The disappearance of Japan’s “third gender”

https://daily.jstor.org/the-disappearance-of-japans-third-gender/

by Thevet • 4 years ago

52 88 4 years ago

daily.jstor.org

mogadsheu3• 4 years ago

That’s not really a gender role being defined in the paper, it’s a role within the male gender. I’d call it a phase, which was formally denoted in society.

I would liken the title to males before their bar mitzvah being considered a third gender, a definition which very few people would ascribe.

elcapitan• 4 years ago

As an object of desire for men and women, they had sex with both genders. The intricate social rules that governed the appearance of Wakashu also regulated their sexual behavior. With adult men, Wakashu assumed a passive role, with women, a more active one. Relationships between two Wakashu were not tolerated. Any sexual relationship with men ended after a Wakashu completed his coming-of-age ceremony.
Their most important relationship would be with an older man, which often had both a sexual and a teacher-student element.

That sounds pretty much like a gender role?

makeitdouble2• 4 years ago

That’s a role that can only be assumed by one of the gender, which is not the same IMO.

To pull out an analogy straight from the trash, teen girls also have a special position in Japan today. Coupled with the school uniform they have a social niche that is apart from any others, but I wouldn’t call that a “gender” nor “gender role”.

friedturkey• 4 years ago

I think there’s a train of thought in western (and particularly Americanized society) to see everything as some form of gender grouping when it’s not.

I’ve also seen people who are overly prescriptive and “liberal” with gender terms being offended on behalf of other cultures. Like people being angry about calling Thai ladyboys “ladyboys” and not “women”, when basically every ladyboy self-identifies as a ladyboy.

Most people don’t go around thinking “I do X so that means I must be B gender.” But that’s increasingly common in western society, especially among progressives, and it’s wild, to be frank.

zozbot2342• 4 years ago

Would you call the Greek erômenos a gender role, too? Now, this would actually help make sense of the otherwise puzzling notion of 'effeminacy', which was quite important to the Classical world but tends to be disregarded nowadays. So I'm not saying that it couldn't be a worthwhile perspective, it's just not the most common one.

cplusplusfellow• 4 years ago

It sounds a lot more like sexual abuse to me.

mogadsheu3• 4 years ago

Gender role != gender

Author explicitly states ‘third’, suggesting there’s male, female, and wakashu, which is not the case. It’s male and female, with wakashu as a subset of male.

I’m convinced the author is just trying to get attention and be provocative/make a political statement.

beebmam• 4 years ago

Small nit here (and a common misunderstanding among non-jews): one becomes a bar/bat mitzvah

mogadsheu3• 4 years ago

Thank you!

So a bar/bat mitzvah is a title or a state of being, and not a party/ritual?

Tagbert• 4 years ago

I had thought that a mitzvah was a religious duty or deed.

staticman2• 4 years ago

On your "bar/ bat mitzvah" correction: The liberal, american jews I know don't talk this way.

And for example here's a quote from Seinfeld:

"Elaine: I need someone to go with me to Mr. Lippman's son's Bar Mitzvah."

teakettle426• 4 years ago

Furthermore, as a role, it was largely the result of barbaric cultural norms, and trying to reframe it as a "third gender" is ethically bereft.

In societies where women are treated as valuable familial property, normalized abuse of male children and adolescents is also often prevalent.

The same article could be written about Afghanistan's "dancing boys"; they have unique social positions, rules, hairstyles, and forms of dress, wearing clothes "similar to those worn by unmarried young women".

We rightfully recognize it as sexual slavery and child prostitution, not a third gender.

bencollier49• 4 years ago

That's an interesting parallel with St. Paul's position on sexual morality. He appears to condemn varieties of homosexual behaviour, but it's in the context of institutionalised behaviour in Roman society which possibly parallels that in Afghanistan today.

throwawaysea2• 4 years ago

I’m not sure the Japanese concept here is the same thing as what we call trans today. This article seems to portray a more societally enforced “role” for this third gender rather than treating it as an “expression” or “identity”. But I do wonder why Western (progressive / left / whatever) views are insistent on additional genders being hierarchically related to traditional genders (like transwomen being a subset of women) whereas older societies like some Asian ones have a catch-all third gender approach that placed them alongside the two typical genders. To me the latter makes more sense, because there are clear and significant differences between trans and non trans people, so having a new category feels consistent and natural.

makeitdouble2• 4 years ago

I would guess, for one we have a learned tendency to classify things and rank them. Libraries’ DDC comes to mind, where we tried to force an clean order on basically the whole universe.

Second would be that christian societies have a very clear cut Adam/Eve dichotomy that I think was enforced way more than other places. Having genders hanging out of the dichotomy becomes more difficult than in laxer societies.

cassonmars• 4 years ago

I don’t think there’d be significant objection to the notion of transgender folks being recognized as transgender if it weren’t for the fact that trans people experience significant amounts of discrimination explicitly associated with that distinction, in the context of a society that perceives a gender binary.

lagadu3• 4 years ago

The gender binary is arguably one of the strongest and most deeply-rooted concepts of western societies. Because of it I suspect it's a lot easier to accept that some people belong to the category that they weren't assigned at birth rather than accepting that gender has no business with being a binary system and is completely independent from sex.

I see it as baby steps, hopefully we'll get there someday.

ImprobableTruth4• 4 years ago

What is a coherent (non-recursive) definition of gender that is completely independent from sex?

To me it seems like you're just left with 'subculture' at that point, but I think that's missing something very core to gender, namely sexuality.

jl63• 4 years ago

You could compare to Samoa’s “fa'afafine”. Gender non-conformance exists in most cultures. The western analysis of gender non-conformance results in what we call “trans”, but other cultures have had, and continue to have, different approaches.

watwut2• 4 years ago

No. Being gender non-conforming and being trans are two massively different things. I am gender non-comforming in. I am not trans at all. Whenever I read about trans, I can't relate to it and their feelings, issues etc are puzzle to me. I can relate to what other gender non-conforming people say perfectly fine.

Also, seems to me that being gender non conforming is much much less issue then being trans. To the point it is not much issue while being trans seems to sux.

dragonwriter5• 4 years ago

But I do wonder why Western (progressive / left / whatever) views are insistent on additional genders being hierarchically related to traditional genders (like transwomen being a subset of women)

Er, they aren’t.

First of all, “transwoman” (or, as many will inform you is correct “trans woman”) isn’t an additional gender. The gender is “woman”. “trans” is not a gender identity, it is a statement about the relation of the gender identity to the socially ascribed gender (often called “sex”) assigned at birth.

Second of all, the actual “additional” genders, i.e., those outside of the binary, are, well, outside of the binary, not “heirarchically related” or even mapped to that binary.

yucky7• 4 years ago

If transwoman = woman, wouldn't it logically follow that woman = transwoman?

cosmin8002• 4 years ago

What is the point of this article? More 'minor attracted person' propaganda? More tries to push pedophilia into normality? Key points: "Gender roles in Edo Japan recognized an in-between position for young men, called Wakashu, that was erased as Japan westernized.", "Wakashu usually ranged between seven to early twenties in age....", "Wakashu were connected to sexuality. As youth, they were considered largely free from the burdens and responsibilities of adulthood but regarded as sexually mature... " so it used to be perfectly fine having sex with 7 years old kids before the narrow minded westerners "invaded" Japan.

This article is not about gender, is about normalizing pedophilia.

spoiler2• 4 years ago

I see how you jumped to that conclusion, but I think you're conflating two things. First, back then it was sadly very common for children to be considered sexuality mature (age of consent in some European countries is still 13). That's been largely resolved by legal frameworks today (paedophiles still exists, but everyone agrees what they're doing is bad)

And the other idea you're conflating is that (which I think the article dispels) is that feudal Japan consider youth to be tied to age. For all we know, it might be a concept unfamiliar to us westerners that got projected onto "youth" to make the article approachable to Western audiences.

gdfsssdgfv• 4 years ago

In the US, sometimes less

"In the United States, as late as the 1880s most states set the minimum age [of consent] at ten to twelve (in Delaware, it was seven in 1895)."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent>

Youden• 4 years ago

It's an article that factually reports an aspect of Japanese history, it's not "pushing" anything. The only point it makes is about LGBTQ+:

"Multifaceted gender expressions and LGBTQ+ rights are constantly negotiated and contested. While in recent decades, gender definitions and LGBTQ+ rights have expanded in many parts of the world, Wakashu illustrate how quickly more open and fluid understandings of gender and sex can be repressed and erased."

riedel• 4 years ago

Classical antiquity also had different gender roles. I think the clash of cultures narration in the sense of nations is not helpful and could be an easy quick conclusion from the article. It must be made clear that it is part of a nationalistic narration that things are 'naturally' one way in 'our' culture. Ethics and moral need to be always be renegotiated and adjusted. Going back to the past is often not a good idea. Understanding that things can change is a good thing and should be motivating. However, examples of societies that moved towards multifaceted gender would be more encouraging.

cosmin8002• 4 years ago

I think (one of) the article purpose(s) is psychological desensitisation to the horror of what pedophilia is by having a different main narrative - number of genders, gender fluidity and introducing it as extra.

spoiler2• 4 years ago

I'm surprised at how many people here seem to take this personally. A few comments who were."against" this notion made some good points, just to taint the argument with their own insecurities about gender.

Everyone needs to understand that humans aren't "binary" in most things. Sure, some biological binarities exist, as do some social ones, but they're exceptions not rules.

I think the raise of modern gender fluidity comes as a backlash of people being forced into two binary groups.

Let's keep to simple examples (alas, I await some misguided binarist soul to tell me how the example is too simple, only to be caught in their own web of oversimplification). All men must wear blue and leather. All women must wear silky dresses.

What if you're uncomfortable in leather? What if you like yellow? You change what you wear and you're suddenly ridiculed for not being a man. So what are you?

What if you don't like silk? You're a mechanic and it gets stuck on everything, it easily gets dirty. You trip on it all the time. Even if you're not a mechanic, maybe you hate pink and like green. Why oh why can't you wear green?

Take this sitations and apply them to:

- jobs - clothes - hobbies - behaviours - interests - who you can be attracted to

And you have gender norms. Current/modern gender norms are very tightly restricted. Most people don't realise this, because gender norms are both imprinted on us by parents and society, but also because they are stereotypes. Edit: And because of this "programming head start" in childhood, a lot of people fall into this without thinking or realising. People who didn't have this programming don't have a path to follow, and they cut their own path. Sometimes it ends on the same masculine or feminine path as others of their sex, but sometimes it's a unique one.

One could argue that these binary stereotypes have had an advantage during more primitive lifestyles. But they're losing their benefits, and I'd argue they're holding society back because of these polarising views.

I don't want to get political, but religions are making this worse. I always believed religions to be tools, both personal and societal, that helped humanity thrive. However, they've become dull, and they need to be reshaped if they want to spiritually guide society forward, instead of hold it back.

ComradePhil• 4 years ago

Similar thing happened to Hijras in India during the British rule... but they didn't completely disappear and are still around.

88840-8855• 4 years ago

Another quote from the article:

" However, “youth” in Edo Japan must be understood as a more fluid term, one that is not connected solely to biological age. "

And this is why I am so very critical towards Japan. After living there, working there and being together with Japanese women I have changed my very positive opinion towards Japan.

This paedophilia thing is very big there. I can name so many instances where it just grossed me out - and I am not talking about a 29 year old dude who dates some 17 year old girl. I am speaking about real paedophilia: starting from the school uniforms in middle school over anime to laws. I was myself molested as a kid and discussed this with my Japanese ex girlfriend. Her point was: "well, this man just liked you, it is a wonderful thing".

Work culture, social pressure, blindly following orders, treating women bad, racism, ultra conservative government, the way they treat their historical debt towards Korea and China and so many things more.

It annoys me even more that so many fellow Western people are pro-Japan and adore it and love Japanese people so much. At the same time you see the same Western people who are against China, have hidden racism against the Chinese. Double-standard is very huge.

My point is: Japan has some good aspects, but most of the glue that keeps this archaic society together is worse than in societies and countries. This is my personal experience and I am triggered every time when people fetishize Japan.

solarmist6• 4 years ago

I am one of those who love Japanese pop culture, but you are 100% correct.

It very nearly soured me on Japan serval times as you mention it has you.

Many, not just questionable, but outright disturbing practices make it a very bipolar place to live.

The most vivid thing I personally experienced was going clubbing in Osaka then after closing running into a pair of girls I was dancing with at some point and I asked why they weren’t interested and the reply was that I wasn’t (physically) aggressive enough and asked too many questions. They literally didn’t want me to let them say no, so they wouldn’t have to take “responsibility” of going with me.

That night _really_ turned me off of submissiveness as being an attractive personality trait

solarmist6• 4 years ago

And more generally it makes me still hate the Japanese love of 仕方ない “It can't be helped” or 我慢 “persevere/endure it” as an all-purpose cop-outs.

Everything bad is either the first or if it's REALLY bad then they pull out the second.

It's better to just put up with it a push through than make waves.

ranguna• 4 years ago

You do know you'll find people like that literally on every country, specially in a clubbing setting.

D0rk08• 4 years ago

Spend some time on the commie app TicToc. Asian parents, usually upper-middle class mommies, set-up accounts for their prepubescent daughters to act like horny ghetto alley cats and bump and grind in skimpy clothes to the adoration of millions. This is not a Japan-only thing. The framework of laws press this behavior into different avenues, but it's widespread across Asia. If Japan "grossed you out," go live somewhere in Southeast Asia. You can still negotiate a good price for the kid of your choosing directly from the parents. Read up on Arthur C. Clarke.

Btw... I don't have "hidden racism" against Chinese... I have open hatred of the Communist Chinese Party. You're comparing organized industrial scale cannibalism to different sexual mores held on a societal level .... cough .....

solarmist6• 4 years ago

I don't think the person you're replying to would disagree with your sentiment, but that doesn't excuse dismissing their opinion and experience because it's worse elsewhere.

They are pointing out that there's plenty in Japan to make you sick and disgusted with them as a society, but Japan does a great job with the media so they have a mostly undeserved glowing reputation internationally.

You want to hate on China. More power to you, but that doesn't excuse Japan from wrong doing. As a society is has TONS of deep social issues that cause massive damage to it's own citizens and worldwide.

tsol• 4 years ago

Really how ubiquitous is this though? Pretty much everything you mention I've seen in western countries as well. I've heard people joke about this, but I don't know how true it is in reality. It's hard to judge based on anecdotes and trends, looking at America's treatment of child stars there's some very strange stuff going on in the western world as well

The disappearance of Japan’s “third gender”

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