Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

https://www.brown.edu/academics/physics/news/2021/11/brown-physics-student-manfred-steiner-earns-phd-age-89

by adharmad • 5 years ago

811 301 5 years ago

zadwang• 5 years ago

This is so inspiring. I am a professor and an engineer. But still I think about physics and still hope to be a physicist.

tombert7• 5 years ago

This is really cool. I'm 30 right now, and only just recently finished my bachelors and have been looking to get a PhD, but it's really hard to find a program that will let you work full time while doing it. It doesn't help that a part of me does sort of feel "too old" to do this sometimes. The PhD system in the US is really tailored around the assumption that you haven't entered the corporate world yet.

Anyway, it's really inspiring that someone almost three times my age pushed himself through the program. I guess it's important to remember that you really shouldn't give up on your dreams.

azhenley• 5 years ago

Professor here.

You definitely aren’t too old, but I would never take on a PhD student that wants to continue working elsewhere. A PhD is a full-time job. It took me 6.5 years and was hard enough with very little outside distractions.

soheil8• 5 years ago

Even if the work is related to the research?

tombert7• 5 years ago

You definitely aren’t too old

By "old" I didn't mean actual biological age exactly. I guess the more appropriate word would be something more like "settled". As it stands, I have a mortgage and whatnot to take care of, it's not really realistic for me to quit my job and focus full-time on a PhD for the next 5-6 years.

but I would never take on a PhD student that wants to continue working elsewhere

That seems to be the consensus in the US for the most part. Ironically, it's actually easier for a working American to get a distance-learning PhD from a British university than it is to get a local PhD in person in the states.

Right now I'm in the process of trying to get into University of York's distance part-time PhD, while remaining in NY. It's a long shot but it's basically my only option.

tobmlt• 5 years ago

Experiences vary. I was just at the point of qualifying exams when a full time job op came up in a tightly related field. They (profs and managers all) understood, my new co-workers mostly being phds themselves, and I hired on at 32 hrs a week for full time - health insurance etc, and dropped my dicey gov research funding. I loved every second of working mon-thurs, phd by,… every other spare second. But I could live on chewing gum, beers, and ideas at that age, I guess. I also took about 6 years all up. God it was fun when it was fun.

fsloth• 5 years ago

That sounds really weird to a european. A manager at my job in his 50's I know is doing is PhD studies along side his quite demanding workload. To my knowledge as he described the process it was no problem to the department to work on his courses and thesis "only part time". This is CS so domains may differ.

renewiltord• 5 years ago

Interesting. My dad is an MD PhD and he got the PhD while being a full time trauma surgeon in his forties. I think perhaps this is like all the other things people have told me are impossible: if I (or all the people like me) want to, we’d find it easy.

onion2k• 5 years ago

A PhD is a full-time job.

That should mean it's a 40 hour a week commitment, not that it's the only thing you do for half a decade or more.

CalRobert2• 5 years ago

Why should someone give up several years of income for a PhD?

Zababa4• 5 years ago

A PhD is a full-time job. It took me 6.5 years and was hard enough with very little outside distractions.

Interesting, in France in computer science, PhDs are often made while working part time on something related to the PhD.

barrkel2• 5 years ago

This is a similar attitude that you sometimes still see in employers with pregnant employees.

Your total justification seems to be that because it was hard for you, it will be hard for others too.

Fwiw my partner got her PhD part-time while working for the university as a researcher and consultant, actively authoring and publishing papers. It took her many years, but mostly it was finishing that was tough.

lixtra• 5 years ago

In many places of the world PhD candidates officially work 50% and more as teaching assistants, system admins or other vaguely related jobs. I see little scientific downside to work part time in a well paid related job instead.

JofArnold• 5 years ago

My partner took 10 years doing her PhD thesis part time. It was very hard for us both - especially close to the end. I'm 100% with you on this.

dagw• 5 years ago

I would never take on a PhD student that wants to continue working elsewhere

We have several people at the company I work (in Sweden) doing their PhD part time. The company gets 'free' research in an area relevant to them and the university gets connections to industry and their research field tested on real world projects. Both se it as a win-win. This sort of arrangement seems quite common in Sweden I know several people who got their PhD this way.

imutemyteam• 5 years ago

what kind of field?

I have helped make "theses" for people in "banking"/"management" and those require no work.

aidenn0• 5 years ago

My dad did his PhD while working full-time. He had previously been working 70 hour weeks at a startup and switched to a 9-5 job with an NGO and used the extra 30 hours a week of time to work on his PhD, so it is doable.

fortran77• 5 years ago

He already had an MD and a Ph.D. in biochemestry....

fouc• 5 years ago

To me, 18-30 or even 18-35 is practically "young adult" these days.

baby2• 5 years ago

Try France, it’s very common to do a PhD inside of a company.

skeeter20203• 5 years ago

As stated above European PhD are not typically the same as North American PhDs. I've never seen a respected program here that allows for part-time let alone while holding down a full-time job.

qxfys2• 5 years ago

A fellow PhD student here.

Come to Sweden (or, rather, Nordic countries in general). There are a lot of opportunities as an industrial PhD student. There are at least 3 out of 10 PhD students in my group doing research while still working in the industry. Usually, the deal is 80% PhD and 20% industry, but I know someone doing 50:50.

boublepop• 5 years ago

You don’t even need an industrial PhD. In Denmark at least, a PhD study is a paid position, essentially just a job that runs 3 years and results in handing in a PhD dissertation. It pays less than what you get in the industry, but very decently, so no need to balance multiple jobs, just focus on your research.

The Industrial PhD pays the same here, so that’s mostly a position you would take if you specifically want to collaborate with a company on some research project, not something you do because of income considerations.

zmb_2• 5 years ago

I would add a word of warning here. In the multiple research groups that I've worked in, the completion rate for industrial PhD students has been way less than 50%.

The industry part (whether 20% or 50%) easily ends up being close to 100% in practice. And many industrial PhD positions only last a few years, after which you get a normal full-time position and are expected to finish the PhD on your free time. Realistically, this makes it practically impossible to conduct the kind of research that you need to get a PhD from top programs.

eatYourFood• 5 years ago

York University (UK) will let you do a part time distance PhD in computer science: https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/postgraduate/research-degrees/phd/...

qwerty456127• 5 years ago

AFAIK at least on some European countries, especially in the east this is not so and used to be almost the opposite in the past. People are expected to upgrade from an engineer (~master) to a doctor (or a candidate of sciences first in some post-soviet countries) in parallel with their work as they gain real-life expertise and age. And in general I think it always is a great idea to study abroad (needless to say European universities are generally cheaper and easier to get in). So I think I would probably consider an European university if I were you.

chmod775• 5 years ago

I'm 30 right now, and only just recently finished my bachelors and have been looking to get a PhD, but it's really hard to find a program that will let you work full time while doing it.

I did a similar thing during my bachelor: working close to full time. I was essentially busy 14 hours a day, seven days a week. I was burned out within a year and switched to 20 hour weeks. Looking back I suspect that I suffered from somewhat severe lasting consequences for at least another two years and I don't think I've been quite the same person since.

Be mindful of what you're doing. Your brain and body need downtime at some point.

bumby6• 5 years ago

I know there are people pooh-pooh'ing the idea of pursuing a PhD while still working, but I think that's because they're just working from inflexible mental models. It can definitely be done, but you may have to think a bit outside traditional routes (which is seems like you're already doing). I started my program at an older age than you, so it can be done.

One option is to look for a full-time job that does research but is also affiliated with a university. Think national laboratories or government positions. If you're smart about it, you may be able to make your full-time work count towards your thesis. Many of these affiliations also offer free/reduced tuition and you'll almost certainly be paid more than if you were a PhD student working for a university. Some will even pay your normal salary and allow you to take a year or more off to focus on school. The real difficulty is working a schedule that let's you take courses, but I suspect this is easier now with the amount of remote learning available. I'd also say to stay away from advisors who think there's only one way to skin this cat :-). It was my experience that they don't work as well with non-traditional students.

To echo what was said elsewhere, advisors/programs that mandate a certain time commitment may be looking to burden you with ancillary duties that don't fit well with a non-traditional approach. Some programs would not admit me unless I was willing teach a certain number of classes, even though I was self funded through my employer. Some tried to force me into a resident status for the same reasons; there was an expectation of working on campus as a means of paying for my keep. I attribute most of these attitude's as a lazy way of thinking where they apply the same template to every student, but I think you can find an alternate path if you're willing to be a bit creative/resilient/persistent.

Best of luck to you.

pge• 5 years ago

When I worked at a DoD lab in the 90s, there were PhD students that were essentially employees. Their thesis work was directly tied to the lab’s work, and they were at the lab every day. I do not known the compensation arrangement, but it certainly appeared that they were paid as full-time employees (and may have been employed there before entering the PhD program). May be worth looking into something like that

liveoneggs• 5 years ago

this is because PhD students are expected to be indentured servants to the tenured professors for, at least, five years

throwaway6734• 5 years ago

It's going to be incredibly difficult to do real research while working full time. Have you considered pursuing a research based master's first?

snake422• 5 years ago

Where I work allows full-time employees to get their PHD and also gives some paid time to write your thesis. You can also propose research projects that align with your thesis topic.

Edit: Also tuition is free.

https://careers.gtri.gatech.edu/en-us/listing/

jrumbut2• 5 years ago

Wow I thought my employer (Massachusetts) had been generous just allowing it and paying for it, but time to write your thesis?

That's a great opportunity and I hope someone goes for it.

jrumbut2• 5 years ago

I'm (counts on fingers) 33 now and am a few years into doing exactly what you're thinking of. I'm working full time and am probably going to finish within the next year and a half.

My advice is to look at advisors who have a record of doing what you want to do or placing people where you want to go at schools that are a little bit down the rankings from the best possible place you could get into.

My email is in my bio if you want to talk about it.

jay3ss• 5 years ago

I know of one person who worked part time in industry while obtaining a PhD (also part time) from a major university in the southern California region and another who is currently doing the same at a different major university in the same region. Both people were working for a very large, Fortune 200 company. At the time they were in their mid 20s but I was offered a similar path (I'm in my 30s), but I've since left the company

whatsakandr• 5 years ago

JHU has a "Doctrate of Engineering" program where you work full time. But you have to convince your employer to be able to work full time on a particular problem.

SNosTrAnDbLe• 5 years ago

I am so jealous. I always wanted to do a PhD and was even accepted to a good program. Ended up not going as I could not gather up the courage to leave my job behind. I sincerely hope the experience getting the physics doctorate was all that he had imagined!

option• 5 years ago

I have phd in comp science and I plan on getting phd and doing research in astrophysics in my retirement

soheil8• 5 years ago

Computational physics might be a nice intersection.

sriram_malhar• 5 years ago

What an incredible story. He is my pole star.

silisili5• 5 years ago

This gives me hope. I'm not even half his age, but already worry about my brain going. When I was 17 I could do basic calculus in my head. Today I struggle to carry numbers in long addition problems.

It already has me thinking about my career and future - it certainly is downhill from here.

Then something like this happens and just makes me feel like a big baby. Hats off Mr Steiner.

selectodude2• 5 years ago

I went back to school with the same fears. It comes back to you.

silisili5• 5 years ago

Genuinely, thanks for sharing. I always want to go back, but fear I'll embarrass myself. Or at least realize my age is catching up eith me.

Out of curiosity, what did you go back for, and how did it go?

odyssey7• 5 years ago

Don’t assume this is age. It could be a health condition beginning to manifest. Inflammation, vitamin deficiency leading to something bad, etc. Brain fog is a common symptom of many possible issues that may just be taking root. I would see a doctor and make sure I fixed any such issue I could.

silisili5• 5 years ago

Thanks. Would love to have such a solution, but generally, doctor visits are normal.

One giant difference I noticed is my speech. When I was younger I spoke very, very quickly, to the point it was off-putting to some folks. I've always thought people who speak quickly have a fast working brain, so to speak.

Today I speak much more slowly and with more deliberation. Not good or bad, just different. Unfortunately I also find myself searching for a word much more often.

the_only_law3• 5 years ago

My worry is that is a more permanent health change due to bad habits.

oneepic• 5 years ago

"could be." It could also be _completely normal_ losing one's ability over time by not practicing, and one could get it back by just... doing more practice.

I'm in my mid-20's and I can't do mental math as well as I used to. Why? I don't spend as much time on it now, as I did when I was in school some years ago.

micromacrofoot• 5 years ago

isn’t this likely just a matter of practice? at 17 I spent hours a week studying calculus so it was easy… then I stopped using it for 20 years and it’s very difficult.

I feel like I’d get good at calculus or anything by dedicating similar amounts of dedicated study time

boomboomsubban• 5 years ago

As I assume you know how to do it, carrying numbers in long addition is a short term memory thing. I bet you were roughly as bad at it when you were 17 as you are now. Doing basic calculus in your head is way easier, it's simple multiplication.

soheil8• 5 years ago

I did a masters in physics when I was 24 and thought not getting paid a meaningful sum of money was incredibly frustrating. If my two remaining brain cells still function at 84 I'll certainly take on a PhD program.

boberoni• 5 years ago

As a university student in my last year of undergrad, I've been tempted to go work as a software engineer, even though I'm interested in doing research. The opportunity cost just seems too large to give up. Working as a SWE will allow me to earn a massive income in my 20s, during which I have few defendants and a lot of leisure time. While many of my peers are planning to do graduate school right away, I feel like my quality of life would simply be better by going to work in industry right now.

With that said, I still love learning and diving deeply into topics like math and the history of science. I hope that I can one day retire off my savings as a SWE and return to graduate school (maybe in my late 30s or 40s). Has anyone done this before? Is there a stigma against graduate students (both Masters and PhD) who are not in their 20s?

Bobylonian2• 5 years ago

The issue with software developers is that in some places there was no requirement to finish uni to work. Though, I would advise to finish studies asap, as later you won't have that much energy to share among work, relations, family, health and studies.

I am planning to finish my course after a very long gap in my 40s. Not sure if I need to, but for the sake of finalizing it, so it does not bother me anymore. The long gap seems to bother my university at my home country more than it should bother me and they have still the same irritating procedures in place that I do not like... but why should others care about how you spend YOUR money and time?

ghaff3• 5 years ago

Be aware that the meme that any developer with a pulse can make so much money they can retire in their 30s plays out very rarely. (ADDED: And if you're in that top tiny percent of success, will you really just drop out?) That said, you'll almost certainly make more money as an SWE than in academia.

I do know someone who got a PhD in their early 40s or so in a pause from tech and is back in tech. I gather they thought it "OK" but basically are back doing the same thing in industry as before.

steve_adams_86• 5 years ago

Yeah, this is important to consider. The barrier to entry is lower than ever, but truly excelling in software development is still non-trivial.

evancharles• 5 years ago

Entering the working world does not mean you have to give up diving deeply into new topics!

jeffe• 5 years ago

Why do you associate learning and diving deeply into topics exclusively with research? A phd program will only require you to dive deeply into your topic of research. You can get very far in many fields by reading through relevant texts and sci-hub papers.

In addition, even though their is a dearth of theoretical experience in industry, at FAANGs and similar you will find opportunities to learn a lot in areas such as systems design, networking, and machine learning from senior/principal engineers who are as savvy as professors, albeit with a practical lean.

Even the hands on aspect of a phd can be done on your own time with a little know how and income, see applied science[0] on youtube. Full time engineer who often tinkers and replicates scientific publications in his garage in his free time.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/c/AppliedScience/videos

parhamn• 5 years ago

This made me wonder (not that it matters, just curious): what are the biggest scientific discoveries made by older folks?

Bobylonian2• 5 years ago

In modern days - most of them. It takes years and years to get to scientific breakthrough discoveries.

1vuio0pswjnm7• 5 years ago

The title should really be "Earns Second PhD at 89"

This is not one of those stories about someone who "always dreamed of earning a PhD". This is an MD who already had a PhD in Biochemistry from MIT.

anaganisk• 5 years ago

I guess the goal of titles is make us click, not to give us a TLDR.

MattSteelblade• 5 years ago

I think it was his third doctoral degree.

vipa123• 5 years ago

More like "Retired Ivy League Biochemistry Professor earns second PhD at 89"

philzook• 5 years ago

Congratulations Manfred!

carrolldunham2• 5 years ago

A PhD is research training. Is he doing to do research now, or is this just, like everyone seems to be treating it - a big trophy? Does anyone ever stop to question their credentialist mindset? I heard a character in a video game say indignantly "Excuse me, I have a PhD", and I thought, well, that's not realistic dialog because a PhDs is something you have done, not something that you 'have'. But then people here are treating it like attainment of literally a 'qualification' is an end goal in itself.

iflp• 5 years ago

Steiner is not prepared to rest on his laurels. He is currently reworking part of his dissertation for publication and plans to continue his theoretical physics work.

It definitely helps that he has a lifetime of research experience (in another field).

eyeundersand2• 5 years ago

I don't see what's wrong with saying "I have a PhD". It's equivalent to what (I think) you're saying: "I have a few qualifications (pertaining to research)".

yuuu• 5 years ago

Well, it's annoying and usually arrogant. Just like people who put Ph.D. in their LinkedIn or Twitter names. I don't care that you have a Ph.D., and if you flaunt it, I'll think you're dumber than someone with a bachelor's degree.

wheelinsupial2• 5 years ago

The title is more accurately described as “Former Brown Professor of Medicine Returns to Brown to earn his Third Doctorate“

He had an MD, received a PhD from MIT, then went on to have a career as a researcher at Brown before taking up physics undergrad classes, and then continuing on to grad school.

He is quoted in the article as saying he will continue to work on physics research.

carrolldunham2• 5 years ago

I was commenting on the responses though, of "I'm so inspired". People are treating it as if the person has pulled off deathbed salvation, thankfully earning access to the eternal status of "PhD haver" in time.

jzer0cool2• 5 years ago

What is PhD research training? Are there any good indicators you might be a good researcher, without yet a full background in the discipline? What what be some of those qualities needed and sought for takin in my a professor. For example, say you just have an undergraduate degree in CS, what might be some ways to show you would be a good candidate without yet having written any publications.

PaulDavisThe1st• 5 years ago

I started a PhD in computational molecular biology. Dropped out after year and focused on software. Some years later, I applied to grad school for a CS PhD but was not accepted. The following year, I got a job in the CS department I had been rejected from, spent 4+ years there before leaving to help start a certain e-commerce company, then left that after a year to raise my daughter. Eventually back to software, and feel proud and happy about the libre software I've given to the world over the last 21 years of that part of my life.

You might think after all that that a PhD would be an irrelevance. But actually, I do still sometimes dream of being able to follow that process, of drilling down and into a problem much more deeply than any other context would allow, of having my ideas constantly challenged by smart people, and of eventually (one hopes) coming to some sort of conclusion.

I have many friends with CS PhD's, and to be honest, I don't think my life has been impaired in any way by the absence of the PhD, and maybe even enhanced. Still, it would be nice. And apparently, I've still got 30 years (at least) to get it done!

coldcode• 5 years ago

A college friend of mine intends to pursue a PhD in Chemistry once he retires (soon). I was accepted back in the early 80's but instead spent 4 decades doing programming. I decided to do art instead of going back to school. Sometimes I wish I had actually gotten the doctorate, but not enough to start over again.

FpUser• 5 years ago

What a sharp mind. Even though he was already recognized scientist the capacity to continue at this so advanced age is nothing but very respectable.

cg30e3• 5 years ago

This is very inspiring. I too am young and been in the work force for several years, but unlike the other comments in this thread I am not settled down as an older student returning to school.

I am willing to give up a high paying salary to return back to school as a PhD student and I am not tied down with a mortgage or anything else.

I find mathematics simply too interesting to not learn at the highest level. Working in industry will simply not teach me the material I want to learn. I’m considering going back for either a PhD in Math or a math heavy PhD in CS. I read math textbooks for fun and worked with tutors to ensure my proofs are done correctly. I can do this for hours on end without external motivation. I taught myself a lot of math and can see myself doing this as a career. I want to do research.

Most people my age say the same things in the comment sections in this thread (tied down to a mortgage, make too much money to return). I’m glad generalizations like these don’t apply to me and can’t wait to get back to school

axiom92• 5 years ago

PhD or not is one of those questions where if you find yourself asking it repeatedly (especially to others around you), the answer is no.

You are exactly the kind of person who should be doing it!

Good luck!

cg30e3• 5 years ago

Thank you!

BeetleB5• 5 years ago

Some cautionary comments:

Often your advisor in grad school will force you to focus on what they want rather than what you want to learn. This is less likely in a math department, but more likely in a CS one. As with everything, it all depends on your advisor.

The PhD is replete with hoops you have to take that will be orthogonal to your goal of learning (e.g. spending a lot of your time doing HW on the professor's pet topic when taking a course). Someone I know who retired somewhat young (early 50's) enrolled in a PhD program because he loves to learn. He dropped out within two years because he found it fairly inefficient in learning the topics he wanted to learn about (he had a career on mathematical topics and can handle the math). Unlike younger folks, time is precious for him, and being efficient is more important to someone in their 50s than in their 20s.

If all you care about is learning and not the actual piece of paper in the end, it may be more efficient to get a less demanding job and use your spare time studying what you want to study. Do it right and you'll make more money than you would as a student, and potentially learn more than you would in grad school.

Finally, PhD is about research. Yes, you will learn a lot, but learning is not the goal. A lot of people drop out because they realized they loved learning much more than doing research, which will involve large chunks of your time being unproductive. If you plan to do a PhD, you will have to draw a line at some point and say "OK, those 10-100 things there that really interest me? I have to drop them forever so I can do research." If you opt not to do research, you can learn a lot more.

sulam• 5 years ago

While everything else you say may be true, I take issue with efficiency being a function of age. Fundamentally you have no idea how many years you will get. Be efficient at all ages, and live like it might (and might not!) be your last year, regardless. Personally I’ve had close brushes with death a couple times in my life, and the dice roll could easily have gone the other way. I’m sure I’m far from alone in this.

zd123• 5 years ago

Do you mind sharing the books you found helpful to self learn math with a tutor?

I am looking to also go on a self study mathematical journey

cg30e3• 5 years ago

For sure. I'll list some books for introduction to proofs, abstract algebra, real analysis, topology and category theory. These are not comprehensive, just listing books off the top of my head. I'll definitely be leaving off personal favorites other people have. You'll like some better than others. Some of these are beginner books and some are more advanced. A good tutor can help you get through the more advanced books. I tried to list the most beginner friendly book first in the list under each subject. Then the more advanced books later in the list.

Introduction to Proofs:

Just pick one of these that speaks to you the most. All three are good.

Discrete Mathematics with Applications - Epp

Discrete Mathematics and Its Applications - Rosen

Mathematical Proofs: A Transition to Advanced Mathematics - Chartrand, et al.

Abstract Algebra:

How to Think about Abstract Algebra - Alcock

Abstract Algebra - Pinter

Abstract Algebra: A First Course - Saracino

Algebra - Artin

Abstract Algebra - Herstein

Abstract Algebra - Dummit & Foote

Linear Algebra:

Maybe an engineering based book first if you haven't seen linear algebra in a while (e.g. Strang or Linear Algebra: Step by Step by Singh).

Then:

Linear Algebra - Friedberg, et al

Linear Algebra Done Right - Axler

Linear Algebra - Hoffman & Kunze

Real Analysis:

How to Think About Analysis - Alcock

Understanding Analysis - Abbott

Tao's Analysis text

Principles of Mathematical Analysis - Rudin

Topology:

Topology - Munkres

Topology A Categorical Approach - Tai-Danae Bradley, Tyler Bryson, and John Terilla

Check out this list:

http://pi.math.cornell.edu/~hatcher/Other/topologybooks.pdf for others.

Category theory:

Categories and Toposes: Visualized and Explained - Southwell

Conceptual Mathematics: A First Introduction to Categories - Lawvere

Category Theory for Programmers - Milewski (if you like functional programming)

Programming with Categories - Fong, Milewski, Spivak (if you like functional programming)

Category Theory in Context - Riehl

There are a few others by Spivak which you may like.

If you don't know category theory whatsoever then I like Southwell the best (pair them up with his youtube videos). Eugenia Cheng also has a nice set of lecture videos.

If you already know math pretty well, then Riehl is a favorite.

Hope that helps!

challenger-derp• 5 years ago

Where can people who are interested in learning math find math tutors? I'd like to engage a math tutor though i don't think I would pursue a math PhD :)

silisili5• 5 years ago

Seriously? Brown was removed from the title, because one person took it in bad faith?

Would Harvard have been removed from a title?

batman-farts• 5 years ago

Yeah, when I saw Brown and PhD in the same headline, I assumed Brown University.

throwamon• 5 years ago

Just wait until Elon Musk founds Texas Institute of Technology and Science.

https://nitter.net/elonmusk/status/1453954994546229253

wanderingmind3• 5 years ago

For all the fantasy here, let me remind you doing a PhD at an early age is one of the worst things you can do to your financial security (CS Ph.D being a major exception). It does not teach any employable skills, leads to a very high level of depression/anxiety compared to regular jobs and creates a huge opportunity cost where you miss out saving money early that has true compounding capability. The 2019 Nature survey has more information

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03459-7

throw63738• 5 years ago

PhD in information science or mathematics can be good investment. But it is bad idea to star career in academia.

amitport• 5 years ago

It depends what you want to do and what you're good at.

For example, if you're good in the academy thing and manage to get papers into top tier companies you will finish your PhD faster if you won't take breaks in the industry. If your PhD is on desrible topic (e.g., ML) there are plenty of academy and industry jobs waiting for you, regardless of your work experience.

IneficientPgons3• 5 years ago

Mathematics is closer to the least in-demand humanities than CS in terms of investment quality... actually, it's probably one of the worse fields in which to do a phd. History or Philosophy might be better... at least there you're free to live a life of the mind. If you sign up for a Math PhD in the USA, you're almost certainly just signing up to be a university College Algebra/Calc I teacher for like 1/2-1/3rd of what middle school teachers are making.

Seriously. Don't get a PhD in Math. It's a miserable field.

BeetleB5• 5 years ago

Previous discussion regarding your comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28679234

(I'd repeat what I said before, but dang wasn't happy the last time I copy/pasted).

shoyer• 5 years ago

A PhD is certainly not for everyone (or even most), but it's rather unfair to say that it does not teach any employable skills. Even PhDs who go on to work in completely unrelated fields learn how to make progress on poorly defined problems and to advance the frontier of human knowledge. And a PhD is also of course a hard prerequisite for career in academia or research.

As for that survey of PhD students, I suspect you would get similarly dismal reviews of parenthood from parents of 0-5 year old children -- but of course that doesn't mean that nobody should have children! A better survey would ask PhD students how they feel about the experience well after they are done with it.

endymi0n• 5 years ago

Depends on your definition of „better“. Since decisions are always emotionally made and rationalized after the fact, this approach will fall victim to significant amounts of survivorship and post-purchase bias.

Life doesn’t have an A/B Test and time tends to make things golden in retrospect — so it‘s hard to compare with what you could have done instead with your only truly non-renewable resource.

I would at least not recommend making a PhD if you don‘t love academia itself.

ketzo• 5 years ago

I don’t know. It seems quite different than parenthood.

Are these people complaining about something that’s hard-but-worth-it? Or are they regretful participants in a genuinely broken system? Many signs seem to point to the latter.

Academia has a very small chance of, specifically, anything more than an extremely mediocre income. This, despite the fact that (generally speaking) some who would enter into, let alone complete, a Ph.D program would already tend towards the right said of the bell curve in that regard.

These programs often make many, if not most, people who join them miserable for years at the cost of a medium-to-large cut in lifetime earnings, all for a quickly shrinking chance at stability.

I know money isn’t everything in this life; truly, I do. I know that the pursuit of academic knowledge is noble, and in some ways a separate and valid good in its own right. It’s still a fucked-up system with serious and numerous flaws.

barry-cotter2• 5 years ago

As for that survey of PhD students, I suspect you would get similarly dismal reviews of parenthood from parents of 0-5 year old children

No, you wouldn't. Parenthood of small children has many negatives but it doesn't lead to depression in approaching 50% of cases.

randomdata• 5 years ago

but of course that doesn't mean that nobody should have children!

Of course. For some short-term pain, the child's labour capability provides a clear economic benefit.

What are you going to get out of your short-term PhD pain? At best a job, where you are still limited by your individual labour output. Not exactly a scalable model.

foldr• 5 years ago

it's rather unfair to say that it does not teach any employable skills. Even PhDs who go on to work in completely unrelated fields learn how to make progress on poorly defined problems and to advance the frontier of human knowledge.

Depressingly, about 0.001% of employers care about these skills.

brailsafe• 5 years ago

huge opportunity cost where you miss out saving money early

Either direction only works out if a bunch of things line up in your favour over a relatively long period of time. If you choose the academic path and succeed, you end up with little money and a higher credential. If you choose not the academic path, you end up with potentially more money. However, you might fail at one or both paths, so it doesn't really matter at all, and you're better off trying both if you're not so confident. I initially chose the employment path, but as that's failed miserably over that 10 years, I have no money at all to show for it, and I've dipped into school from time to time and generally like it for the most part. If I traded that block of time for just academics or just employment, I'd probably be equally depressed and anxious, just for different reasons.

andensande• 5 years ago

I went into a PhD programme in Australia straight out of my undergrad degree, and while it certainly wasn't great for my financial security, I'm glad I did it. Anecdotes don't make data, of course, but this is background to what follows.

I had a really easy time getting admitted to the program, was fully funded and received a scholarship. I had a lot of freedom in terms of topic and got to travel every year of the PhD, so I think the actual experience was much better than it sounds like other people have it in the linked study.

What I did see, however, was a university system that was pushing through students at what I would consider an irresponsible pace. This was especially the case with foreign students, who were fodder for the supervisors' career aspirations (the supervisors having to see through a number of students to completion per five-year period to advance). The quality of the resultant PhDs was shockingly low in some cases, but there is no incentive for good theses, just complete theses. And for a university system like Australia's, which is to a large degree reliant on exporting education, these incentives are probably far worse now than they were when I was in the midst of it in 2015-16.

The other major problem is that a PhD is, essentially, an apprenticeship for academia. In Australia, we have a apprenticeships in trades (like electrical, plumbing, etc.) in which you learn 'on the job'; you're paid poorly, you do the menial jobs, but at the end you have a career. A PhD is like that: you do almost everything a lecturer or professor does, except -- and here's the catch -- there's no job prospects whatsoever at the end. And it seems like it'll get worse. Imagine working for four years on something that you love, that you're passionate about, and that you think will change the world intellectually, to only end up being some cheap labour to get publications for others more advanced in their careers -- and then you're done, and shown the door.

I was incredibly lucky in that I got a two-year postdoc, but I had to change fields (which I wanted to do), and I ended up paying for my own post-doc doing contracted research through the university. My heart wasn't in being an academic, and the applied side appealed to me a lot -- but I imagine this would be intolerable for many candidates.

These are factors I tell anyone who is thinking of a PhD. It is a highly-specific apprenticeship for a single industry that is, in Australia, collapsing substantially as the result of its own mismanagement, poor education funding policy at the Federal level, and (of course) the pandemic. It's no wonder that PhD candidates are so discontent, in my view -- despite my having had a wonderful and very fulfilling time.

lokimedes• 5 years ago

I realize we’re mostly US-centric here on HN, but I have greatly benefited from my Physics Ph.D. Obtained in Denmark, while being paid $55000 a year throughout the study (standard rate for PhD students in DK). In Denmark most people will hold a state sponsored Masters degree, so it has served me well in the private industry as a differentiator. Combined with an MBA (yes, I hear the snuffing sounds guys) it has been the perfect package for senior engineering management.

bitwize3• 5 years ago

A Ph.D. is pretty much a license to do science in many fields, such as biochemistry. Unlike CS, you just don't get to do the cutting edge work without one -- you will remain forever a lab tech unless and until you get your doctorate.

wanderingmind3• 5 years ago

maybe that is a good enough reason to avoid those fields and focus on fields that actually value your ideas and implementations rather than a credential.

ekianjo• 5 years ago

For all the fantasy here, let me remind you doing a PhD at an early age

A PhD is mainly if you have an interest (or could have an interest) in an Academic career.

wanderingmind3• 5 years ago

Most PhDs start because of an interest in academia and yet more than 90% of them never make it to academia.

localhost• 5 years ago

I was fortunate enough to pivot from Chemistry PhD (which I completed) to a career at Microsoft that has provided me with more than enough financial security to fund an adventure like this when I do decide to retire. While I may not be typical, I do use skills (though not specific knowledge) from my PhD all the time in my day job - mostly around communications both written and oral. The act of writing my thesis and papers really taught me the value of being able to communicate technical information clearly to a technical audience.

I think that the structure of pursuing research would be a great way to avoid losing a "sense of purpose" that I fear might await me when I do decide to retire. The tricky part of this is finding the right advisor and the right project in the right field.

jarenmf• 5 years ago

A PhD is a journey of self discovery. There's something uniquely fulfilling about being on the edge of human knowledge on one particular subject and pushing that edge a tiny bit. No one does a PhD for the money. Even if you don't get any skills from your PhD which I'm sure you will (data analytics, writing, etc...) you'll certainly gain a boost in self confidence and first hand experience in managing a research project.

yangcheng• 5 years ago

it's really depending on people. Dr Steiner already holds a phD and MD at early age. older life is a continuation of earlier life

gspr4• 5 years ago

But in return you might get to do amazing research and discover things that our species did not know before. That's worth something to those of us who don't view life as a monetary optimization game.

Sheesh, HN is depressing sometimes.

eric4smith• 5 years ago

Very inspiring story indeed. But the first question resonating in my mind is...

Why??

While what the student did is good. It serves as bad inspiration for too many people going to college these days just because they want to. And not because of a reason.

If the cost of education was low, then I would not be opposed to it. But we all know stories of people who say they are "going back to school" for very minimal benefits later.

So... at that age, we can see it as just an aspirational thing. But for younger people, it mostly (not all the time) sends the wrong message.

IneficientPgons3• 5 years ago

STEM PhDs in the US pay no tuition and receive a stipend of typically $30K+ as well as health insurance and sometimes housing benefits.

Honestly, "fuck it, do another Ph.D. in an adjacent field like math" is definitely in my "shit ran out of funds for ski trips because I retired too early and need some health insurance ASAP" quiver.

So... at that age, we can see it as just an aspirational thing. But for younger people, it mostly (not all the time) sends the wrong message.

Like 20-somethings doing startup shit, PhDs can be terrible life choices or wonderful life choices. Outcomes are anything but uniform. If I had gone industry out of undergrad I might be making $150K by now. Instead I'm making close to 10x that doing exactly what I would be doing if I were an unemployed bum following my passion, all thanks to my phd. Lucky, sure. So are startup folks.

aijeq• 5 years ago

30k

This is the pay at top tier universities with extremely exclusive entry criteria.

I was a former PhD student in CS. Washed out due to costs because I was self-funding. It was a local university and an R1 so not "bad" but also not ivy. I had absolutely no problem keeping up with class + research work while also working in industry as I have a lot of time on my hands and no family. I'm still a little sour about the whole thing because I had an incredible and flexible advisor. But costs are costs.

The average STEM PhD student at my university made 13k, up to 20k if you took on summer teaching duties. You did get classes covered, but health insurance came out of your stipend and you still had to cover ancillary fees (gym, technology, etc). So you walked, after taxes, with anywhere between 10 and 12k. They offered me an RA position with my PhD admission that paid approximately 20k. Obviously I could not take it and afford rent. Perhaps if they offered a free dorm and healthcare I could consider choking down 12-15k for 3-4 years to get the pay off in the end.

American PhD programs generally pay below poverty wages. Several PhD student colleagues of mine were on food stamps and lived with 1-3 other PhD students in the run down apartments adjacent to the university. It's abject suffering for the most part and direct-to-phd students often leave in their mid 30s burned out and 10 years behind other students in the workplace. I inquired with several universities about associate professor positions and even those have pretty insane post-doc requirements before being considered. You'll be 15+ years behind your cohort if you, god forbid, decide to go another 3 or so years in a slighty-above-poverty post doc position. At my university these paid around 40-45k, up to 60k for fairly exclusive positions. For what it's worth I make as much as the average industry CS PhD in a software engineering capacity after 10 years of service. I was pursuing it for pleasure and credentialing.

It is not practical, unfortunately, to pursue a PhD as an American unless you are incredibly wealthy or on a visa program. It is not surprising many PhD students are foreign born. No one intends to get rich with a PhD, but it seems even comfort is a far flung dream.

Supermancho• 5 years ago

The purpose of PHDs and the ultimate purpose of college is tied together. A PHD requires conducting a novel and heavily reviewed study to further human knowledge.

The esteem and accolades peppered throughout this discussion are incidental and transitory.

captainredbeard• 5 years ago

It serves as bad inspiration for too many people going to college these days just because they want to. And not because of a reason

Self-fulfillment is a reason.

almokhtar• 5 years ago

Absolutely gonna take it to the grave with him :D

kristian_io• 5 years ago

Audio version of this story is available here (10min): https://readtoo.me/article/88495a054f8e8f7b5098fad4b04a3fbf1...

yread• 5 years ago

I half expected it to say he started it at 23

8589934591• 5 years ago

I'm in my late 20s and my wife works on her own startup (non tech tangible product). I wonder if there are others who have their spouses working and how the marriage factored into their decision to pursue a CS PhD. I'm not from USA.

My primary concerns are her startup tanking, me being unavailable for her mental health and of course a steady income.

I sometimes wonder maybe I should pursue a CS PhD after settling down financially by late 40s.

np1810• 5 years ago

Such a motivating life he has created... Please read the complete article and you'll find a very important advice in the end from this extraordinary human... ;)

And "knowledge hunger" is real... :)

jzer0cool2• 5 years ago

"in (1+1) dimensions"

Why is the dimensions written in this way emphasizing +1

panzerklein• 5 years ago

One dimension of space and one dimension of time, probably

gspr4• 5 years ago

Likely one of the dimensions behaves differently.

happy-go-lucky• 5 years ago

" ... I wanted to do something that keeps my mind active. But it is a matter of whatever you want to do. If you have a dream, follow it. Sometimes that dream may never have been verbalized, it may be buried in the subconscious. It is important not to waste your older days. There is a lot of brainpower in older people and I think it can be of enormous benefit to younger generations. Older people have experience and many times history repeats itself.”

I see this as a way to protect one's health and sanity as one ages. Aging gracefully should be possible.

patrec• 5 years ago

Can anyone with a background in the area comment on how legit this is?

I have no trouble believing that a spry research professor in a quantitative field could get a PhD in another quantitative field at a fairly advanced age, especially if they can bring existing skills that are underused in their new domain, but it would be genuinely amazing if someone in his 80ies were to successfully

set to work on a very difficult problem [...] the theory that he was doing involves techniques that are incredibly advanced and challenging to master

in physics, a field were people are often considered over the hill past their 20ies, and an elite uni at that. The only reference to his work a quick google scholar search turned up is from 2012:

https://meetings.aps.org/Meeting/MAR12/Session/Z26.1

thomasfl• 5 years ago

The love Steiner shows for science is heartwarming. Research in physics, or even astro physics, is perhaps the ultimate adventure these days.

bambax• 5 years ago

My father earned a PhD in Political science (in France) when he was 70; his thesis was 500+ pages long. He retired early and spent all his time on it. It made him pretty happy.

He's now 89 and while he hasn't done any new research, he's still intellectually and physically very active.

Retirement is not the time to do nothing, it's the time to do what you really like. I can't wait.

agustif3• 5 years ago

‘My students never knew’: the lecturer who lived in a tent

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/oct/30/my-student...

I say fuck to those big name universities that pay peanuts to their most overexploited workers.

===

Edited: no absolutisms is better

Do only a PhD if you're sure you can afford it.

threatofrain• 5 years ago

For many places, at least a masters or phd is the credibility doorway to do interesting work. By choosing not to get these credentials, you are also choosing to greatly narrow your opportunity in those lines of work.

Being able to do the work is figuratively 30% of the battle, whereas having the opportunity to do it is the real challenge.

CalRobert2• 5 years ago

College is expensive enough, and professors (but hey we call them "lecturers" so we can treat them horribly) earn nothing, but what is often forgotten is that a few years out of work can cost half a million bucks (or, for some people, far more) in opportunity cost.

wesleywt• 5 years ago

It depends. In America yes. Elsewhere. Get one.

jinto36• 5 years ago

A PhD is pretty much the minimum to be able to get much of anywhere in biology. In that context it's "don't do a postdoc, you'll never get a tenured position anymore".

gspr4• 5 years ago

Ugh. I agree that the exploitative behavior of some big name universities is horrible, but I don't at all understand how you from this conclude that "academia is over", and in turn from that that people should avoid doing PhD.

Your comment is 10/10 HN.

agustif3• 5 years ago

Thanks. I do spend a lot of time here so...

And you're right, I made three totally disconnected points albeit on the same area at least! Have done much worst in the past. I am sorry if I offended you or didn't explain myself much further.

Why is academia over in my opinion you ask?

Well, for one it's an overly saturated space, most of the folks doing a PhD go on to have very good career prospect's (of course thanks to the PhD in part).

But which percentage do stay in academia? Why not everyone with good ideas? It seems to me, it's a system like any other rigged for the rich and connected, who can afford a degree+master+phd, I guess if your parents are supporting you through it...

About avoiding doing a PhD, you can just read from all the people who was paid poorly, but since they needed the credentials, they went with it anyway's... As it stands right now, and much like everything that capitalism touches, Academia has gone to shit in standards in a few centuries from being the way of sharing knowledge, to being another way to manipulate and disinform the public.

I guess I would change my prior absolute statement to a more specific one, do a PhD only if you can afford the opportunity cost of not doing it and doing else more productive (for yourself or bank account at least)

And maybe academia is not over, but it's certainly in need of a shake up, and sadly as someone much more smarter than me once said:

"Science advances one funeral at a time"

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principio_de_Planck

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publish_or_perish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cost_of_Knowledge

locallost• 5 years ago

Heh, my second attempt at a Bachelor's degree was at 27, and when I was done, a professor asked if I will also continue with the Master's degree at the same University. To that I said, no, I'm over 30 and too old :-).

State of mind is a very important thing.

pelasaco2• 5 years ago

I'm 40 now, since the pandemics started studying game development (BA), and talking with my colleagues via discord, I'm quite sure I'm the oldest one. On the bright side, I'm the one with the best notes, delivering always weeks before the deadline, despite the fact that I have a full time job and family. I think what the life taught me at best are time management and context switching. Love to learn and be productive. I'm looking forward to still be a student in the age of 90.

id• 5 years ago

despite the fact that I have a full time job and family

In another comment you wrote:

I dropped to 24 hours/week and have a much better life quality now, working 3 days per week.

Still remarkable, so congrats, but full time normally is considered to be 40 hours / week, 5 days per week.

pelasaco2• 5 years ago

yes, you are right. I dropped from $$ job, which allows me to work in something different (I do volunteer work with kids, afternoon). I wake up every day 6:30, and limit my studies to 1 hour early in the morning (coding, when I'm most productive) and 1 hour late in the night (reading through materials).

BlasDeLezo• 5 years ago

now go up for tenure

selimthegrim• 5 years ago

The topic is legitimate but Marston hasn’t done much CMT in 20 years, Witten is considered to have made most of the advances in bosonization in the 80s although there was a paper out of Riverside a few years ago I remember that looked interesting with Mike Mulligan

HeavyStorm• 5 years ago

Sometimes I get scared that I'm too old and will not accomplish my goald It's nice to see that I probably have much more time than I think.

zahma• 5 years ago

This resonates with me as someone going back to get an MD. I’m early thirties and a new father. Working through undergrad science classes is kicking my ass, so I’m really impressed that this guy’s brain was plastic enough to handle the rigors of theoretical physics. Inspirational on many levels!

vmception2• 5 years ago

That's because brain/synaptic plasticity in relation to learning was made up on the spot and simply repeated ever since. It's just been a convenient shared crutch to not learn new concepts after a certain age because the incentives are not strong enough for most people.

esond• 5 years ago

Is this true? I would love to read further on this. For one reason or another, I am experiencing some concern lately about my waning ability to learn new concepts as I age, or at least my perception of it. I would be chuffed to learn that it was all just in my head (so to speak).

timwaagh• 5 years ago

I don't see the point of this. He's not going to have a long career as a researcher so why dedicate resources trying to train him to become one? In my country typically being one year behind already counts strongly against you.

hilbert42• 5 years ago

He has to be an absolute inspiration to everyone.

What's more he's now 13 years older than the age at which Einstein died, so he's shown us that pursuing one's desires and goals at any age is a worthwhile venture.

I wish him well and hope he continues to get enjoyment from his new expertise in physics.

krosaen• 5 years ago

Wow and I thought I was taking a risk spending a few years transitioning into robotics in my late 30s :) Awesome to see this, would like to think we all could undertake huge learning challenges at any point in life, and we'll probably need to if we care to keep contributing at a high level.

the_only_law3• 5 years ago

I don’t even have a bachelors. I’ve been thinking about going back to school and pursing higher levels of education (research masters or PhD) twitch a mostly utilitarian fields and do industrial R&D work in a domain I’ve become interested in and my biggest worry is being “old” by the time I complete any graduate education (even though old in my case, would likely be mid-30s by the end if I start in the coming years).

I might get crucified for being so jaded and cynical, but completed a PhD as part of some lifelong dream seems a bit empty to me. I think it’s fair to call him a physicist, but I just personally wouldn’t feel the dream was realized. Now, at the end of his life, he’s achieved the bare minimum and I doubt he will be able to do much more in the field or see the field develop.

Loughla3• 5 years ago

How is completing a super advanced degree in a very specific field 'the bare minimum'?

I feel like taking high school physics would be the bare minimum. Or maybe even getting a bachelor's. But a PhD? That's not the pinnacle of a career, by any means, but it's 100% the pinnacle of an educational experience.

my biggest worry is being “old” by the time I complete any graduate education

There are 'old' students everywhere in college and graduate school. If you interact with any graduate students from not your home country, 99% of the time, they are much (read: a decade or two) older than the 'regular' student.

ryan933• 5 years ago

Wrong. Most foreign PHDs are in their early to mid twenties when they start

f6v• 5 years ago

In my field, doing a PhD at decent university means doing real-world scientific research. Despite widespread forced publication of mediocre results, I still see a PhD as a recognition of having “done science”.

MetaWhirledPeas• 5 years ago

Now, at the end of his life, he’s achieved the bare minimum and I doubt he will be able to do much more in the field or see the field develop.

I'm sure the fact that it would inspire others was not lost on him. Or perhaps he did it just so it would be done? There's enjoyment in the journey and the accomplishment.

javchz2• 5 years ago

I had the same worries as someone who with some luck will graduate in his 30s.

I went back to college after dropping out when I was in my early 20s. Someone told me "You're going to be X+4 years in 4 years anyway, why not try achieving that thing you want. Time will pass either way"

Surprise: Right now I enjoy college VS before when it felt like a chore I had to go because was the "right thing to do".

It's great to share a space with people who share the same interest in a topic of science/humanities as you do.

Being an old dude in college, allows you to be less worried about late-teenage problems like drama in relationships, in my case being hot-headed, dealing with parents' expectations, or the chronic stress from failing tests thinking it's the end of the world, etc.

Plus, being the "old dude" from the class, hasn't been a problem at all, people are respectful most of the time, and if you're friendly, they will even seek you for mentorship.

As long as you're not behaving like Chevy Chase from "Community", nobody will give much importance to your age.

Yeah, there is a lot of things that are just bureaucracy to create false gatekeeping that I don't like even now.

But from time to time, I find lectures about topics I didn't know existed... and I have that feeling of being a kid again, and finding something new from 0. And that's 100% worth it. So I get why the dude, would keep searching for a PhD even in his eldery years.

I am fortunate enough to live in a country where college it's free. But if it's too expensive, you could get a lot of the value from distance Coursera, and online courses/communities.

the_only_law3• 5 years ago

It’s not about being old in school, in fact I’m fairly sure I could make much more of it now then had I gone at 17-18.

It’s about being old when I finish. Losing the rest of my youth being out of place (funny enough I’ve always been the young guy among older people and school would just invert that, it’s not the biggest issue in the world, but it does become very isolating at times) and losing years of earning power on what feels like a gamble. Being the oldest candidate applying for a new job, etc.

et2o• 5 years ago

This is such a cool story. What a man. I wonder what his patients remember of him.

billfruit2• 5 years ago

I sometimes wonder, why there isn't a well defined pathway to get a PhD for work done through independent research.

sungam2• 5 years ago

This is possible at Cambridge and certain other universities for graduates of those universities:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Philosophy_by_public...

billfruit2• 5 years ago

Interesting. I wish more Universities will start to offer this method.

kevmo• 5 years ago

I've been planning to become a mathematician in my 70s for some time.

ericmcer• 5 years ago

It's always comforting to know that if you weren't good enough to achieve anything of note in your youth you can always earn accolades for being stubborn enough to do it in old age. I have some unreasonable rock climbing goals that seem less likely but more impressive as I age. Also a 42 year old man just became the light heavyweight UFC champ last weekend so I guess... Keep fighting.

musicale• 5 years ago

Some Ph.D. programs are long, but this is excessive!

husamia• 5 years ago

I am 39 right now. Someday I want to earn an MD but it's hard to leave my full time job.

Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

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