Is Google Analytics illegal in your country?

by james_impliu • 5 years ago

323 229 5 years ago

I like the scrolling banner on the side reminiscent of a news ticker being used for static data, it adds some vibrancy to the presentation. It might be nice to have more of the globe shown on the front, since it isn't "isgoogleanalyticsillegalintheEU". I really like the color scheme too, nice job!

Cyberdog• 5 years ago

I disagree about the "ticker." Items moving on a page without my request and particularly without any purpose are annoying to me at the best.

Sadly, such nonsense is quite common in modern web design.

toqy3• 5 years ago

Plenty is wrong with the modern web, but this is harmless and seems to fit the theme well

alpaca1284• 5 years ago

I'm usually the first to complain about things like that as well as I'm very easily distracted, but in this case I think it's not that bad and looks kinda nice.

I still wish websites would not only respect the disabled autoplay setting but also stop animations completely in that state. But right now it seems crashing video player UIs are the best we can get.

BlueTemplar4• 5 years ago

Geocities might disagree about the "modern" part...

donkarma• 5 years ago

reminds me of PAYDAY 2

taubek• 5 years ago

If it is illegal in one country does it make illegal in all other EU countries as well or is this left to individual law systems of each EU member state?

BTW. your site looks great. I like the running ticker on the side.

jacquesm2• 5 years ago

As mentioned in another thread on this subject: EU privacy law is harmonized, there may be local exceptions but these are increasingly rare and over time I would expect them to fade away completely.

Note that the ruling confirms the GDPR, the EU legislation.

lmkg6• 5 years ago

As a USAian, my rough impression is that it's similar to circuit splits in Federal courts. GDPR is a Regulation (not a Directive), so it's law in all EU states. But each country's court may interpret its requirements slightly differently. A ruling from the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) would be binding on all member states. And in fact most rulings around Google Analytics are dealing with the boundaries of a CJEU ruling, Schrems II.

roblabla• 5 years ago

this kinda depends. I'm not 100% sure what kind of "law" the GDPR, but if it's a directive (which I think it is?), then each member state must implement a law that satisfies the GDPR requirements. Member states may chose to pass stricter laws than the GDPR technically requires, which could make something illegal in one EU country but not all the others.

Also, enforcement may be very inconsistent, since it is mostly left to each member state to handle.

EDIT: NVM, GDPR is a Regulation, not a Directive, so it's automatically law everywhere in Europe.

freshpots• 5 years ago

Your connection is not private Attackers might be trying to steal your information from isgoogleanalyticsillegal.com (for example, passwords, messages or credit cards). Learn more NET::ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID

No thanks.

RedShift1• 5 years ago

It's a Let's Encrypt certificate issued by R3, perhaps your root certs are not up to date?

wila• 5 years ago

In particular because of this issue:

https://letsencrypt.org/docs/dst-root-ca-x3-expiration-septe...

melissalobos4• 5 years ago

Huh, it is working for me. It looks like a valid cert from Let's Encrypt to me. Do you have any more details? So maybe the author can fix it.

justsomehnguy• 5 years ago

And this is why all that scary pages without explanation sucks. There is needed too many clicks to actually see the chain and certs.

alpaca1284• 5 years ago

Especially because you can get errors like that just from having an incorrect date/time set on the device. Confused me a few times.

bastardoperator• 5 years ago

LGTM, sure you're not having an issue on your side? I even see http redirect to https. Cert was also issued yesterday.

falcolas2• 5 years ago

In my case, this was caused by a corporate "keep our internet clean" (lol) install of Cisco. Check what the cert actually is.

Volker_W6• 5 years ago

For me, the cert has a fingerprint of 8C:5A:9F:E3:03:A2:C5:31:0D:42:C0:AF:41:E6:61:48:8A:C4:EF:91:CD:41:83:90:D1:86:AF:DA:47:47:00:16 signed by 67:AD:D1:16:6B:02:0A:E6:1B:8F:5F:C9:68:13:C0:4C:2A:A5:89:96:07:96:86:55:72:A3:C7:E7:37:61:3D:FD signed by 96:BC:EC:06:26:49:76:F3:74:60:77:9A:CF:28:C5:A7:CF:E8:A3:C0:AA:E1:1A:8F:FC:EE:05:C0:BD:DF:08:C6 and gets accepted.

GranPC• 5 years ago

Meta: this website consistently crashes my browser (Firefox on Linux) if I move the mouse in and out of the map a couple of times. Does this happen to anyone else?

(edit: demo video url: https://dabbleam.com/jesus/Screen%20record%20from%202022-01-...)

Edit 2: doesn't crash on a fresh Firefox profile. Crashes upon enabling gfx.webrender.all, gfx.webrender.compositor and gfx.webrender.compositor.force-enabled. Very intriguing stuff, I'll file a bug.

jacquesm2• 5 years ago

Checked, also FF on Linux, works here, no crash.

melissalobos4• 5 years ago

Latest stable Firefox on Arch, it doesn't crash but the person stops moving after a few times.

smoyer• 5 years ago

FF 97.0b4 on Xubuntu 20.04 (up-to-date) - no crash mousing over the map (whether it's a highlighted country or now).

alpaca1284• 5 years ago

Nope, FF 95.0.1 on Linux doesn't crash for me.

spicybright• 5 years ago

FF under macos. The entire page lags like crazy when hovering in or out of the map. What are they even doing to make that happen lol

rickstanley• 5 years ago

Doesn't crash on Windows, but boy it uses CPU to the last register; it goes up to 95% usage.

hrdwdmrbl• 5 years ago

GDPR has gone too far. Privacy yes. Encryption yes. Data portability yes. Permissionless selling of personal data no. But the rules are nonsensical at this point.

pgalvin• 5 years ago

Could you elaborate? Which parts of the GDPR do you disagree with?

schleck82• 5 years ago

PostHog is the only open source product analytics platform where customer data never leaves your infrastructure

That's wrong. I can give you 3 other open source selfhosted options off the top of my head: Offen, Counter, Matomo.

Edit: I just saw that their "alternatives to google analytics" page shows posthog's competitors as well and you can submit prs to add further options, fair play!

https://isgoogleanalyticsillegal.com/alternatives

kingcharles2• 5 years ago

"Plausible" is another, even if I don't like their support.

Volker_W6• 5 years ago

Why don't you like plausible?

sccxy• 5 years ago

Just replaced my Google Analytics with Plausible.

Self hosted docker and it is not blocked by adblocker (nginx custom js filename).

Only thing I miss at the moment is extensive GA history which is gone now, but Plausible is so much faster and simpler and maybe they implement history import someday.

deepstack3• 5 years ago

Got a 404 when going to the link.

schleck82• 5 years ago

They might have changed it just now, or I copied the wrong one.

Either way I replaced it with the correct url

timgl2• 5 years ago

Sorry! Had to rename it because of issues with uBlock ironically [0]. New URL is https://isgoogleanalyticsillegal.com/alternatives/

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29994768

ritmatter• 5 years ago

This site seems like a great example of how the EU forces productive folks to jump through all kinds of regulatory hoops. Hopefully it’ll help them navigate the complex legislation.

Rilfeu• 5 years ago

The automotive industry has safety regulations. Why shouldn't IT have some regulation as well?

marginalia_nu• 5 years ago

This has been inevitable for years.

The fact that 'productive folks' have been engaged in a chicken race with the regulators since GDPR came along in 2016 is entirely on them.

The second shoe dropped with Schrems II in 2020, and the race to find plausible technicalities to keep doing the same thing continued. Still no real attempt at fixing the problems.

If they had followed the spirit of the law rather than trying to get away with dubious technicalities, there would be no mad scramble to fix things now when it turned out those technicalities were in fact hopeful thinking at best.

amelius7• 5 years ago

You're only on the watchdog's radars when you are a large company, in which case you should have an entire department devoted to complying to legislation anyway.

foxfluff2• 5 years ago

Even private individuals have been smacked with GDPR fines.

tobyhinloopen2• 5 years ago

At least we’re attempting to improve the privacy of people. If companies keep abusing their power, stupid laws will continue to be added.

iso1210• 5 years ago

I'm sure in your country you can catch rats and serve them in "special stew", not bother about basic hygine, have under-counter cameras taking pictures up skirts, have no requirement to ensure that customers don't get electrocuted, etc, and you love it.

Most countries in the world though has governments which ensure basic rights, and if you want to do business in those countries you follow those laws, no matter how it may reduce your profitability

wobblybubble• 5 years ago

Productive is a meaningless word in this context. You can productively work for or against the best interests of society at large.

Volker_W6• 5 years ago

Google analytics is one of the worst privacy offenders.

paulgb• 5 years ago

Funny enough, ublock (stock install) completely breaks the “alternatives” page. It must do some pattern matching on "component---src-pages-google-analytics-alternatives-js-8d1eb2b4c6482dba3dfd.js" and decide it's suspicious enough to deny it, even though it's a first-party request.

melissalobos4• 5 years ago

It is because it has google-analytics in the title of the resource:

Rule: `-google-analytics-$script,domain=~wordpress.org`

URL: https://isgoogleanalyticsillegal.com/component---src-pages-g...

Edit: Couldn't get this formatted well, but it has google-analytics highlighted in the URL

toqy3• 5 years ago

It will block anything with google analytics string in it I think. We had a small google analytics image/link on an internal website that linked to some relevant GA dashboard and the image was blocked / hidden by ublock and possibly others. Changing the name fixed it.

timgl2• 5 years ago

Ha! I've renamed that page so this should work now!

yessirwhatever4• 5 years ago

I dislike Google and their products pretty much universally, but having this sort of thing done by a competitor is not just distasteful, I see it as verging on corporatism.

Make a better product and beat them, don't use the fact that a government is banning them to upsell your own tracking software.

All tracking is bad, from Google or not. I understand the "companies need to make informed decisions" argument but I disagree with it, mainly because tracking software is involuntary and it's in the interest of the tracking software maker and the company using it to make it as stealthy as possible.

PS: What adds salt to injury is that you're using Google Fonts on this website. If you were privacy-conscious, you'd self-host at least. Read here: https://developers.google.com/fonts/faq?hl=en#what_does_usin...

nyellin• 5 years ago

Agreed. We've thought of trying out PostHog in our open source platform for Kubernetes and this is a bit of a turn off.

We'll probably try it anyway, to be honest, but I'm not crazy about this type of advertising.

There is so much room to beat Google Analytics on UX alone. Is this really necessary?

tokai• 5 years ago

That your competitors product is illegal is an excellent point to showcase for potential users. We're not even talking real mudslinging, just pointing out reality. Being offended over this is baffling to me.

jsiepkes• 5 years ago

Make a better product and beat them,

It's going to be hard when your own hands are tied by legislation but your competitor just does as they see fit.

Also them having the resources to drag out any court ruling for years and years ensures there is no level playing field whatsoever.

So yeah, maybe companies should be called out for thinking they are above the law just because they can afford endless legal battles.

usbqk• 5 years ago

Google analytics is against the law because they are American which means that they have to give up any data the us government asks of them. That’s the only illegal thing they do, and they are not better just for being American. They are better because they are better.

deepstack3• 5 years ago

PS: What adds salt to injury is that you're using Google Fonts on this website. If you were privacy-conscious, you'd self-host at least. Read here: https://developers.google.com/fonts/faq?hl=en#what_does_usin...

Thanks for pointing that. Don't know how many time have met privacy advocates, etc has made a such a strong point against google, and still embedded youtube video or google font on their site. Is there are github page where one can block all google or fb used domains or ips? Would be very useful!

samhw2• 5 years ago

Is there are github page where one can block all google or fb used domains or ips?

Are you asking for a repo - for software? Or instructions? Or something to do with GitHub Pages? I may be able to help, but I don't quite follow.

dylan6045• 5 years ago

Seems like you're looking for a browser extension. Something like uBlock, NoScript, etc will all do the blocking of the evils

yessirwhatever4• 5 years ago

You can use Privacy Badger by EFF https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/privacy-badge...

Edit: Please note that they seem to have removed the link to Google fonts from the website now.

Melatonic• 5 years ago

Lots of different methods but for most the easiest is to just use something like NextDNS or a pihole. Pihole being potentially cheaper long term and NextDNS having the advantage that you can use it when off your home network.

If you want to get extra fancy you need to also worry about Doh and Dot (encrypted DNS) and hardcoded IP's (mainly for actual applications like mobile apps or smart devices). Encrypted DNS is a great thing but companies also use it to bypass things like pihole or NextDNS by hardcoding their DNS IP into an application and then sending all requests to that IP using Doh and Dot so that the end user has no control.

What you can then do is use any kind of edge router / firewall / networking equipment (virtual or physical) to block all the common DNS IP addresses directly and only allow addresses of your choice (such as NextDNS or other). This way when the application tries to make a connection using Doh or Dot to that specific IP address it ensures that it is blocked and everything must fall back to whatever DNS you have setup (which can also be running Doh or Dot for privacy / security). Some home routers have this functionality or you can setup a pfsense box relatively cheaply to achieve this. Unfortunately I have not yet found an easy / cheap solution for mobile devices if anyone has any suggestions.

sensanaty• 5 years ago

LocalCDN blocks all Google Fonts by default, causes lots of sites to display default sans-serif system fonts instead though

BlueTemplar4• 5 years ago

It's even more ironic that you (and the owners of that website, and PiHole) would then rely on Microsoft's servers (GitHub) to store and work on that code and data !

5evOX5hTZ9mYa9E• 5 years ago

How do you compete fairly with somebody that engages in monopoly abuse and anti-competitive behaviour?

It has been more than 3 and a half years since GDPR was implemented, yet it took concentrated efforts of non-profits and individuals to come to this extremely obvious interpretation that EU–US Privacy Shield is nonsense.

Maybe if EU and member countries actually made any enforcement efforts, a viable competitive space would emerge.

franklampard• 5 years ago

Isn’t a legal product a better one than an illegal counterpart?

amelius7• 5 years ago

Nope. It's because the illegal product has lower cost (because complying to regulations costs money one way or the other).

kerng2• 5 years ago

Only if the user (in Google's case the product) would be the one liable.

hotgeart• 5 years ago

This will help you: https://google-webfonts-helper.herokuapp.com/fonts

dmix• 5 years ago

Even the quote on their homepage is made me roll my eyes

PostHog is what I always wanted a Product Analytics SaaS to be. Private cloud option so GDPR becomes way more manageable, features built based on direct community feedback, focus on simplicity and usefulness over vanity features...Great job people!

Mmm I dream of [Private cloud options] to make [needlessly complicated government legislation] easy!

Yay privacy, I guess? Just add 3 more needlessly complicated middlemen.

judge20202• 5 years ago

If you were privacy-conscious, you'd self-host at least. Read here:

That page explicitly notes that cookies aren't sent and these requests aren't used for the ad machine. Is using Google Fonts at all the issue just on the chance they're using IP address matching for ads/is them having your IP too much of a risk?

kerng2• 5 years ago

Interesting, I have always assumed that Google and FB would use any request sent to them for tracking and profile building. Probably a safe assumption to be honest.

Just dump all request logs in a giant Data Lake - seems like promotion material idea. (sarcasm).

morelisp6• 5 years ago

cookies aren't sent

Yes, it says this.

aren't used for the ad machine

No, it doesn't say this.

geysersam4• 5 years ago

Unless the message is misleading I don't understand why you would find it distasteful. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, a competing product being illegal is an excellent selling point. Why would you withold that important information from your customers?

Meph5042• 5 years ago

The thing is, that site is misleading, a product that is legal in pretty much the whole world (currently) but against the law in two countries, does not make the product illegal anywhere else, and it seems more likely that the fault would be on the companies implementing it in those countries, not in the global service that is being provided.

Then again, even though this is google, I'm not big on localized countries attempt to create laws that dictate the behavior of the internet as a whole, admittedly this is a different issue.

mitchdoogle5• 5 years ago

This whole post and the website is totally misleading. It's marketing disguised as a helpful tool.

judge20202• 5 years ago

To add, it might not even be illegal; the Netherlands quote is:

The Dutch Data Protection Authority warns that the use of Google Analytics 'may soon no longer be allowed', after a ruling by the Austrian privacy regulator. A definitive conclusion is said to come at the beginning of 2022.

As for the Astria ruling, this is part of it:

The fact that Google LLC argued that Google Analytics was allegedly provided by Google Ireland Ltd since April 2021 was not considered relevant, as the violation occurred in August 2020.

So it might be illegal to have used GA before April 2021, but it very well might now be legal given that GA is now provided by 'Google Ireland Ltd', which was a move explicitly done by Google to comply with GDPR.

slothtrop• 5 years ago

don't use the fact that a government is banning them to upsell your own tracking software.

This isn't very convincing.

mcdonje2• 5 years ago

Matomo makes the same case, but in a much more tasteful way: https://matomo.org/google-analytics-alternative/

rapnie• 5 years ago

Here's the comparison of Plausible Analytics: https://plausible.io/vs-google-analytics

mitchdoogle5• 5 years ago

This kind of marketing is pretty common on HN. Provocative title and a blog post (written as if they're an independent observer) that presents a 'problem' and conveniently their product is perfect for solving it. The worst is these things get tons of upvotes.

dylan6045• 5 years ago

The readers of HN are human after all, unless you're all bots and I'm the last human. Oh gawd, what if I'm not human either. Oh crap, now I'm going to be fretting over that all day.

If you see a title, you have no idea it is from a 1st party or 3rd party until you read the article. Or, you could just come to the comments an diatribe away. That's the internet way, and claiming to be morally better than the internet is the HN way.

BlueTemplar4• 5 years ago

At least, unlike for the overwhelming majority of articles, the title is by the author himself.

foxfluff2• 5 years ago

I dislike Google and their products pretty much universally, but having this sort of thing done by a competitor is not just distasteful, I see it as verging on corporatism.

Don't shoot the messenger? I think everyone should have the right to voice opinions and point out problems with products, competitors or not. As long as the claims are factual and not FUD and bullshit. (I'm reminded of fud campaigns made e.g. by big corporations against open source, backed by their own shady fudfactory studies)

If a company can -- without lying or twisting facts -- point out that their competitor's product is dangerous/illegal/unsuitable/{whatever is relevant to me}, I'm all open.

Of course, the line between a fud campaign and plain good old information is sometimes very thin.

throwhauser• 5 years ago

If it pushes all companies to be clear about their potential GDPR issues, I'm all for it. Let them compete on ease of compliance.

As it is, it's very difficult to tell if something you're using is gathering data that you don't intend to gather (e.g. your hosting provider logging IP addresses for your hand-coded blogging software). I don't want to have even the tiniest possibility of being on the receiving end of one of those theoretically huge GDPR fines just by self-publishing some code and putting it on the internet.

Sebb767• 5 years ago

Make a better product and beat them, don't use the fact that a government is banning them to upsell your own tracking software.

I love that you casually put not being illegal on the same level as a dashboard or a convenience feature.

Volker_W6• 5 years ago

Make a better product

Their product is open source and (assuming the say the truth) keeps the data on the server of the website owner. I would say this is better.

tehwebguy• 5 years ago

Using Google Fonts on this is hilarious and bad, otherwise though this post makes no sense. Pointing out your competitors flaws is part of competition and, I’d guess, an important driver for fixing or eliminating those flaws market wide.

KronisLV• 5 years ago

PS: What adds salt to injury is that you're using Google Fonts on this website. If you were privacy-conscious, you'd self-host at least.

I get what you're saying, but i feel like that's probably a sliding scale of how much people actually care about these things vs how much they want to just easily get things done.

For example, right now my personal website serves the following files, just to get Open Sans working:

  /fonts/open-sans-latin.woff2
  /fonts/open-sans-latin-ext.woff2
  /fonts/open-sans-latin-bold.woff2
  /fonts/open-sans-latin-ext-bold.woff2

What's the CSS for displaying just one of those fonts? It's the following:

    /* latin */
  @font-face {
    font-family: 'Open Sans';
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    font-display: swap;
    src: local('Open Sans'), url(/fonts/open-sans-latin.woff2) format('woff2');
    unicode-range: U+0000-00FF, U+0131, U+0152-0153, U+02BB-02BC, U+02C6, U+02DA, U+02DC, U+2000-206F, U+2074, U+20AC, U+2122, U+2191, U+2193, U+2212, U+2215, U+FEFF, U+FFFD;
  }

Of course, depending on the browsers that you want to support and how efficient you want things to be, you might end up using more than just the WOFF2 format or just adding a TTF font and calling it a day, which will further inflate the amount of configuration that you need.

Furthermore, the characters that you'll want to show on your site will also make you write more code, just look at what Google does for Open Sans: https://fonts.googleapis.com/css2?family=Open+Sans&display=s...

Oh, and more styles? Well, be ready to add all of those as well, since most of the fonts out there won't necessarily be variable: https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans#standard-styles

In comparison, Google Fonts just lets you choose what you want and copy something like the following:

  HTML:
  <link rel="preconnect" href="https://fonts.googleapis.com">
  <link rel="preconnect" href="https://fonts.gstatic.com" crossorigin>
  <link href="https://fonts.googleapis.com/css2?family=Open+Sans:wght@400;700&display=swap" rel="stylesheet"> 
  
  CSS:
  font-family: 'Open Sans', sans-serif;

While we're on the topic of fonts, it's a shame that we don't think more about how heavy the fonts we choose to use are, since right now serving my own fonts eats up around half of the bandwidth on my non-image-heavy site. The single article that i've found on the topic so far as been this, "Smallest (file size) Google Web Fonts": http://www.oxfordshireweb.com/smallest-file-size-google-web-...

In my opinion, those sizes should also be readily available in the web UI of Google Fonts, or most other sites that recommend fonts out there!

woah• 5 years ago

This is a bad take. The problem with Google analytics is that it allows Google to surveil everyone's movements around the entire internet. This is enabled by the fact that for a long time, Google analytics was the best analytics product and it is free. I've been in the position myself with personal project websites of trying to decide whether I'm just not going to know anything about what my users are doing, whether I'm going to try to hook up some janky open source alternative, or whether I'm going to give in to the surveillance machine.

The competitor that put up this site appears to be a company that provides analytics that are not centrally collected and analyzed to serve ads across the internet. Their entire selling point seems to be that they do not engage in mass surveillance. Equating this to what Google analytics does (if this competitor's claims are accurate) is a false equivalency.

To me, this is no more objectionable than a foam insulation manufacturer capitalizing on asbestos bans.

hn_throwaway_992• 5 years ago

Totally agree. I really don't have any objections to analytics that are run solely by the website provider, as long as those analytics are only used to investigate usage and issues on that website. I don't have any problem with coffeegrinders.com knowing all about how I use their site to find good coffee grinders, but I DON'T want that correlated with my choice of mildly NSFW Tumbler videos. It's pretty inherent to the way the web works in any case, where you're not just being broadcasted to but are having a back-and-forth conversation with the website.

The primary problem with surveillance capitalism is when your movement across the entire Internet is gobbled up, sliced, and aggregated for the largest bidder.

pyrale3• 5 years ago

Make a better product and beat them

It's really hard to make that claim when Google is known for anticompetitive behaviour, including crippling GA competitors [1].

We should probably acknowledge that Google is in the terminal phase where only forced split and divesture will help, and in the meantime, every action from competitors is fair game.

[1] https://forum.matomo.org/t/adwords-campaign-rejected-for-goo... https://matomo.org/faq/troubleshooting/antivirus-program-or-...

axiosgunnar• 5 years ago

If their product does not violate the GDPR, their product is a better product.

It's just that website creators were defaulting to "just use Google Analytics" because it's convenient and they didn't care about their user's human right to privacy, and were thus externalizing human rights violations onto them.

The government is simply preventing externalization of harm, which even libertarians will agree if the governments job (of course agreeing on what level of spying is harmful is where the debate will be).

StreamBright2• 5 years ago

How exactly you propose of doing that? I cannot convince frontend devs to not use Google fonts directly and upload it to their own CDN.

belorn2• 5 years ago

In industries that successfully self-regulate we find that good products that follow regulations out compete those that don't. In those cases politicians also tend to avoid adding regulations in order to not disrupt a working system.

In industries that don't successfully self-regulate we get politicians that force a regulation in order to have good product out compete bad ones. It is especially common with lemon markets where information asymmetry between buyers and sellers is a significant reason of good products being unable to fairly compete with bad ones.

The value of personal information is a notoriously lemon market where the buyer, ie users, are not aware of the actually cost to themselves or to whom they are selling their information. One of the first requirements in GDPR is fixing part of this by forcing companies to disclose to whom the information is sent to. Secondly it partially address the cost aspect by forcing companies to disclose how the information get used and thus what the real cost to the user is. A bit like how banks need to disclose what the interest of a loan actually will be before the consumer signs the contract.

What makes privacy issues an even bigger issue is that the cost is not carried by the party who decide and benefits from the choice of analytic software. This is similar to environmental issues where the cost of a decision is not carried by the company that made it, but rather by those around them. Environmental issues is a typical example where self-regulations do not seem to work, as the end consumer has no information if a certain clothing item is made from child labor or by a eco friendly operation. A regulations job there is to put down some minimum standards that everyone need to follow, including information disclosure so that end users can actually know what they are paying for and how much.

boomlinde• 5 years ago

What is corporatism in the sense that this is verging on it?

Make a better product and beat them, don't use the fact that a government is banning them to upsell your own tracking software.

Google Analytics is not a good product if it can't legally be used. The competitor in this case is offering a better product because it can legally be used.

hericium• 5 years ago

Very specific domain name. Is Tag Manager different from Analytics? Have you seen Fonts' TOS?

Cenk• 5 years ago

Brought to you by PostHog. See also this tool by Fathom: https://illegal.analyticsscanner.com

jhoelzel• 5 years ago

Welp Technically yes everywhere and it has been that way since the gdpr

Practically this is the number one reason for our nice "attention, do not resits, we are using cookies on your electronic machinery" popups.

For quite a few sites its the only cookie you actually accept.

Its a s**t show really. Every single client ever now needs to have a cookie popup because google is going to punish you in your rankings if you do not use their integrations too.

And if you do use their integrations... you need a popup.... and dont even get me started about "legitimate interest".

But this is the way... I opt out as much as I can and block through the router as well as ublock.

The most interesting thing that i noticed is that if you block third party cookies in safari on your phone, some sites will show you a blank screen. Timescale does this (I have reported this as a bug month ago but never received feedback).

Its an amazing feature by now:

- the page loads and you can see the content

- the page trys to show you the cookie popup

- since i dont have any cookies allowed, the script will just completly blank out my page

welp. welcome to the future. Its not neccesarily better, but I can see them all now, which i guess is at least a step in the right direction.

Volker_W6• 5 years ago

Every single client ever now needs to have a cookie popup because google is going to punish you in your rankings if you do not use their integrations too.

Source/proof?

morelisp6• 5 years ago

For quite a few sites its the only cookie you actually accept.

If true, they don't need to show the popup.

google is going to punish you in your rankings if you do not use their integrations too.

If you have evidence of this it would be the basis of a massive antitrust case. (I'm not disagreeing and would not be too surprised, but - real evidence is thin unless you include the AMP carousel which is not technically part of "rankings".)

kmeisthax3• 5 years ago

Note that this isn't purely "do not use Google Analytics"; it's "do not export EU data". For context, there used to be a trade agreement to ensure EU companies were still allowed to use US server hosts, called US Privacy Shield; but that was torpedoed by other legal rulings.

TBH, I personally do not understand how it is legal to provide a single shared service in the face of data localization requirements, especially if other countries were to adopt similar rules. Is it just a matter of having separate shards for each jurisdiction? Or do we need to instance the entire application so that US users don't even see EU users and vice-versa? Most off-the-shelf/FOSS webapps aren't built to be sharded this way, they assume One Big Database that has everything. That would include some of the GA alternatives they list; which, again, is a problem if those apps don't shard users by jurisdiction.

I suppose for now, just hosting everything in the EU is fine, if only because the other jurisdictions with data localization requirements[0] pretty much can't be served with a shared application anyway. I'm imagining that's what the person who built this was figuring it would be used for. But if the US starts demanding data localization, the Internet is fucked.

[0] China, AFAIK

rileymat2• 5 years ago

“ But if the US starts demanding data localization, the Internet is fucked.”

The the demands that tiktok be sold?

kmeisthax3• 5 years ago

TikTok is an unusual case, because the US was determined to ratfuck Chinese social media apps a few years back. The executive orders in question only applied to a handful of companies in one country. There was no concomitant demand for, say, EU companies or anyone else to shard off US users on domestically-hosted infrastructure.

A general data localization requirement in US law would mean an end to self-hosting one website and serving two jurisdictions for the majority of web users.

ximm• 5 years ago

GDPR doesn't rule out using servers in other jurisdictions. It just rules out using servers in jurisdictions with shitty privacy laws, e.g. the US. If all countries were to adapt similar laws there wouldn't be a problem.

lmkg6• 5 years ago

Exactly. As far as I can tell, the only problem that most European courts cite is the CLOUD Act. If that law were updated, I suspect many of these rulings would get reversed.

kmeisthax3• 5 years ago

You are correct that the US copypasting GDPR into it's own law would be an absolute triumph. But that's not what I'm worried about. The problem I'm worried about is multiple countries having conflicting data localization requirements.

One of the specific cited concerns with off-site hosting is that it exposes user data to foreign intelligence agencies. This is a valid concern, but it's not unique to the US. It's not like EU member states don't have their own spymasters: they absolutely do, and they are just as atrocious to democratic norms as American ones are. In fact, most EU member states would rather trust the US than each other, that's why their politicians negotiated the Privacy Shield agreement that ultimately got shot down.

If the US were to have a data localization requirement, it would almost certainly be incompatible with the EU's data localization requirement. Then everything I mentioned in my prior comment would apply: the need to shard users at best, and a need to firewall users off from one another at worst.

falcolas2• 5 years ago

But if the US starts demanding data localization, the Internet is fucked.

Not... really? The internet (defined as the infrastructure and non-commercial websites) will be fine.

Corporations that collect and monetize data will just have to jump through more hoops (and many already do this because of the GDPR and Europe's general feelings about personal data). So they'll be fine too, even if they gripe a bit about it.

The only folks who would really be hurt would be small developers, because their potential audience will be limited until they take advantage of foreign hosting and segmenting their user's data. In the end, they'll probably be fine to, even if their growth is stunted while they comply with laws (and ultimately, the wishes of their customers).

sdoering2• 5 years ago

This message is brought to you by
PostHog is the only open source product analytics platform where customer data never leaves your infrastructure.

Hosting my own Matomo installation I beg to differ. Matomo is open source and my visitors data never leaves my own server.

Except they only do backend tracking and see https traffic from website frontend tracking reaching my analytics server as it "leaves your infrastructure".

But they at least made one thing obviously clear to me. I would never consider using them in the future.

Also they are wrong factually. Google Analytics is not illegal in Austria. The court made this clear. Transmitting the IP without anonymizeIp is. Also transmitting PII data unencrypted to GA us (but GA does forbid that in their TOS as well).

So not caring about the law when implementing GA and doing it just wrong is forbidden in Austria. Who would have thought. Using it correctly and adhering to data privacy best practices is just fine with GA.

ratww• 5 years ago

Also they are wrong factually. Google Analytics is not illegal in Austria. The court made this clear. Transmitting the IP without anonymizeIp is. Also transmitting PII data unencrypted to GA us (but GA does forbid that in their TOS as well).

That's some very interesting information. So, the real answer to the question of whether it's illegal in Austria or not is a "MAYBE", and it is quite easy to make it legal? If so, that should be on this site.

ceejayoz2• 5 years ago

Also they are wrong factually. Google Analytics is not illegal in Austria. The court made this clear. Transmitting the IP without anonymizeIp is. Also transmitting PII data unencrypted to GA us (but GA does forbid that in their TOS as well).

I've only got a machine translation of the ruling (https://noyb.eu/sites/default/files/2022-01/E-DSB%20-%20Goog...), but it includes:

"The specific IP address used can no longer be determined by the complainant either. However, this is irrelevant, since the UUID in the cookies is already clearly linked to a person."

I've been skeptical of the "just turn on anonymizeIp" approach for this reason; xxx.xxx.xxx.0 plus, say, the user agent, is likely plenty to identify me.

sdoering2• 5 years ago

Probably. I tried to read the translated ruling but I have to admit that I find it difficult. Need to search the German version to better understand the fine details.

And yes the User ID/cookie ID is PD and one needs consent to transmit that. As one needs consent to store a non essential, non functional cookie.

If I read the ruling correctly (and I might be wrong here) the defendant didn't ask for consent.

zelphirkalt• 5 years ago

Hopefully though, this will make the otherwise so risk aware management layers think again, before they demand adding GA to websites from their developers. Hopefully will even make them avoid it, as an unnecessary risk.

lmkg6• 5 years ago

Also transmitting PII data unencrypted to GA us (but GA does forbid that in their TOS as well).

There is a BIG issue here which is usually splitting hairs, but in this case is super-relevant.

Google's TOS forbids storing PII. GDPR forbids transferring Personal Data (PD). These are nowhere near the same thing. Pseudonymous identifiers are not PII, but are often PD.

Google Analytics requires a pseudonymous identifier to work (the "client ID," by default randomly generated value stored in a cookie). This may on its own constitute a GDPR violation, despite not counting as PII for Google's ToS or any other American law.

sanitycheck• 5 years ago

It's possible for a developer to disable GA cookies and/or provide a different client ID to GA, which would make cross-site user tracking and identification of individuals more difficult.

Google would still always get the IP and user-agent though, so maybe that's not enough. Proxying calls to GA and stripping anything which could contribute to a fingerprint should logically make it "legal" everywhere, I would have thought?

fleddr• 5 years ago

That's not my understanding of the ruling. My interpretation is that even with those GA settings in place (anonymize IP), GA still does not comply with GDPR.

To back that up:

https://autoriteitpersoonsgegevens.nl/sites/default/files/at...

Above is the official guidance from the dutch privacy authority. It basically documents the best practice since 2018: anonymize IP and how to configure several other privacy-friendly settings in GA.

Exactly one week ago they added an explicit note to the very top of the document. It says that soon GA (as a whole) may no longer be allowed. No matter how you configure it. They go on to explain that they're in the process of investigating two other complaints and will come to a final conclusion early this year.

vorticalbox• 5 years ago

that side bar gives me <marquee> nostalgia.

blibble• 5 years ago

I for one am overjoyed that the <marquee> tag seems to be coming back

calpaterson• 5 years ago

How do they decide to pick what towns to show in maps like this? Aberdeen is neither the capital not the largest town in Scotland and anyway is smaller than Cardiff which is the capital and largest town in Wales. Republic of Ireland doesn't get a single town but NI gets Belfast? There has to be a reasonable explanation, surely?

l30n4da5• 5 years ago

Years ago, I remember using GA on a project. Was unhappy with GA's realtime availability, so we wrote our own backend for it and stored all the analytics on our own infrastructure.

Worked without any real issues. Didn't have to stop using GA on the frontend, either. Just had to point the frontend GA at our own endpoint.

Theoretically, this would make usage of GA compliant with GDPR, too, I beleive.

tupac_speedrap• 5 years ago

The detail is quite interesting. The Austrian interpretation seems to hinge on the US intelligence agencies having access to data as a third-party at any time because their surveillance laws are so broad and the fact that UUIDs are being used between cookies and therefore the anonymised data is actually not very anonymous if you slurp data like the NSA and can combine that with IPs addresses.

amelius7• 5 years ago

Why isn't France in red? IIRC, the French started the whole EU anti-Google campaign since they have the presidency of the EU. Also, Germany used to be far ahead almost anyone else when it comes to privacy, so why aren't they in red? This map seems wrong.

skilled• 5 years ago

This article[0] also has a solid list of open-source alternatives.

[0] https://stackdiary.com/open-source-analytics/

tobyhinloopen2• 5 years ago

Nice clickbait url with misleading information on the website.

TekMol3• 5 years ago

The EU and especially Germany make it harder and harder for startups and indie makers to survive.

Now when you start a project in Germany, not only do you have to have an "Imprint" on your site which shows your private address (if you work from home or are a digital nomad) but you also are at a disadvantage because you cannot use all the free tools that startup founders outside of the EU can use.

Has anybody here in Europe considered moving to another country or setting up a company in another country because of this?

How do all the famous indie makers from Europe handle this? I never find any information on their sites with an address and they all use Google Analytics.

lawtalkinghuman• 5 years ago

you cannot use all the free tools that startup founders outside of the EU can use.

You can use the ones that don't infringe on user privacy.

7steps2much• 5 years ago

The "imprint" doesn't necessarily need to show your private address though, only an address of "someone responsible for the contents of these website."

Do note that "someone responsible" can be a legal entity! Not only cooperations but also a "Verein" or a similar legal construct.

Also, note that you do not need to list your address, only a "Anschrift", which often times is the same thing as an address, but really just means "If I write this on a letter it has to be delivered to you." So a postal box for example works just fine.

If you are a startup you will have all of these things anyways, I don't know a single startup that isn't also a legal entity. Indie makers is a bit more tricky, but as mentioned before it is pretty easy to get around this requirement via a "Verein" or something similar.

As for free tools not being usable, I honestly don't think it is that big a problem. Google Analytics doesn't work for you? There are other offers out there. Or you could selfhost matomo. Or if you want then you can just go ahead and run an awk script on your Webserver log.

As for not finding information and on the sites of famous European indie makers, I am going to let you on on a secret. The "Impressum" was always intended so that consumers could have a look at who they are dealing with over the internet.

To this day it is still handled like that. If you aren't selling anything or doing anything else that "a classic" company would do it is highly unlikely anyone is going to care whether or not you have an Impressum.

TekMol3• 5 years ago

Sure. You can set up an address somewhere. Rent it. Set up some kind of mail forwarding or go there regularely to get it.

Sure. You can put in a day of work to self host or write your own analytics solution.

But this already puts you at a disadvantage. Because of the time you have to invest and the sub par solutions. Google Analytics is simply better than the alternatives.

And it does not end here. Every website I know uses a multitude of international tools. All of them connecting the visitor to some international servers which provide the service. Cutting European indie makers off from all these tools will put them at a huge disadvantage.

vladharbuz• 5 years ago

I've started three businesses in the EU and I can't say I share your feelings.

Regarding the Impressum ("imprint"), the information you need to put on your website is already public, since the address of your company is recorded in the commercial register when you incorporate it. It can be annoying to have to use your home address, I agree, but there are plenty of coworking spaces or even just mailbox services that can solve this problem.

Regarding Google Analytics, I don't find it a competitive disadvantage to have to host analytics software that is less detrimental to user privacy.

Are there any other issues or annoyances you ran into that contribute to the impression you stated?

TekMol3• 5 years ago

Most indie makers build their product first and only incorporate if it becomes big. If ever.

nerdawson2• 5 years ago

I'm generally in support of website owners having to publish a certain amount of information about who operates the site. Especially when the site is commercial in nature or collects visitor data.

If you're publishing ads, sending people to affiliate links, selling products, whatever, you're operating a business. All businesses should be held to a minimum standard of accountability.

j_san• 5 years ago

I don't think the imprint is really hindering.

Not using SASS services (e.g. Firebase) just really sucks though.

We still use it (started with it before privacy shield was demolished) but we will have to migrate eventually. Don't know what we'll use exactly, maybe managed kubernetes with some platform for an easier workflow running on it? Idk yet.

openplatypus3• 5 years ago

Hi there, not sure how relevant this is, but there appear to be few “alternatives” to the firebase. Some open-source [1].

And if you already consider Kubernetes, even better. It removes a lot (but not all) of headaches for managing infrastructure. I wish there was better market for quality k8s operators to automate the management tasks for some specialized deployments.

It is open source, the hosted vendors will emerge, so you will be able to buy it, if not yet.

That said, I sympathize. Re-doing already done feature rather than focusing on new things can feel discouraging.

[1] https://supabase.com/docs/oss - no affiliation

juanse• 5 years ago

In Spain is kind of the same. Indeed entrepreneurs often hear how countries like Germany make everything cheaper and easier to do.

Personally I use the self-host version of plausible, and I remove this cookie banner that is sooo invasive and by the way improve page-size and UX.

I use a virtual server precisely in Germany for less than 3€ a month and had it by my own subdomain like analytics.mydomain.eu

mrweasel2• 5 years ago

So because you want it to be easier to start a business, you want users to have less privacy and less legal protection?

Google Analytics is free for businesses, but not because Google feel line they need to help small business get started.

Also consider that starting a business in countries like Denmark is easier that starting one in the US. Ease of doing business isn’t the only thing holding back EU startups.

openplatypus3• 5 years ago

Germany is making it hard, but on tax level. Not even talking about the amount you pay, but the complexity of the system. But that's it.

EU/Germany might not encourage a haphazard hodgepodge of poorly vetted services as squashed into a start-up. And it is a good thing.

Some regulation might have got a bit extreme. Granted. I think they will be revisited as the time goes by. But really, this feels like a reaction to contempt that many businesses have towards protecting their users.

timeon• 5 years ago

you cannot use all the free tools

Aka spyware.

heartbeats3• 5 years ago

You're considering moving because you'd have to spend a day setting up a post box and new analytics?

You don't think you're being a wee bit dramatic here, homie?

MinorTom4• 5 years ago

a post box

It needs to be a specific kind of legal service address. Using a post box is illegal and can cost you a lot of money if a competitor finds out.

new analytics

It's a lot more than that, under Schrems II you can't use any good cloud provider, nor most SaaS.

Animats• 5 years ago

you have to have an "Imprint" on your site which shows your private address

That's been the law in the EU since 2001.[1]

1. In addition to other information requirements established by Community law, Member States shall ensure that the service provider shall render easily, directly and permanently accessible to the recipients of the service and competent authorities, at least the following information:

(a) the name of the service provider;

(b) the geographic address at which the service provider is established;

(c) the details of the service provider, including his electronic mail address, which allow him to be contacted rapidly and communicated with in a direct and effective manner;

(d) where the service provider is registered in a trade or similar public register, the trade register in which the service provider is entered and his registration number, or equivalent means of identification in that register;

The definition of "service provider" is (b) "any natural or legal person providing an information society service".

This is a basic requirement of European Union trade. It's intended to encourage cross-border trade, by insuring that, if there is a problem, the customer can find the seller. So, anonymous online businesses are illegal in the EU.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX...

spankalee• 5 years ago

I don't understand how sending analytics data to your own host is supposed to solve the legal problem here. Do the GDPR requirements not apply in that case?

And how is anyone supposed to build any kind of global data dashboard now? Do you have to have separate sites for EU analytics data vs the rest of the world? How do you do statistics to see where your visitors come from? How much time visitors from which countries, languages, etc., spend on your sites?

buf• 5 years ago

I just got off a zoom call with the cofounder of simpleanalytics.com. Humble, worked with my startup on pricing options, and cares a lot about privacy which was the reason why I set up the call.

Shame on PostHog for this. You can do better than PostHog.

mfer• 5 years ago

The safest solution is to use an analytics provider that keeps data on your own infrastructure.

People don't want to run their own infrastructure anymore. Everything outside of their own business differentiator they want to outsource. Whether they "should" do it debatable and a long conversation with context like business value, cost effectiveness, velocity, and other non-technical things as part of the conversation.

This would be a great advertising moment for an EU based analytics provider. A SaaS.

openplatypus3• 5 years ago

There are many alternatives. Some are purely EU enterprises, some use hosting by US entities. But it appears that more than ever, there is a lot of to choose from.

Just search in your search engine of choice and you will find plenty. Lots of comparison online. Some are more, some are less complete or accurate. With advent of affiliate marketing among vendors, the reviews start resembling VPN market.

Not listing anything specific. My company has a product in this space, but I will spare you self-promotion.

sneak• 5 years ago

I frequently wonder what sort of tracking, if any, is happening via fonts.google.com and gstatic.com which are used widely across the web. Many sites break if you block resources from gstatic.com, as they depend on javascript libraries from it.

The shortsightedness of using remote static assets on your own site is amazing to me.

keewee7• 5 years ago

PostHog

lol that is funny. "post hog" is a term that originated from the radical left r/ChapoTrapHouse subreddit.

Are there other tech companies founded by openly anti-capitalist leftists?

coding123• 5 years ago

This is absolutely not a "Show HN"

https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html

cardosof• 5 years ago

In the old world, a company would build the television, another would broadcast shows, another would measure the audience and another would measure sales to compare with media investments.

Which of those steps Google does today? All of them, from browser to YouTube to shopping to audience data and sales measurements. This is not a case of "old people ranting about how the old world was simpler and better", it's a case of conflict of interest. But this isn't something new, everyone in the industry has been seeing that for two decades now, it's just something no one cares enough to pick a fight.

ianbutler• 5 years ago

So the reason people do emotionally charged marketing like this is because it generally works. We on HN are probably not (entirely) the same group that this is getting sold to, we may see the BS here a little more clearly or have a more principled view on things like this.

BUT most people do not have the same distaste towards this type of marketing so -- don't hate the players, hate the game. If you want things like this to stop then it's probably up to government regulation to curtail it otherwise, for smaller competitors where it's already difficult enough to establish a market position, they would just be hamstringing themselves by not playing to the same emotionally charged marketing style.

If you're a business and you deliberately stay away from marketing like this -- that's great, honestly I'm personally more likely to try your product and I'd like to think I'd do the same in my own work but I really can't blame companies who take this route either.

1010082• 5 years ago

I have a few blogs with visitors from around the world hosted in NYC in a shared hosting. What's a legal alternative to Google Analytics that would be as easy to setup? I dont want to host anything myself, just replace the JS that Analytics provide and that's all. If I can import my historic data from GA to the new service that would be perfect. Does such a service exist? We can't ask bloggers who install Wordpress to run a instance of Matomo, PostHog, Plausible or whatever.

ceejayoz2• 5 years ago

Frankly, "hosted in NYC" probably has the same issues as "uses Google Analytics". Data on EU citizens is leaving the EU for a country without similar privacy protections.

1010082• 5 years ago

What's the solution then? Block my website for European visitors? It is not a bussiness, just a blog.

thinkindie• 5 years ago

I think this page is pretty misleading https://isgoogleanalyticsillegal.com/alternatives/

they are listing PostHog as a valid alternative that would be GDPR-friendly but as per their terms of use PostHog is based in the US and they would be bound by the same Cloud Act as Google Analytics.

GordonS• 5 years ago

Anyone have suggestions for a lightweight, OSS Google Analytics alternative, preferably using a Postgres backend, and preferably server-side so no cookies or JavaScript are required? Only needs to handle max 10K visitors a day, which is nothing really.

I had a quick look at PostHog, but it seems to need all of these in addition to the web UI:

  - Postgres
  - Redis
  - ClickHouse
  - ZooKeeper
  - Kafka

That's... a lot. I realise there is a Docker Compose file available, but it's the amount of resources used that is concerning, and given my very modest requirements I was hoping for something very light.

AtNightWeCode• 5 years ago

Is this accurate?

We have the Schrems II ruling that made some countries think they could not use services like Cloudflare and Azure. Still Cloudflare and Azure are widely used within EU. (Germany is an outcast). One should as always be transparent about what data is collected. From the GA projects I been involved in (in EU) GDPR has never been a concern.

StreamBright2• 5 years ago

I hope it will be soon.

cblconfederate• 5 years ago

Europe celebrating for becoming a regulatory minefield is not a good sign.

adhesive_wombat• 5 years ago

Nice to see something happening in the GDPR compliance areas, because well over 90% of cookie banners are noncompliant with GDPR because they don't give "allow" and "reject" equal prominence (or they load cookies before you click accept).

For example, OneTrust gets it right on their website, but I have never seen a client of theirs get it right. So either OneTrust doesn't use their own software, or all their clients are specifically configuring it in a non-compliant way.

I have yet to hear of any general enforcement of this, despite noyb.eu's reporting of hundreds of websites to regulators.

mleonhard• 5 years ago

Firebase client libraries silently import and enable Google Analytics in apps [0]. Then your app silently sends a lot of user behavior data to Google [1].

Android apps which use push notifications must use the Firebase Cloud Messaging library. I think many app developers don't realize that adding that library also adds and enables analytics.

For example, adding the `firebase_messaging` module [2] to a Flutter app causes the Android build to import [3] the `com.google.firebase:firebase-bom` Java dep which includes `firebase-analytics` [4]. Once the Java library is included in the build, it starts working automatically [0].

To disable Google Analytics in an app:

* Firebase > Docs > Engage > Configure Analytics Data Collection and Usage [5]

* dart > firebase_analytics > FirebaseAnalytics > setAnalyticsCollectionEnabled method [6]

* Be sure to check the logs to make sure your change took effect. See "Firebase Google Group > Disabling analytics for iOS has no effect?" [7]

[0] https://support.google.com/analytics/answer/9353532

[1] https://support.google.com/firebase/answer/9234069

[2] https://pub.dev/packages/firebase_messaging

[3] https://github.com/FirebaseExtended/flutterfire/blob/a9562ba...

[4] https://mvnrepository.com/artifact/com.google.firebase/fireb...

[5] https://firebase.google.com/docs/analytics/configure-data-co...

[6] https://pub.dev/documentation/firebase_analytics/latest/fire...

[7] https://groups.google.com/g/firebase-talk/c/rved9bIBT0g/m/YN...

jbergens• 5 years ago

The bigger issue in my view is that Azure, AWS and GCP may be illegal. What should we use instead? How much will it cost to switch?

no_time• 5 years ago

"nooooo I have to put extra effort into loading up my saas grifting operation with the required amount of spyware"

I'm not gonna lie, these tears are delicious.

kennu• 5 years ago

My country was cropped out even though it's part of the EU. Silly website.

Is Google Analytics illegal in your country?

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