstrued. Lets call it logic, algorithms and applied maths. Now is it a good idea? Sure, and its something a hypothetical cruise director could actually use.

samarudge4• 15 years ago

>school time is not that scarce

For students, no, for teachers, yes. And for the budgets? Picture yourself as a financer at a school, you have to fund more teachers, introduce a new subject and overall you're getting less money per student.

civilian• 15 years ago

Okay, so, funny story: one of my programmer buddies worked for a cruise line. He's an almost-autistic free-radical type of programmer. After fixing up their website, he wrote a new application for the onboard ship customer management system. (The current one is atrocious and a decade old.)

But the project never got the green light and was killed.

If a cruise director had some experience in programming, and realized that the system could be better, then the project could have been pushed for more! Maybe it would actually be on the 30-ish ships in their fleet!

stan_rogers• 15 years ago

The word programming is distorting the real value of the subject, I think. It's easy to think of programming as something that is done with and to computers exclusively, but that's a sort of guilt by association.

Programming, at its base, is really a method for understanding and defining a process. It's about breaking a big task down into its component pieces. It's about turning one large, nearly intractable problem into a series of easily understood and fundamentally soluable problems.

If programming is taught in this context, with an emphasis on methods for problem-solving in general rather than language syntax in particular, its utility in the everyday life of the average person becomes a lot more obvious. I used simple programming as a part of a worker re-education program that included basic literacy and numeracy, and it proved to be very effective in the overall success of the students -- even with no expectation that programming would play a part in their later lives. It made other things easier for them to do, and if that's the only value that the "average" student gets out of a programming course, it seems like enough, doesn't it?

secoif• 15 years ago

Nothing before in the history of man has had so much potential to change lives as programming does. And at little more cost than time. Incredible advances in every conceivable field are enabled by computers which must be driven by programmers.

We need more people to understand programming from a young age so they can intuitively understand and more effectively use their devices' capabilities, and also so there are more people in more fields equipped to identify + communicate positions where software could provide automation or assistance.

danmaz74• 15 years ago

In this age, computers are everywhere and it looks like they will be even more in the foreseeable future. Even if you're not going to be a programmer, having an idea about what a computer (in the general sense of the word) really is and how it works can only be useful. At least as much as knowing how photosynthesis works, and probably more.

Add to this that programming can really help kids develop their problem solving abilities AND their creativity, and that it can be done in a fun way, and I would argue that the introduction of programming could be very beneficial to the development of kids.

0x12• 15 years ago

Because computer literacy is much like the ability to read and write these days.

A computer is a very powerful tool that is available to pretty much everybody in the developed world. Computer literacy translates into a workforce that is able to compete internationally from a position of strength rather than weakness. Think about the industrial age, one group gets to use all the powertools, the other work with their hands and hand tools, which do you think is more productive and will result in a stronger nation economically?

MediaBehavior• 15 years ago

I concur about what you say (although it's not exactly an argument for teaching programming).

How different would the online world be if knowledge were universal about:

- copy/paste

- cmd/ctl +/- for resizing

- why password mgmt matters - and its basic principles

Self-educated web-surfers out there have amazing gaps in their knowledge - for things that are practically spinal reflexes to even a low-grade hacker like myself.

Dn_Ab• 15 years ago

Programming is a tool like maths. There are many people who whose life would be greatly enriched by a simple knowledge of ratios and estimation. Yet most claim they have no need of maths.

Programming need not be taught for its own sake. It could be an enabler together with maths. A tool for exploring concepts. A lot of maths is difficult because it is so far from everyday concepts. So it takes a great deal of effort to supply the materials needed to build the supporting mental models. von Nuemann said "In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them". One way is to drill lots of problems but this is boring and only a few people are disciplined enough to do it. Another way is to program the concept (all the maths an average person needs is finite, algorithmic and constructive), explore lots of variations, improve intuition, give a basis of attachment to motivate short quick drills to be able to then improve the model.

The power of programming is that it gives you a way to concretize abstract concepts in a virtual setting. Lessening the distance, hence making it more approachable. I have only a little doubt that I can teach a random 10 year old the basics of special relativity up to accounting for acceleration, using programming. And I am certain they would be able to learn Bayesian probability by playing with a programmable model designed to teach it.

There is also the added benefit of strengthened analytical thinking. You cannot know how a simple scripting knowledge can help a person without being them. My suspicion is it would help most people in some way. But no one can make use of something whose existence they are unaware of.

Rusky2• 15 years ago

> But no one can make use of something whose existence they are unaware of.

Exactly. Like you mentioned about ratios or estimation, imagine someone who had no idea what algebra was. If society let them claim it was useless to them, even if they never sit down and solve equations as part of their job, having a slightly deeper understanding of mathematics would influence how they interact with the world.

Even just knowing that a computer can be programmed, understanding data structures when working with office programs, understanding security when using passwords, automating things like personal finance, or understanding what they're being sold, would be a big step up. Understanding more than just mystical flickering 1s and 0s from some Hollywood movie would enable so much.

cabalamat2• 15 years ago

> While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going into computing as a career, learning specifically programming will be absolutely no help. [...] how much better do you think they would be able to do their job if they knew how to program?

Education is -- or should be -- about drawing out a learner's latent talents so they can achieve their full potential. It shouldn't merely be a narrow, Gradgrindian, process aimed solely at turning someone into an obedient wage-slave for corporations.

I think learning programming can help someone achieve their full potential in three ways:

1. programming forces someone to think very clearly and logically about a problem. This is a very useful skill, even if you never write code ever again.

2. introducing someone to programming helps them to understand computers. We are rapidly becoming a society where computers are ubiquitous, so thins will be important to them throughout their lives -- as an individual using technology, as a citizen, as a voter, as a parent, and yes, as an employee.

3. an introduction to programming will inspire some people to take it further, as a career or as a hobby.

naner• 15 years ago

Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects.

This is a false dichotomy. In High School I took classes on Weightlifting (twice), Drama, Art, French 1, Spanish 1, and was a teacher's assistant twice (what a waste that was...). There were also classes available in tractor repair, farming, ROTC, track and field, etc. Our high school was able to fit more classes in than other schools because each year was split into fall and spring with 4 classes each half.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that there's room for more and for modification. Also how about tying math into programming? Or combining reading/writing/language in beneficial ways, etc.

jxcole• 15 years ago

At the risk of making this point to death:

> If you took a random person you passed on a busy London street at lunch time, how much better do you think they would be able to do their job if they knew how to program?

A while back I was in a meeting being given a presentation that had previously been given to the CEO of our company (they were giving it to us to keep us up to date). In it, there was a quite obvious problem with the numbers where the reported percentage increase was nowhere near what the numbers suggested. I raised my hand to point it out and was mildly surprised when the manager giving the presentation told me that he didn't want to report numbers that were too high. I decided not to point out that mathematics doesn't care about what he wants to report.

So anyway, this guy who is paid lots of money at a reasonably sized company doesn't even have a passing knowledge of statistics, something that every school child was supposed to learn. Would he have been better able to do his job if he knew math? Probably. But he doesn't know math. All those years in school didn't really rub off on him.

In any case, if you were to ask how many people use literary analysis, math, art, history or science in their work the answer is going to be close to zero. It's true that lots of people write as part of their job, but most people write poorly and most writing classes focus on analyzing Shakespeare, not writing reports on employee efficiency.

Another argument for programming in schools is the same as the argument for literature in schools. Even if you never need to program in the real world being able to program implies that you have certain cognitive and logical abilities that many jobs require. For example, it is important to be logical if you are a lawyer, even though you needn't program.

I would not be prepared to dismiss coding out of hand because not many people are programmers. I bet it is more pertinent then most of the things I learned in high school.

bdfh42• 15 years ago

It is lamentable but entirely indicative of the results of modern UK education that Sandra Duggan is clearly unable to either read or comprehend an email.

A politically correct response is what is important these days - ignore the ideas, ignore the challenge.

pbhjpbhj3• 15 years ago

TBH they can't really get that many correspondence from people who're in such an elevated position in their industry. Indeed I'd be amazed if they've had any feedback on computing curriculum from more than one or two people of similar standing. In which case the response is pretty poor to say the least.

To get a reasoned response I'd imagine you'd have to get together a group of cronies from the BCS or similar and send an officially sanctioned letter?

Maro3• 15 years ago

I'm not sure why this was posted here. Based on the response, you're knocking on the wrong door?

However, the role of this Department is limited to setting the policy framework of the National Curriculum of what is taught in terms of content, attainment targets and how performance is assessed and reported. Therefore, we do not endorse, fund or promote specific resources or activities for use in schools.

jcromartie2• 15 years ago

Because teaching programming is a broad policy decision. It's exactly the sort of thing the particular department would be in charge of. If JGC had merely been suggesting a certain programming language or teaching software, then the response would have been appropriate. As it is, it sounds like they didn't understand what JGC wrote.

"Be it with Raspberry Pi computers in schools, or with some other hardware, we need to get back on top."

Rasberry Pi was just a suggestion. The broader idea of "teaching programming" was ignored.

Maro3• 15 years ago

You are right, his email was broader and not just specific to Raspberry Pi.

Although I'm still not sure what the OP expected and why this was posted here.

ErrantX2• 15 years ago

They seem to have misread his letter as proposing that the DOE support/fund/promote Raspberry Pi - I think.

The department does set the curriculum; which means they legislate on what subjects should be taught, what topics within that subject should be taught etc.

John's argument is that programming should be added to the earlier curriculum - they seem to have missed that point, but it is not something that a local authority could implement even if contacted.

jcromartie2• 15 years ago

It's obvious that they either A) didn't read the letter or B) had no clue what JGC was talking about.

wccrawford2• 15 years ago

"Therefore, we do not endorse, fund or promote specific resources or activities for use in schools."

Holy crap, nobody else agrees with this? This is a government entity refusing to grasp more control than it should have! They are actively saying that they trust their school system to improve itself organically, and they aren't not going to slow it down by mandating the tools used.

Had he left it at 'We need to promote computer understanding, not just usage', they might have bit on that and considered it as part of their mission. But instead, the mention of the Raspberry Pi made it sound like a sales call, and they don't do that. They aren't going to mandate or even recommend individual tools.

ErrantX2• 15 years ago

True; and I agree this is theoretically a nice thing.

However the net result of this is that, to take an example, school IT services range from the sublime to the dire. Almost all of them are hugely expensive contracts to major firms (say, BT) and tend to consist of poorly paid tech staff (often shared amongst a school district), old out-dated technology and overly-complex infrastructure.

At my mum's school, a primary, the teachers had 3 "new" laptops each one year, because they could not get the infrastructure right...

This is mirrored across the whole system; no one has a proper budget or equipment recommendations from the DOE. And as a result you get a hit-and-miss situation, with some schools well equipped and others a mess.

More often than not teachers will spend out of their own pocket just to be able to adequately teach a subject.

Mandating every aspect of education would be bad, I agree. But affirmative action to end the waste, provide support for equipment purchase etc. would be very welcome!

corin_• 15 years ago

This letter received in response really doesn't mean anything, it's just a generic "thank you for contacting us" letter. You'll (usually, 99 times out of 100) get a similar equivilent if you ever contact your MP, although in those cases it will generally be even less involved in the subject, along the lines of "Dear name, I agree that this matter is important and that is why I support this matter, yours, MP"

It shouldn't be taken as an indication of how well the government is handling this issue, just that it was treated as "yet another thing for someone unimportant to reply to". (That's not to say that they are treating it well... just that it can't be judged from this letter.)

TheCapn• 15 years ago

You make a good point. Everyone feels that their voice should be heard but forget that the government represents a lot of people. If they personally responded to each letter that was received then I'd gamble they'd be doing their job much much worse than they potentially already are.

A response from them at all means that someone took enough time to count your statistic for/against such a topic. That's a stronger position then yelling at the TV hoping they'll hear you.

majmun• 15 years ago

> " Then they suggest that I might like to contact every single local authority and school in the country. "

I suggest that you stop complaining and do just that, with programming this work can be made easy. and fun.

First start with LAs than go lower level to schools. This is one way you can prove that programming is useful for people to know. And you should report back to PCU your results. And thanks them for advice.

DanielStraight2• 15 years ago

So try again.

I'm not trying to be an ass.

Alan Turing didn't get his apology because of one email, and your country's schools aren't going to get programming classes because of one email either. If it's important, fight for it. Focusing on the setbacks is just going to bring you down.

jgrahamc6• 15 years ago

Don't worry. I'm not very good at giving up.

DanielStraight2• 15 years ago

Don't worry either, I didn't expect you to. Really, I was trying to be encouraging. Just didn't know how to make it come out that way.

Best of luck in yet another "ridiculous" quest.

chegra• 15 years ago

From reading John's letter, I was thinking bet you these guys are going to interpret it as him seeking some sort of endorsement.

I don't think he should have mentioned Raspberry Pi. It takes the letter into areas that you wouldn't want to discuss.

The letter lacked few concrete examples of what should be done to bring UK back on top of the computing world. Do we bring back the TV program? What exactly do we teach? What language do we teach? What else can be done? Could you provide examples of other country improving their computer literacy successfully. Being too vague means the person who is reading the article will have to think for themselves. Ideally, you would want them to do as little work as possible.

I think the letter was too long. For the first couple paragraphs, I was thinking would he hurry up and get to it; I need to get back to programming. I think the people in the government office reaction would be worst.

You fail to state your qualifications. In an ideal world, an appeal to authority should not work, but the care in which your material is being handled is some function of the person who writes it.

cabalamat2• 15 years ago

> From reading John's letter, I was thinking bet you these guys are going to interpret it as him seeking some sort of endorsement. I don't think he should have mentioned Raspberry Pi. It takes the letter into areas that you wouldn't want to discuss.

From a point of view of the sort of people who in fact would read the letter, you might be right.

But from the point of view of the ideal recipient of the letter -- someone who cares about computing education -- giving examples of relevant projects is the right thing to do, because examples help to get the point across. Unfortunately politicians don't get computers or the internet, which is why we need new ones who do.

Next May, Pirate Party UK will contest elections across the country; I myself intend to stand as a candidate for Edinburgh Council. We're hoping to duplicate our recent success in Berlin across the UK.

If Pirates are elected and we receive similar letters about computing education, we won't simply ignore them, we'll act on them.

joecorcoran• 15 years ago

I know somebody who writes these kind of response letters as part of her job in another area of the civil service. Her advice is to write back – outlining that your letter was misunderstood – but write to your MP rather than directly to Michael Gove. Apparently letters addressed to MPs are subject to a higher level of checking and are less likely to receive stock responses.

tim_iles• 15 years ago

For whatever e-petitions might be worth, here exists a "Teach our kids to code" petition http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/15081, started by Emma Mulqueeny (http://mulqueeny.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/teach-our-kids-to-...)

Silhouette• 15 years ago

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't see anything wrong with the reply (apart from the careless mis-spelling, obviously).

I don't know much about either John Graham-Cumming or Michael Gove personally. I do know that this is a long and, dare I say, rather rambling e-mail, which to me reads more like a lecture written to look good for a public audience than a sincere request for action by a government minister. Perhaps that is just my natural scepticisim talking -- I have no reason to believe that John actually meant it that way, and I have nothing against him based on his comments on HN -- but keep in mind that civil servants have finely tuned senses about such writing, because a lot of the people who send it are trying to set the minister up in one way or another.

A more practical problem is that the original e-mail contains almost no actionable content. The only specific detail is Raspberry Pi, which is not mentioned until the second half of the message and by the author's own description is not yet ready. Given how many doomed government IT projects surely get described as "close to completion" right up until they fail with a multi-million-pound write-off, it would hardly be surprising if no senior government figure wanted to be associated with something potentially toxic like that at this stage.

Even if the minister were willing to take a look, if it is indeed contrary to government policy to promote such specific details on a national basis, then there is little the responding civil servant can do to help except explain what the policy is and who might be able to help instead, which they did. Multi-level governments inherently set rules for which matters are to be handled at which levels, and it is futile to propose deviating from such fundamental rules in isolated cases like this.

I suspect John's intended point might have been more about the benefits of teaching kids to code in general, but I'm afraid that just doesn't come across from the message unless your audience is likely to read between the lines (see my comment about public audience above). In any case, while it may be a perfectly reasonable position to take, nothing in the e-mail suggests any specific action the minister could take to further that goal, so at best it is going to achieve a +1 in an "issues of interest" spreadsheet and a courtesy reply.

I do love the final comment, asking for a personal meeting with a secretary of state based on a quick e-mail, though. You've got to love someone with the chops to go for that right from the start. Maybe I just went to the wrong university... :-)

argv_empty• 15 years ago

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't see anything wrong with the reply (apart from the careless mis-spelling, obviously).

I have a particular problem with it: the response to "this subject ought to be included in the curriculum" was "we aren't the ones to make that change, all we do is decide what's in the curriculum."

jgrahamc6• 15 years ago

which to me reads more like a lecture written to look good for a public audience than a sincere request for action by a government minister.

I never intended this letter to be public, it was written as a letter to Gove. I made it public because I thought the reply was so sad.

I do love the final comment, asking for a personal meeting with a secretary of state based on a quick e-mail, though

You don't get what you don't ask for.

JoshPic• 15 years ago

I think it makes sense to first teach problem solving and logic from an early age, then maybe touch a little on actual programming later on.

Yes, programming may not be useful to most people, but problem solving, however, is. The ability to break a seemingly insurmountable problem into a number of smaller feasibly possible problems is an incredibly valuable skill. Then at a later stage, maybe mid-secondary school, a short programming project could be introduced, drawing from the skills learned in Logic and Problem Solving lessons. Those who become interested in programming are then encouraged to continue learning to program and those who aren't still have the skills learned in Logic and Problem Solving that they can apply across a vast number of careers.

dramaticus3• 15 years ago

Kinder, Küche, Kirche

Kaiser, Krieg, Kanonen

tomelders2• 15 years ago

I challenge anyone to get a response from an MP that doesn't include the word "however", followed by a complete dismissal.

pnathan• 15 years ago

In my occasional letters to Congressmen, I usually get, "Thanks for your letter", followed by a dismissal. :-)

tomelders2• 15 years ago

Sign the petition: https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/15218

DanBC2• 15 years ago

Michael Gove is the one who talks about "Newton's laws of thermodynamics", so what did the OP expect? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/18/michael-gove...)

tcarnell• 15 years ago

Well as nobody tought the founders to Google, Facebook or Microsoft to program a computer - especially at school, there is absolutely no logical reason to teach kids such a specific skill. The programmers I know, and notable the better ones are all self-taught (with the help of the astonishingly open and supportive IT community).

I think the author of the letter is somewhat confused as to Eric Schmidt's sentiment. I think schools could, or perhaps should provide better resources and encourage students to learn more about computer technology, but I agree with the other comments that core subjects like language, maths and science are far more important.

However, there is no reason why teachers could not discuss, when relevant the history, technology, people and science behind the British computer engineering legacy.

wccrawford2• 15 years ago

I got my start in Elementary school. Sadly, it was an advanced class and not available to everyone. (You had to skip a day of regular classes each week, and your grades couldn't fall behind in them... So you essentially did 6 days worth of school work every week, instead of 5.)

They taught us the basics of programming, and that was about it. But it was enough to light the flame and I've been passionate about it ever since.

It's okay for people to be bad at some things, or even not care about them. Schools should spend more time introducing arts and skills to students. Let the students decide what they want to study beyond the basics that everyone needs to know.

droz• 15 years ago

The ultimate goal ought to be to teach students Computational thinking. How it is taught - mathematics, programming or otherwise - is irrelevant.

AlexC042• 15 years ago

I was a high school ICT (computer) teacher in the UK for five years. Unless there are some serious changes to the political climate, programming will never fit well in schools.

The biggest reason being that programming is hard... which means that some students won't do well.

There is a very serious problem with the politics of the UK education system because of the results-oriented culture.

Firstly, OFSTED publishes a list of the best schools in the UK. These results are based on inspections, but the inspections are just a sham/cover to allow them to rank schools based on their test results.

You see, kids who get graded in the UK school system all write the exact same exam, in the exact same hour globally (accounting for timezones). This standardized testing, allows for students and schools to be compared against a single "fair" yardstick.

Now schools that have the students who get the highest average score are declared "the best" (after a cursory, sham inspection) the ones that score lowest are declared "the worst" and sometimes closed.

So... student performance is suddenly directly related to teacher income.

So teachers start teaching kids how to pass the test. Administrators guide their students into classes that have higher averages... you know, the ones that are easier to pass?

That's part of the reason why the GNVQ in ICT became so popular - the least able students could get 4 "A" grade credits easily. I mean, students who sometimes had to be reminded to breathe could walk out with 4 "A" credits.

Some schools who learned how to exploit that system found themselves "vaulting" up the league tables ... bonuses all arround! Headteachers were suddenly being classed as "Superheads" ... silly crap like that.

Anyways, trouble with a comprehensive "proper" programming course... it's hard. Nobody is getting a knighthood in education for doing it the hard-way.

I tried teaching a group of 12 year olds how to write video games in flash. They not only loved it, but it wasn't that hard. One or two got as far as a working PONG. Unfortunately, I was so far off curriculum at that point it wasn't funny. I could only give programming lessons as a special treat.

The rest of the time it was where to click in Microsoft office.

If we were able to do programming at the High School level, maybe I wouldn't have left teaching. The politics of OFSTED would probably have driven me out anyways the UK education system is actually doing a huge disservice to kids.

HOWEVER* politicians can "look tough" by spouting bollocks about how strict they are with respect to educational standards. Truth is they're light years behind places like Australia and Canada. Worst part is the politicians of the world all seem to be scrambling to match the UK system (because it gives them something to look tough about).

anon1385• 15 years ago

The reason is quite simple: zealous adherence to the religion of free-markets. According to the government parents are forever demanding 'choice' (actually I think what most of them want is for the local school to be decent, and not to have to ship their kid 50 miles a day to some distant school…). So of course parents must be provided with some way to compare schools, no matter how statistically meaningless it might be, and thus league tables were given great significance.

The current government plan to take this even further by allowing private companies to run state school for profit. Thus further incentivising cheating, manipulation of test results, pushing students into easy subjects, teaching to tests, not allowing entry to students who won't perform well, not allowing students to sit tests if they might not get top marks, underfunding of 'hard' subjects and so on. Parent's power to actually complain about a school is reduced as well: schools will no longer be run by democratically elected local authorities, but by the largely unelected board of governors. If you have a complaint they won't deal with (most schools won't even tell you the names of the governors), you have to go directly to the secretary of state and, as this submission demonstrates, getting an answer from Mr Gove is very difficult (no doubt you would be fobbed off with a "we don't interfere with the running of individual schools" response).

AlexC042• 15 years ago

Excellent points and I agree completely. They're also already in pretty deep with respect to privatization. Since (at least one of) the curriculum publishers and standardized testing boards (eg: Edexcel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edexcel) is privately owned.

That leads to tremendous investment in lobbying and special interest type stuff, but actually takes away an individual teacher's ability to tailor the curriculum to the interests of the students.

joelhooks• 15 years ago

Government education is tuned for creating hordes of marginally competent workers well versed in the carrot<->stick of long term repetitive menial task work. This isn't an accident and is highly unlikely to change anytime soon. To solve the problem for our family we choose to home educate our kids. It is awesome.

wbhart• 15 years ago

When I read the first letter I carelessly didn't check the header and assumed that it was the "UK government response..." that you spoke of. I thought, wow, someone in our government is really switched on. They've cross referenced their letter, they are aware of the history of the subject and they understand why Britain is so woefully behind in this area. And moreover, they are reaching out to computing experts (albeit ones that contacted them first) to help with the project and meet with them in person. Awesome.

Then I read the second letter and recognised the unimaginative, bureaucratic style that British people have come to love and cherish. "Oh, how can I get rid of this person and make them someone else's problem."

Internationally, attitudes towards programming in academic circles are finally changing. There is right at this moment a real sea-change in the air. I don't know if that is due to Veovodsky's work on a new "Univalent Foundations for Mathematics" or whether people are just waking up to how much work it actually takes to bring academic computing work up to industry standards. But there is a change.

Unfortunately I am yet to see evidence of it in Britain, however. Students still remain woefully underprepared in this area and don't seem to develop a natural affinity for programming except in extremely rare cases. And the academic attitude to computing is still very standoffish on the whole.

nickthedart• 15 years ago

Meanwhile, another bit of the gov't appears to be working on this! http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2011/09/16/247916/Gov...

UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

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