Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/24/locked-out-new-zealanders-outraged-as-visa-scheme-for-rich-foreigners-resumes

by perihelions • 5 years ago

205 207 5 years ago

theguardian.com

throwaway7883• 5 years ago

The last allocation of MIQ slots had 800+ rooms that were not taken. Anyone who urgently needed to return had the ability to secure a room in December.

When Omicron appeared and it hadn’t been detected within the community in NZ it was obvious the NZ government would make changes to delay its introduction by moving to tighten MIQ settings and delaying any removal of quarantine restrictions.

https://www.miq.govt.nz/about/news/miqs-12th-voucher-release...

vanusa5• 5 years ago

Anyone who urgently needed to return had the ability to secure a room in December.

I don't see how this is relevant.

Moving forward, citizens and migrant workers will still be forced to get in line behind wealthy investors.

smackeyacky• 5 years ago

Amazing isn't it. We found out who exactly essential workers were (food service, transport, medical, teachers) and also how the rules imposed on all of us were remarkably selective based on wealth. I guess we knew it, but to have it demonstrated in such stark terms has been breathtaking.

pmontra• 5 years ago

I'm not a NZ citizen, nor resident nor I have interest in getting there except maybe as a tourist someday. Anyway if I would apply for entry to NZ or any other country I'd expect that all citizens jump the line in front of me, then everyone paying millions, then everybody else.

throwaway7883• 5 years ago

When it comes to MIQ allocation they aren’t put ahead of anyone - everyone who has the ability to enter NZ has the same chance and ability to obtain MIQ slots.

bener6• 5 years ago

Citizens are not in line behind wealthy investors, they don't need visas.

postingawayonhn3• 5 years ago

All of the January and February rooms were taken. There were some rooms left for the remaining two weeks in December (likely too shot notice for many people) and March (the quarantine system was meant to mostly end by then).

sh4un3• 5 years ago

It's funny because most countries have cautioned people not to leave right now and people just go anyways. No one is shedding tears when you are stuck because you couldn't wait for your budget vacation.

GekkePrutser2• 5 years ago

It's not always vacation. Many people have close family abroad that they want you see. Sometimes with medical issues so they may not get another chance.

I wouldn't travel if vacation was the only reason. Especially if I were living in NZ which is one of the most beautiful places on earth IMO

It's also kinda unfair to expect people to have seen Omikron coming :) with the distance to Europe most people from here in NZ only visit family once a year and often go for months. Suddenly returning would have been difficult and costly.

I'm surprised the fairly left-wing current NZ government is prioritising investors like this though.

newnamenewface2• 5 years ago

It's also kinda unfair to expect people to have seen Omikron coming

Perhaps, it's unfair that the government is obligating severe COVID restrictions on travel for citizens (and non-citizens, alike) in a country with 80+% vaccination rates for a disease that's essentially endemic at this point. NZ seems to be just pushing the problem down the line at this point. There will never be a time where they can just open without any cases so why are they still so incredibly restrictive?

FWIW: I am not a NZer, I don't plan to visit NZ any time soon, and I'll admit I'm relatively unversed on the political situation in NZ.

sh4un3• 5 years ago

In countries like Canada a lot of people signed up for government benefits and went back to their origin country to stretch their free money and then got stuck when the money stopped and the government stopped letting people back in.

The people you hear whining are not the people leaving for medical reasons. It's almost a sport watching people on the news complain about their ruined vacations.

InvertedRhodium3• 5 years ago

It's not always vacation. Many people have close family abroad that they want you see.

How is that not a vacation?

Macha• 5 years ago

So what happens if you're a NZer who can not get a MIQ slot (which may have been more plentiful when you left), but your Visa in your current location is expiring?

aunty_helen4• 5 years ago

You have to plead with the country you're in. Or apply for one of the emergency slots the week you have to leave (pretty difficult at the moment given the flight schedules).

Or yano, deportation / imprisonment...

There's not many good solutions in this case and it is very difficult to match a reservation spot with an airline ticket out.

incompatible2• 5 years ago

You can come to Australia, as another option. I think the borders are open for NZers who can get a 444 visa (but don't take my word for it, double check with the government before booking a ticket).

chii• 5 years ago

deportation

isn't this what you'd want? deported back to your country? It's not like you could be denied entry at the airport, and deported back to the foreign country...

philliphaydon• 5 years ago

As far as I’m concerned. They don’t care. Wife and I were leaving singapore and got emergency visa for her as we would be stranded in singapore with no where to live and MIQ didn’t care at all. Unless we were able to get a letter or proof we can’t stay in singapore we were not provided any assistance while MIQ was in lock down.

Luckily Taiwan border opened up at the last minute and we were able to travel there instead.

Basically the whole quarantine and MIQ is a massive cluster fuck mess. And you can’t even call anyone. You can only contact them via email.

nimbius• 5 years ago

I think the cat was out of the bag when kimdotcom was indicted. New Zealand is bought and paid for by the cloistered elite seemingly against any real argument by the locals.

You could make an argument the work here/look see initiative that imported skilled labor was somehow a counter indication of a plutocracy but I think its largely just salt in the wound for the average NZ resident as it ran defense for anyone who pointed a finger at silicon valley for buying their island oasis. They could have spent that money on stem education locally but outright chose not to.

selimthegrim• 5 years ago

What’s the point of spending more on STEM education when the absurdly low salaries for tech and IT positions already have them going begging for workers?

gameswithgo• 5 years ago

Increase the supply

roca10• 5 years ago

Counterpoint: Larry Page entered NZ in early 2021 and was placed in a middling MIQ hotel. His people tried to get him moved to one of the best hotels but were unable to do so. Page is the world's fifth richest person. I think this counts against "New Zealand is bought and paid for by the cloistered elite".

vasco• 5 years ago

They severely restricted the freedom to return home from all citizens but since they also made billionaire stay in a middle of the road hotel this is what sticks?

rasz• 5 years ago

Was this at the time he was allowed to enter NZ despite Total ban on entry?

NZ charter 4200 kilometer medevac flight while country is on total lock down, and the emergency is so urgent whole thing takes >24 hours before the flight even takes off.

“The day after the application was received, a New Zealand air ambulance staffed by a New Zealand ICU nurse-escort medevaced the child and an adult family member from Fiji to New Zealand,”

https://apnews.com/article/technology-lifestyle-travel-new-z...

Reminder, Sydney is merely 1 hour extra flight time away and borders were wide open in January.

parkingrift2• 5 years ago

Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff.
With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been largely closed to non-quarantined international travel since March 2020 to protect against Covid-19.

So… these people have pledged to invest huge sums of money into NZ and the end result is that they have to apply for the same MIQ spots as everyone else?

Seems the outrage should be directed at this MIQ system. The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ.

tuatoru2• 5 years ago

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection.

The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle.

Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of corruption, transparency, and ease of doing business.

Abandoning the rule of law leads eventually to autocracy. From this distance the US appears to be well down that road.

refurb5• 5 years ago

But this is the rule of law? These folks with their new visas line up just like everyone else for an MIQ slot?

parkingrift2• 5 years ago

Which part of the rule of law is being violated here?

cryptodan• 5 years ago

The visa programs should be halted until all citizens can equally compete. There is no fair competition here. The quarantined are being pissed on while wealthy players continue to live freely. Do you not understand that? Rules for thee but nit for me applies here.

fennecfoxen2• 5 years ago

You are not describing Rule of Law. The rule of law is what you use to say that people are treated according to the law, not given special exceptions or punishments because of how much they are liked or hated. The opposite of the rule of law is generally the “rule of men” and is typified by the powerful having the discretion to punish enemies on a whim. Consider, for instance, someone who brings forth a charge of sexual assault against a minister, and is disappeared. The law, however, seems to be followed here.

What you are describing, in any event, is more about Equal Treatment Under the Law, in a moral sense (avoiding any excuse that could read like “anyone can invest $10 million so it’s technically open to everyone”).

But as others here say, the visa holders get in line for limited quarantine facilities like anyone else. It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority. There is a reasonable case you should prioritize existing citizens over new residents, as they likely have greater reliance interests on their legal residence, but it’s not any rule-of-law or equal-treatment claim.

aunty_helen4• 5 years ago

Honestly, the entire MIQ program is a gross violation of the bill of rights and several international treaties. So I don't think the rule of law goes very far in NZ as they seem to just handwave it away and most people in NZ couldn't care less because of the fear they have from living reasonably isolated for the past year and a half.

NZers should expect to be on the hook for at least a few class action lawsuits for damages. For example people who have watched loved ones die on a video call because they haven't been rightfully allowed back into their country.

It's going to cost in the long run but the dust hasn't settled yet. I'll be joining up for damages and a few months extra living costs placed on me before I could get a MIQ spot.

onphonenow• 5 years ago

Um, folks get a visa and wait in line for MIQ. That's both the law and just like everyone else with a visa.

Are you supporting mob rule? If so, you might wish to move to another country where "outrage" can lead to people getting killed right on the street in front of you.

Seriously, if you see "outraged" in a headline, be careful.

unethical_ban• 5 years ago

Your tone is getting backlash, not your point. It's fair to say that citizens should not be put ahead of noncitizens trying to get back into the country during a crisis.

Let's say a time comes when every NZ'er who wants to get back to the country can do so immediately. Do you think it would be wrong for NZ to prioritize immigrants who can bring material wealth to the economy in general (not to politicians specifically)?

It's the monetary equivalent of importing intelligent students to top-tier graduate programs.

cscurmudgeon2• 5 years ago

Why does every discussion about some random country have to involve the US? It is getting really boring seeing the same mid-brow flawed arguments rehashed everywhere from Reddit's worldnews to HN.

Btw, NZ can afford to maintain a top spot on all these lists because it is a gated country with population less than that of NYC.

NZ's borders have always been closed for the world's poor. Now it is closed for non-elites and the just plain rich are revolting against it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/22/on-the-edge-ar...

Critics say failing to allow family members to join skilled workers will undermine post-pandemic recovery

If the US did a fraction of that for H1B workers, there would have been virtue signaling speeches in the UN.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tough-rules-see-migrants-give-...

Be a bit more generous like the US for immigration, and then we will see how the US and NZ fare.

AmericanChopper2• 5 years ago

Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of corruption

This corruptions indices are pretty much always “corruption perception” indices, as in, New Zealanders consider their country to be less corrupt than other countries, not that it actually is less corrupt than other countries.

GuB-42• 5 years ago

Unless I didn't understand the situation, these "wealthy" visas are the law.

Rule of law doesn't mean the law can't make a difference between the rich and the poor, in fact, it is very common in tax law (the rich pay more taxes), but not only.

Rule of law just means "no corruption", essentially. That the laws are the only criteria for judging people, it is not a discussion about the fairness of the law itself. It there is a "no parking" sign, then under the rule of law, no one will be allowed to park, including Bob, who will be fined/towed like everyone else. But if the sign says "no parking, except for Bob", then Bob will be allowed to park even if people find it unfair.

Usually, high rule of law countries are also democracies, so laws are made by elected officials, or even directly by people, and fairness is an important part of the lawmaking process. Indeed, people are usually reticent to apply laws they feel unfair, but technically, rule of law can apply even in the most unfair, despotic systems.

janeroe3• 5 years ago

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law.
From this distance the US appears to be well down that road.

And yet you're the ones who are locked.

sofixa• 5 years ago

The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle.

The industrialisation of Tsarist Russia kind of disproves that.

Abandoning the rule of law leads eventually to autocracy. From this distance the US appears to be well down that road.

I agree with that.

chrisseaton• 5 years ago

we try to have something called the Rule of Law

Not sure why you’re talking about the idea rule of law like it’s something New Zealand invented or is somehow novel or unique?

tjpnz3• 5 years ago

The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ.

This scheme was once touted as a way to jump start the NZ tech sector but it doesn't appear to be having any impact. Those getting the visa might only be in the country a few weeks in a year and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades. The most scathing part of all is that New Zealand's still a terrible place to build a startup.

q1w22• 5 years ago

...and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades.

Not all investment sparks innovation - and innovation takes years. I would not expect people investing their life savings to get into NZ to invest in high-risk tech startups, but the investments they make will help the NZ economy all the same.

Investment flow where risk-adjusted returns are highest - that's the nice thing about free markets - you don't have to plan where to put the money - it'll go where it's most demanded.

yardstick8• 5 years ago

While NZ’s lack of capital gains tax should make it enticing, the terrible overseas investment policies/taxes make it less appealing to multi-national companies and investors.

To those outside NZ: owning shares in non-NZ companies typically means a 5% yearly wealth tax if the shares don’t pay dividends (Ie most tech companies that are share price growth driven).

See https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/income-tax-for-businesses...

csomar3• 5 years ago

Could it be because New Zealand is an agricultural economy that just also happens to be a very good place to live in?

There is a market to offering rich people passports. New Zealand is just Vanuatu but with extra-steps.

yardstick8• 5 years ago

Seems the outrage should be directed at this MIQ system. The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ.

You are absolutely correct on both counts. If we didn’t have MIQ, this would be a non-issue to most kiwis.

The root of it is MIQ has prevented kiwis from traveling to/from NZ for the last 2 years. This has created massive strain on separated families and extended families. It has created stress on those in NZ who cannot leave because the govt won’t let them return without a MIQ slot.

Globally, the pandemic has moved on from elimination to coexistence. Vaccines, good hygiene, being sensible.

NZ’s continued use of MIQ/draconian restrictions on freedom of movement is counter to what needs to happen (return to business as usual).

At this current point in time, with over 90% of eligible people vaccinated, the trade off between lives saved by MIQ vs returning to normality does not, IMO and a lot of other kiwis, justify the continuation of MIQ.

csomar3• 5 years ago

NZ’s continued use of MIQ/draconian restrictions on freedom of movement is counter to what needs to happen (return to business as usual).

The picture should be clearer now? The business of NZ is selling to foreign investors. They are closing to contain the coronavirus because what matters are these foreign $$.

joeman1000• 5 years ago

The visa scheme just leads to disenfranchisement of New Zealanders as they are slowly priced out of everything. Farm land is quickly being bought by foreigners in both Australia and NZ, which is having negative impacts on both of those countries. The countries are essentially being sold out from under their citizens.

ilrwbwrkhv3• 5 years ago

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. You don't even need to know the language. Immigration and all these gimmicks are for peasants only.

vanusa5• 5 years ago

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich.

This isn't about simply "buying citizenship".

It's about literally bouncing people who are already citizens out (for the duration of the pandemic).

passerby1• 5 years ago

Although controversal, there's no clear way to resolve utilitarian way of seeing this: an investment is required, and sometimes the investment can be good for society by improving a country economy. For sure, the condition is paying taxes, and that is usually a partially satisfied only, as there're almost always a way to avoid tax. (Otherwise what's the reason for a rich one to invest into country at all?)

bener6• 5 years ago

It's not. It gives rich people more chance at getting a visa. People who are already citizens don't need a visa.

roca10• 5 years ago

"Bounced out"? No citizens are being forced to leave the country.

These new visa holders just make it a little bit harder for citizens and residents to enter the country, that's all. Over 200,000 people have gone through MIQ during the pandemic --- that's a lot for a population of 5M. People who wanted to come back since the start of the pandemic have been able to come back.

xdennis2• 5 years ago

Are you certain about that? Few countries actually whore themselves out.

ilrwbwrkhv3• 5 years ago

Yup certain. It is surprising that all the countries which complain about illegal immigration open their legs wide when you have the money. Looking at US, UK in particular.

tchalla• 5 years ago

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich.

I don't think you can buy citizenship in most Central/Western European countries. You may be able to buy residence status but not citizenship.

ratorx• 5 years ago

I think the parent is treating citizenship == permanentish visa in his comment. The article is also about a Investor visa, not citizenship.

I’ve checked 2 (UK and Switzerland) and both offer some form of Investor visa, so it’s really no different to the New Zealand situation (other than general restrictions on entering the country).

ilrwbwrkhv3• 5 years ago

Permanent residency of some kind and citizenship right after. All the biggest Western European countries. Trust me when you have money, everyone's a whore.

jordansmithnz• 5 years ago

New Zealander here. My wife and I just made it through the MIQ system in time to see our families for Christmas (and introduce our son to his grandparents for the first time). A few interesting things:

- we had to enter the MIQ lottery five times before ‘winning’ a spot. The lottery system is the same used by some shoe drops and ticket reservations, and there is no weighting given to citizens that have enrolled in previous lotteries.

- when you make it through the lottery and select a date, it has to match the date you arrive in NZ exactly. If flights only go to NZ on certain dates, and those dates are all taken, then you’re out of luck. Many people make it through the lottery only to find that there are no dates left that work.

- you are not told what MIQ hotel room or city you will be in until you arrive in NZ. At that point you may be flown across the country (adding and extra 5+ hours to the end of an international trip), and placed in who-knows-what hotel. You are charged a set fee for the hotel.

- at every stage of your stay at MIQ, the people running the show have the ability to prolong your stay if they believe there is any COVID risk. The morning we were packing our bags to leave, the hotel called to say we needed to stay in our room while they waited on an urgent COVID test for a suspected positive case. Had the result actually been positive, most of the hotel (everyone from our flight) would have needed to stay additional days.

- ‘famous’ people go through MIQ too. We met someone on the flight that plays the lead role in a popular TV series. Like everyone else, they were flown across the country and placed in a hotel room.

- the hotel food is usually not great. We were fortunate enough to be in an Uber Eats delivery area, so we ordered out a few times.

In regards to the linked article: the real problem, at least to me, is that New Zealand citizens with an urgent need to come home (visa, sick relative, funeral, etc) are not always able to do so.

MIQ is an interesting experience, and at least at the start of COVID it made it possible for NZ preserve a pre-pandemic way of life. Now that we’re years into COVID and vaccines are readily available, it’s extremely frustrating for New Zealanders with family or loved ones overseas. Public opinion is steadily shifting towards ‘open up the country’, and the government has announced some tentative dates for doing this (although they were recently shifted back due to omicron).

atweiden• 5 years ago

Now that we’re years into COVID and vaccines are readily available, it’s extremely frustrating for New Zealanders with family or loved ones overseas. Public opinion is steadily shifting towards ‘open up the country’, and the government has announced some tentative dates for doing this (although they were recently shifted back due to omicron).

As someone who was in a Covid-free region of Australia all throughout the pandemic, I’ve seen first-hand what happens when borders are reopened. Local businesses are far less harmed from closed borders than they are from people avoiding clustering in indoor areas — either out of an abundance of caution for their health, or to avoid becoming a “close contact” of a Covid-19 case and then being forced into quarantine. Once borders reopen, associated mask mandates give everyone needless anxiety, while the hospital system beginning to buckle becomes a constant source of fear.

Closed borders allowed Australia and New Zealand to perform better economically than more permissive countries, and allowed their residents to live life like it was still 2019.

Permissive countries like America merely pretended to allow life to go on like it was 2019, while their conservative media exported tone deaf rationalizations for permissiveness to AU & NZ residents who were on average far better off than they were. The American media’s attempts at guilting antipodeans for closing themselves off to the world were laughed off as completely bizarre — most people were all too happy to allow the rest of the world to think they were doing it tough living their happy, blissful, Covid-free lives behind impenetrable borders.

AU & NZ would probably have at least another year of normal life left to live if their governments had directed international arrivals to quarantine in dedicated facilities in remote locations rather than in retrofitted hotels smack dab in the center of major urban areas.

throwaway55421• 5 years ago

Mask mandates are a political choice, though.

The UK was doing well throughout all of Summer and we've only now had a bit of an Omicron scare due to people not wanting to self isolate over Christmas.

Most people aren't that bothered about corona, they respond to legal threats and marketing.

jollybean3• 5 years ago

This is mostly a problem with the bad rules around quarantining, which should not be a problem.

It's 2021, are humans able to 'stay away from others' in spaces that are large and vast?

Use some common sense and figure it out, there should be no material impedements here.

bener6• 5 years ago

You think people would voluntarily isolate from each other without any rules in place?

jollybean3• 5 years ago

I don't think everyone would follow the rules, but I don't see that as a limitation to allowing people in.

Frankly, being allowed back in your country is probably along the lines of 'human right' and there probably is not any condition in which the government could not allow it.

There's plenty of ways to allow for isolation.

NZ Climate is actually temperate, they could even have individual military tents with cots and plastic outhouses, while not exactly luxury, it could accommodate almost anyone, and most people esp. those under 35 wouldn't have a problem.

They could even do a rapid build of low quality structures i.e. mini-huts, pre-fab style, put them in locations outside the city.

Though a bit authoritarian, even ankle bracelets could be used in some case maybe for home quarantine.

Commandeering motels and hotels and putting the Health Authorities right on premise.

In Taiwan, when you arrive they don't want you on the public transit so they rent you a car.

They arrive to your home 10 minutes after you do with masks and explain the deal. They check up on you every day sometimes in person, sometimes by phone.

I suggest that most people will 'get the idea' when a government rep. is directly communicating to them, checking up, answering questions, letting them know the 'real boundaries' aka 'you can't go out for coffee', 'you can't have your family over etc.'

There shouldn't be much of a wait for that kind of thing.

Taniwha2• 5 years ago

IMHO this is largely a political storm in a teacup. There has been limited space in quarantine (MIQ) for returning residents over the past year, though this month there is space going free. A vocal group of people stuck overseas by this bottleneck have made a lot of noise about this (and fair enough too). And it's been amplified by the current government's political opposition, as I mentioned above it's not actually a real issue right now (omicron might change this).

The small number of people being granted these residency visas won't get priority in MIQ they'll have to queue with everyone else. What we are seeing here is a small resumption of our normal immigration regime, we're also resuming taking in refugees

silexia• 5 years ago

The solution is simple... Shut down the unnecessary MIQ system. Everyone has had the opportunity to get vaccinated and risks for those is now back to as low as it was prior to the pandemic.

pixel_fcker7• 5 years ago

What about people who can’t take the vaccine for medical reasons, or are too young? Fuck ‘em right?

CallMeJim• 5 years ago

Yes, exactly!

The 90% can't live isolated forever because of the 0.2% who can't have vaccines for medical reasons. (The remainder is made up of those who've made anti-vaxx part of their identity).

Put that money and resources into protecting the vulnerable, not into isolating New Zealand and severely impacting the economy in a vain attempt to keep a virus, which will be with us together, out.

Human lives aren't infinitely valuable. As an example, there were 318 road deaths in New Zealand in 2020, which could all have been avoided by lowering the speed limit to 10kmh.

This isn't a solution that would ever be considered seriously, because it's evident that the financial and flow-on social harm caused by such a rule would greatly outweigh the current death toll.

It's becoming increasingly evident that 'protecting those who can't be vaccinated by stifling New Zealand in draconian restrictions' is the same.

grandpoobah• 5 years ago

As far as I can tell, those who might normally be unable to take vaccines are being encouraged to do so with COVID.

The old "we all need to get vaccinated so that those who can't are protected by herd immunity" thing doesn't seem to apply here.

Example - https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/third-p...

dzhiurgis8• 5 years ago

There’s like 100 people in whole of NZ who can’t take the vaccine due to medical reasons.

bener6• 5 years ago

I think it's lucky you aren't in charge. None of it is simple and you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

josephcsible3• 5 years ago

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13 says "Everyone has the right to [...] return to his country").

lancewiggs• 5 years ago

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled.

As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but their lockdown conditions today were far far worse than what we have here.

Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.

There were free MIQ slots 2 weeks ago.

josephcsible3• 5 years ago

Do you think MIQ will stop community spread in New Zealand forever? If not, then all of those bad things will happen anyway, but by not abolishing MIQ, all of the bad things it causes will happen too. And if everyone were locked in an isolated room from birth, nobody would ever die of any contagious disease, but clearly that's not the right answer.

refurb5• 5 years ago

Who said abolish it? How about actually designing a system with enough slots so citizens can freely return? Other countries have done this, and controlled Covid, so why can Australia or NZ do it?

pierre-renaux• 5 years ago

Doesn't that just mean that NZ outsourced taking care of the expat NZ nationals that have Covid - and the cost of part of the Covid epidemic - to other countries though?

Not allowing your own citizen to return home is something that should be unthinkable really.

BuyMyBitcoins• 5 years ago

”Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.”

This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary.

”many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled.”

You’re saying this would happen with widespread Covid, but this same outcome can happen with excessive containment. So many mom and pop small business have closed in my town since the pandemic began. And I live in America, where we aren’t nearly as restrictive.

ThrowAwayKiwi22• 5 years ago

Lance, honestly this is a pathetic reply. New Zealand is already riddled with Covid incase you havent noticed. Cases detected in the community outnumber those at the border 27x for the last week. Given this fact, why does MIQ still exist?

Preventing new variants? Sure at the surface that might hold some credence, but that implies future responses will be to lock down again and impose massive economic costs and second/third order negative externalities on the population again... There will be more variants gauranteed, so what is being gauranteed here is perpetual restrictions, fragility and life in a hermit kingdom.

On your point around Xmas with three generations, congratulations, but without rapid lateral flow at home testing (which is still unavailable in New Zealand - wowee!), you might have unknowingly just had a super spreading event. The slowness of NZ policy to adapt to technological innovations is a real blight.

By the way New Zealands society decided no such thing; intellectual honesty goes a long way when presenting an arguement. Did we have a referendum to determine no one should die from covid? Its quite a perposterous thing to say.

Reality is MIQ was a knee jerk reaction by the MoH in March '20, faced with the stark realisation healthcare and its supporting beuracratic system was not up for the job. It still isnt and has no path to getting there. That is the real tragedy.

Big thinking and strategy is sorely needed in New Zealand. It's a shame all we get is confusion and people like yourself who think they know something trying to lead the narrative.

I was once a proud Kiwi, now I look on from afar and am saddened at the squandered potential of the place, underacheivment and lack of awareness are rife.

rosndo• 5 years ago

Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.

This is hilarious. Why hasn’t your society decided that nobody should die from obesity? Obesity kills far more people every year than COVID ever will, and would be a far easier problem to solve through legislation.

Why does NZ grant visas to obese people? Why are obese people allowed to go to restaurants or work? If the government made it difficult to be fat, far less people would die.

refurb5• 5 years ago

Yup. Even authoritarian Singapore didn’t restrict its citizens from returning. It imposed rules on testing and quarantine, but they were free to jump on the next flight home.

Incredible seeing democracies like Australia and NZ tell their own citizens “no, you cant come home”.

Aerroon2• 5 years ago

Incredible seeing democracies like Australia and NZ tell their own citizens “no, you cant come home”.

To be fair, it's not their first dance with authoritarian measures. Both countries also employ widespread censorship for movies and video games among other things. Perhaps it shouldn't be that unexpected that they would cross the line on this too.

will42742• 5 years ago

Incredible seeing democracies like Australia

This one always get a chuckle out of me. Australia is the most facist Western power. It barely has a free media because some rich dude bought it all. They wanted an egregious law forcibly drafting their citizens into being spies if they worked for tech companies. They extensively spy on the internet. They censor video games. The list goes on and on.

jimjimjim4• 5 years ago

later, they came go home later

roca10• 5 years ago

The right to return to NZ does not automatically trump all other considerations.

Without MIQ we couldn't have executed our elimination strategy. Probably thousands of people would have died of COVID, or we would have had stronger and longer lockdowns --- probably both --- all highly detrimental to the well-being of people living in NZ.

So why should the right of return take priority over all that?

someotherperson• 5 years ago

That sounds like fanciful thinking.

There is quite literally nothing to suggest that having a higher intake would have created a single additional death or resulted in stronger or longer lockdowns.

New Zealand's own incompetence in not being able to come up with purpose-built facilities to handle overseas arrivals can't be written off with hypotheticals. It has been two years, no more excuses.

yardstick8• 5 years ago

NZ could have added more capacity to MIQ. It could have started working on adding more healthcare resources (it’s been 2 years already, how many new intubators have we added? How many nurses and doctors have we recruited overseas? Or have we just locked the gate and put our hands in our ears?)

NZ has had more than enough time to prepare for COVID in a post elimination world. Why does MIQ still exist?

Why did NZ provide MIQ slots for non essential sports journeys like the Olympics and All Blacks tours. Do you think any Olympian or All Black could look the son or daughter of a dead parent in the eye and say that it was right for their space in MIQ to take precedence over the chance for a loved one to say goodbye for one last time?

jimjimjim4• 5 years ago

and do what, have a nice big ole covid party? why?

laingc• 5 years ago

As a New Zealander, I am super supportive of easier pathways for wealthy people to bring themselves, their expertise, their connections, and their money here.

Furthermore, my anecdotal observation is that articles in The Guardian about New Zealand reflect not reality, but rather the talking points of a very small subset of the hard Left of our political class. I know that this is The Guardian’s line in general, but it somehow feels more egregious when applied to a situation I’m more personally familiar with.

blibble• 5 years ago

Furthermore, my anecdotal observation is that articles in The Guardian about New Zealand reflect not reality, but rather the talking points of a very small subset of the hard Left of our political class.

their UK coverage is similar also

they were previously reputable (if slightly biased), but post 2016 reputability seemed to cease to be a priority

vanusa5• 5 years ago

As a New Zealander, I am super supportive of easier pathways for wealthy people to bring themselves, their expertise, their connections, and their money here.

Do you support denying re-entry to people who are already citizens as a means of doing that?

pixel_fcker7• 5 years ago

This isn’t what’s happening. Everyone trying to enter the country has to go through the MIQ system, regardless of whether they’re a citizen, have one of these visas, or any other type of visa.

pixel_fcker7• 5 years ago

You said:

Do you support denying re-entry to people who are already citizens as a means of doing that?

Which implies the people entering on these visas are taking places away from someone else but they’re not, they’re entering the same lottery system as everyone else. Unless you’re suggesting that only citizens should be allowed to enter the country?

anothernewdude2• 5 years ago

Yeah, more skilled corruption is what we need.

will42742• 5 years ago

Fwiw, you're basically describing the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect without naming it. You're an expert on NZ, so it feels egregious, but you're not an expert on the next pages' topic, so the misleading information doesn't stick out or bother you as much.

garbagetime• 5 years ago

As a New Zealander, I am in favour of immigration policy being determined in a democratic fashion.

iandanforth• 5 years ago

Wouldn't it be simpler if you could just pay for N additional spots to be opened by your financing? If MIQ spots are limited due to finances and you can solve that problem that seems like a win-win. If there's an indirectness where the finances go somewhere else and the MIQ pie gets smaller for citizens at the same time, that's obviously going to cause outrage. This seems like one of those rare situations where more direct graft would be better.

roca10• 5 years ago

In practice MIQ capacity has been limited by the number of suitable hotels available, and the difficulty of staffing them. These resources are not very elastic.

yardstick8• 5 years ago

Taiwan operates an effective home quarantine system (and 850 deaths for a 23m population). Why couldn’t NZ? There would be a lot more capacity that way.

starklevnertz2• 5 years ago

It’s money that matters. All the poor people who have a problem with this scheme need to be realistic about how the world works and stop complaining.

(Snark, to be clear).

starklevnertz2• 5 years ago

What proof is required that the money is legally obtained?

Or is it simply open money laundering for international criminals?

vmception• 5 years ago

Typically standard KYC/AML.

Standard meaning that if it made it into a licensed institution that also does KYC/AML then its good enough for us!

Basically the concept is that its up to the customer to get money magically graced and cleared by their host government, and if there is not currently a problem its not anyone’s problem.

Think about it: what is legal?

China says that people with their currency cant move more than an equivalent of $50k/year out. If someone only earns Yuan on mainland China but has enough liquid money elsewhere to invest in this program, is it your problem to care about China’s currency controls to suggest this money violated that?

Well the same standard applies even if you were imagining terrorist financing and cartels.

There is no adequate system to know or care.

anothernewdude2• 5 years ago

Should be arresting these rich foreigners as criminals and deporting them to Australia

heax• 5 years ago

The proles should try eating cake if they are out of bread :)

jimworm2• 5 years ago

Even the most expensive MIQ places are incredibly cheap to the average millionaire, NZ$5520 for 14 days for a single adult, which gets cheaper per person when sharing [1]. There are also huge outstanding bills (over NZ$13M) from people that have been through MIQ and haven't paid [2]. Some of the hotels in the MIQ list could be a lot better than others [3]. The solution is to make these investor visa categories pay a lot more - something like 10x - to fund the others who can't pay, but give them priority to the best rooms.

[1] https://www.miq.govt.nz/being-in-managed-isolation/charges-f...

[2] https://www.miq.govt.nz/about/media-centre/common-topics-for...

[3] https://www.miq.govt.nz/being-in-managed-isolation/isolation...

yardstick8• 5 years ago

Isn’t the real solution to disband MIQ? 90% eligible double vaccinated (95% eligible single dose).

How long should MIQ exist for?

Who should be responsible for paying MIQ dues?

I disagree that the traveler should be responsible anymore due to the high vaccination levels. The NZ govt, if it wishes to continue denying kiwis freedom of movement to return home to NZ (or travel to other countries they are citizens of) should shoulder the burden. Or a tax on the eligible-but-unvaccinated… after all, the traveler is having to quarantine to “protect” others, not themselves.

jimworm2• 5 years ago

If they had put in these proposed charges from the start, it would protect the NZ government from the criticism they're facing.

Ending MIQ is inevitable but it's a one-way decision. Once the virus takes hold there's no going back, even if you take quarantine and isolation to China levels. Nobody likes a lockdown. My opinion is that the right time is when the globally dominant variant is a fast-spreading one with a proven hospitalisation rate post-wave that is lower than what NZ could cope with, given the vaccination rate. Omicron could be a candidate but its wave is still spreading, so it's too early to tell.

As for MIQ dues, the government and therefore the people bear its cost. NZ$13 million isn't a trivial sum, but it isn't huge either, so while any scheme to reduce the burden would be welcome, a plan with a huge potential cost such as ending MIQ is a bit too much risk, especially with Omicron data coming soon on the horizon.

Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

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