468 Capital raises $400M to back European startups

https://www.axios.com/468-capital-raises-400-million-to-back-european-startups-56cac497-e2c7-499a-a595-268bfe7699e3.html

by doener • 4 years ago

37 69 4 years ago

axios.com

Barrin92• 4 years ago

The European VC scene has actually been doing pretty well over the last two years and grown fast.[1] Seems slightly under-discussed. What surprised me is how much money even Thiel seems to be pouring into Europe who I never associated with being bullish on the continent.

[1]https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/25/venture-capitalists-fell-i...

cinntaile• 4 years ago

Techcrunch is such an annoying site, I can never open their links because I get redirected through a tracking site and that gets blocked.

mupuff12342• 4 years ago

It seems like money was thrown at anything with a heartbeat in the last 2 years - I'm not really sure what to make of it (inflation/low interest rates/bubble?)

Hokusai• 4 years ago

I just read that as 486 capital, I'm getting old.

CalRobert8• 4 years ago

Great news - I am biased because I moved to Europe from Northern California and might be looking for post-hoc justification for giving up millions of USD over the course of my career but I really think that Europe has a lot to offer.

With public healthcare, good social services, reduced transit cost, etc. a bootstrapper can have a MUCH longer runway here - almost indefinite, if you get your expenses lower than Jobseeker's allowance (our house is paid off which helps). You can hire engineers for a third the cost of the US, too.

jb1991• 4 years ago

Jobseeker's allowance

What do you mean by this term?

tokai• 4 years ago

Unemployment benefits that hinges on you proving that you are actively seeking employment.

krtwllndr• 4 years ago

with a lot of people in tech eyeing to move the opposite direction what made you come to Europe?

CalRobert8• 4 years ago

I was sick of my boss expecting me to read emails on the weekend, I already spent all my vacation time in Europe anyway (mostly DE/AT), and I couldn't stand the short vacations. My wife only got 1 week off a year. At the time, it was much more affordable too - 800 euro a month to rent in the middle of a capital city and live car free. Sadly costs have risen dramatically.

It was meant to be a 6-12 month stay on a working holiday visa but we decided to stick around, and I got sponsored.

ChuckNorris899• 4 years ago

I moved to Europe from Northern California

Europe is not a single country but a collection of vastly different countries with different opportunities and issues. May I ask which country that is?

almost indefinite, if you get your expenses lower than Jobseeker's allowance

That's not universally true. In some EU countries jobseeker's allowance, as the name suggests, is paid to you as long as you prove you're looking for employment, not to boot-strap your side hustle as you please, unfortunately. And to get unemployment you first need to have at least 2 years of employment, at least in Austria. You can't just show up and start cashing unemployment checks.

our house is paid off which helps

I bet that helps. Ballooning housing costs is a major issue in Europe's biggest metro areas and most young people don't have this luxury and end up spending a significant portion of their take home pay on it, so I feel you're situation is far more priviledged than the average European.

ftth_finland3• 4 years ago

In Finland you can get an amount equal to basic unemployment benefits to start a business for a year.

You can get last resort social benefits basically forever if you aren’t actively working much or don’t run a business.

CalRobert8• 4 years ago

Certainly, but a lot of the things I like are applicable to most of Europe. I moved to Ireland.

You're right re: JSA and JSB (Jobseeker's allowance and benefit) but my neighbours have somehow been on it for 13 years now.....

And yes, I was lucky to buy a cheap house in 2019. But it was under 100k and derelict, I've been fixing it up. Fortunately it has gigabit fibre and is a bike ride from the train.

sofixa• 4 years ago

In some EU countries jobseeker's allowance, as the name suggests, is paid to you as long as you prove you're looking for employment, not to boot-strap your side hustle as you please, unfortunately.

True, but some have awesome provisions for business creation. For instance in France you can get all of the money you would have received as job seeekers' allowance ( allocation chômage) as startup capital for your own business.

jacquesm• 4 years ago

Job seekers allowance is not meant to support immigrants forever without actually seeking a job. That's abusing the system, especially if you're from a wealthy country and never paid into the system in the first place.

CalRobert8• 4 years ago

Fortunately my example was hypothetical, and I don't expect to avail of this option myself. Plenty of my Irish friends were pretty cool with being on JSA and not trying _too_ hard to find a job.

Growing up abroad and moving to a country in your thirties means you draw rather little benefit but pay in to the system massively. Because of Ireland's _extremely_ progressive/redistributive tax system, I have already paid more in to the system than a median earner here will in their entire career. Which is fine, that's the deal I signed up for, but I hardly think if I found myself on JSA for a while and noodled on a side project it makes me a leech.

roenxi• 4 years ago

The problem Europe has isn't that they lack money, the problem is that all the things US tech companies do to get ahead are illegal in Europe. Out of FAANG, European regulators are decidedly against the F/G and probably have reservations about at least one of the As. I wouldn't feel off guard if it turns out Netflix were impractical in the EU due to challenges both regulatory and linguistic.

mschuster914• 4 years ago

the problem is that all the things US tech companies do to get ahead are illegal in Europe.

FWIW a lot of what US tech companies were doing was actually illegal or at least very dark grey in the US too. Skirting taxi regulations (Uber), hotel regulations (AirBnB) or employment law (all of the "gig economy" startups), everything done under "better ask for forgiveness than for permits"... the problem is twofold:

For one, personal liability of corporate executives has fallen out of favor. Unless you're ordering the outright murder of someone, the "corporate veil" will protect you. That means, as long as you budget in the correct-ish amount of fines, you can do whatever the fuck you want with impunity.

But the main problem is that the political system as a whole isn't very agile to react - it takes years for binding court orders if the opponent has good lawyers, the legislative branch is even slower to react, and both the legislative and the executive branch is often enough either too incompetent or outright bought off. And the "fourth branch" aka media isn't much better either - most media is under the control of big conglomerates or oligarchs.

username_my1• 4 years ago

sounds like the German's auto industry.

maybe instead of focusing why others are successful just go out and do your own thing? at the end Europe is full of unicorns and more startups are coming out of their teams.

The only thing I really see missing in Europe is the lack of dream / vision / going after big goals and having others believe that's possible. but even that gets easier each time you look around and spot a unicorn.

so just go build something

raverbashing4• 4 years ago

Europe has isn't that they lack money

"Lack" is a bad word but everything that's not around SV gets less funding. Yes, even in the US

is that all the things US tech companies do to get ahead are illegal in Europe

So maybe don't do illegal BS and it will work out. In fact I'd say there's a huge market to be explored but enterpreneurs try the same stuff that works in the US without thinking about the market characteristics

it turns out Netflix were impractical in the EU due to challenges both regulatory and linguistic

Netflix works just fine in Europe.

cowl2• 4 years ago

This is such an absurd view. If they did illegal things they would not be able to operate in EU. While some expectations of what is considered acceptable or not have changed in Europe in meanwhile, it doesn't mean they were illegal in the first place. The second point you make is a true problem, the market is fragmented by too many regulations so the cost of establishing a company to the full EU is much greater than establishing it in US. But this makes a case to harmonize more the market. After all it's supposed to be a single market. but the "Single market" part is enforced only for physical goods and digital services goods are still not considered. It's Much easier for the industry Lobby to find a supporter in the fractured EU than in the US and EU in itself is very protectionist of existing business. That's why it will be almost impossible to fund any disrupting Company in EU

capableweb3• 4 years ago

If they did illegal things they would not be able to operate in EU

The arm of the law might not catch everything, and when it does work, sometimes it works slowly.

Companies like Uber and AirBnb got ahead by skirting the law, and had to change their products in some European countries (like Spain) because lawmakers eventually saw what they were doing. AirBnb are now required to ask for tax ID, and Uber had add artificial delays in order to fit within the law that existed. But when they initially launched, they didn't do these things, it was only after pressure that they changed.

b3orn2• 4 years ago

There have been quite a few social networks in Europe, some of which were more or less direct copies of Facebook at the time. Their decline started around the time Facebook became popular in there. There have been european streaming services years before Netflix was available there and there still are some, mostly owned by TV corporations. I think a lot of european startups focused to much on their starting country, probably lacking the funding to expand beyond their starting country. Their decline then is usually linked to an american competitor entering the european market, having outgrown their local market and having better funding they tend to provide a more rounded service. The only counterexample I can think of is Spotify as they seem to have never really focused on just one country.

capableweb3• 4 years ago

The only counterexample I can think of is Spotify as they seem to have never really focused on just one country.

Spotify was only available in Sweden for the initial 3 years, and after that they launched in the UK as well. 5 years after the local launch, they expanded into the US.

doener• 4 years ago

Berlin’s Zalando is another counter example being now bigger than the US original Zappos.

CalRobert8• 4 years ago

The Collisons don't seem to be breaking any laws, yet they started Stripe in California, not Ireland.

It's complicated but I do feel like, at least comparing Ireland and California, there's a lot of tall-poppy syndrome going on. I told some Irish friends I wanted to build my own house and they thought I was crazy and said it was a terrible idea. I told some Californian friends* and they thought it was awesome and wanted to come help build it.

Learned helplessness is bad enough but we're outright _teaching_ helplessness to young people.

*disclaimer: they live in Oregon now

raverbashing4• 4 years ago

For real, the feeling that "you can do it" is probably 80% of it

And I'll give it to you that the Irish are one of the least DIY people around Europe.

(though I can totally understand being enthusiastic about building a house in California weather vs. Irish)

mathverse4• 4 years ago

Eg. net income calculator for Austria: https://onlinerechner.haude.at/Brutto-Netto-Rechner/

People rarely make 80k/year here and everything here is expensive af. I dont recommend anyone young and ambitious to work in tech here.

heurisko3• 4 years ago

Do you have some figures, e.g. rent for one bedroom apartment, cost of an average meal in a restaurant, cost of a season travel pass?

Because otherwise it's difficult to judge. I sometimes read other countries complain about their awful rail system, and it turns out "the trains are sometimes 5 minutes late on Wednesdays", as they're used to punctual service at all other times.

mathverse4• 4 years ago

You can check numbeo for this. For me this was NEVER relevant. Only what mattered was disposable income.

mschuster914• 4 years ago

People rarely make 80k/year here and everything here is expensive af.

The thing is, you earn less on paper than in the US, but your total cost of living (and thus, your "available" income) is way lower, too:

- healthcare is cheap and universally available, no need to stuff away money in HSAs to account for a sudden 100k$ bill from a broken leg or a million dollar bill from cancer

- public education for your children is free, you don't need to pay for private schools or (later on) for university

- housing costs are drastically lower than the US

- no need to stuff away money for pension because we actually have working government-backed pensions

- way less commute expenses - we tend to have working public transport and even if you commute by car, the distances involved are way less

- we have government-mandated vacation time - at the least 20 days a year, most employers offer around the 30 day range - and unlimited as-needed sick time, which also means you don't have to stuff away money for unpaid time off.

mathverse4• 4 years ago

- healthcare is cheap and universally available, no need to stuff away money in HSAs to account for a sudden 100k$ bill from a broken leg or a million dollar bill from cancer

Hmm I wonder where this mythical cheap healthcare is...If you are not really sick (and most young people are not) you typically pay for things anyway (dental care)

- public education for your children is free, you don't need to pay for private schools or (later on) for university

I dont have children? And judging by birth rates a lot of people dont as well.

- housing costs are drastically lower than the US

Are housing costs relative to tech salaries really lower than the US?

- no need to stuff away money for pension because we actually have working government-backed pensions

Again as a young, ambitious individual in Tech I would rather have more disposable income than rely on a ponzi scheme that's the gov-backed pension system.

- way less commute expenses - we tend to have working public transport and even if you commute by car, the distances involved are way less

And we live in cramped,tiny,noisy,apartments...I would rather commute from a suburb and have a house with a garden.

- we have government-mandated vacation time - at the least 20 days a year, most employers offer around the 30 day range - and unlimited as-needed sick time, which also means you don't have to stuff away money for unpaid time off.

Unlimited PTOs or european level PTOs are very common in US tech companies.

ChuckNorris899• 4 years ago

- no need to stuff away money for pension because we actually have working government-backed pensions

Lol, NO. Every Gen Z to Millennial European I talked to knows that our pyramid pension system is a scam and will collapse by the time we'll retire. Unless we happen to die before we can reitre at the age of 85 or whatever it will be increased to until then.

If you want to survive off your pension in 30-50 years, then you'd better have made some solid investments, otherwise your government pension will be worthless by then.

throwawayarnty3• 4 years ago

I think the main factor is how many kids you have.

No kids: USA > Europe

1 kid: they are similar

2 kids or more: Europe > USA

In the USA each kid is an extra 3000 usd a month expense at least, more if one goes private and include university tuition.

How parents can pay for two or more kids’s education in USA (or UK) is beyond me.

With two or more kids in USA you essential force your children into wage slavery by going into huge amounts of college debt.

mupuff12342• 4 years ago

no need to stuff away money for pension because we actually have working government-backed pensions

That doesn't happen magically, it's being deducted from your paycheck (i.e you are stuffing away money).

dagw2• 4 years ago

way less commute expenses

I doubt that, or at least it is very dependent on where you live. Both cars, gas and parking (as most employers in the US seem to offer free parking for employees) is generally much cheaper in the US. And while most places in Europe have (more or less) working public transport it is quite expensive. In the US I've used public transport in New York City, Chicago and Washington DC and they all had significantly cheaper public transport than here in Sweden for example.

CalRobert8• 4 years ago

If you're European, it seems like your best bet, if you can pull it off, is to:

* get your nice free college in Europe

* go make a mountain of cash in California

* come back and retire in your 30's and start a family.

but that depends on a lot of things going right. I'd rather raise a family in most of Europe, and retire in Europe. But I can't deny that if I'd stayed in California I'd probably have $1-2 million more. And the tax structures here make FIRE _very_ difficult, depending on where you are. Portugal is appealing if your income is foreign (check out the NHR program), and Germany allows about 12k per year in capital gains tax-free if I recall.

b3orn2• 4 years ago

Germany allows about 12k per year in capital gains tax-free if I recall.

It's 801€ per year, but you can deduct losses up to 20k.

ChuckNorris899• 4 years ago

I dont recommend anyone young and ambitious to work in tech here.

Austria is, with few exceptions, a very bad market for tech/IT careers. Oversupply of talent but low VC investments, small market with focus on networking, culture that values middle managers way more than ICs, archaic culture with too much emphasis on titles and degrees, high taxes, poor fiber infrastructure in cities, hyper conservative cash-based society, inflexibility to remote work and freelancing for foreign companies due to complex government bureaucracy, high real estate prices(for buying), non-competes are legal and enforceable, all-in contracts with zero overtime pay, 25 vacation days standard for most tech workers, company benefits are non existent unless you count free coffee and a banana, companies focusing more on hiring seniors and rarely hiring or training juniors, almost no product based SW companies with the IT industry being mostly service based (in other words, a cost center); I could go on.

Quality of life is great though but tech careers here are a joke, even Eastern Europe has better and more exiting opportunities now due to the influx of outsourcing from US/UK unicorns.

yread• 4 years ago

For me the biggest advantage is the relative equality. Not that there are no billionaires but if I go to a restaurant I don't have to feel bad for the waiter because they are getting a fair salary not that much lower than mine. And they don't have to feel super envious of my tech salary. And it's nice that if something bad happens to them (or me!) they will be taken care of - with healthcare or social housing as needed.

From over here, US seems constantly at an edge of civil war/revolution. Lots of desperate people that jump at the first opportunity to riot and loot stuff.

pcwein• 4 years ago

Very happy to be working with 468 - suuuper cool folks :)

468 Capital raises $400M to back European startups

Related Stories