Gamification is bullshit

http://m.bogost.com/blog/gamification_is_bullshit.shtml

by asanwal • 15 years ago

189 63 15 years ago

m.bogost.com

wccrawford• 15 years ago

He harps on the people who get gamification wrong and totally neglects those who get it right.

People -do- care about pointless things like 'achievements' and such. I'm actually kind of ashamed that I care, but I -do- care. I am more likely to fully explore a site or product if there are external goals in play.

jameskilton• 15 years ago

Perhaps "gamification" is the wrong word. What people are trying to do with these kind of systems is to create incentives for using the product.

So maybe, instead of gamification, it's incentivization? Definitely a harder word to say and type out, but it's more indicative of what's going on and has less negative connotation.

vyrotek4• 15 years ago

The word is definitely not well received by everyone. Even the gamification platform companies (ours included) don't really like the word. It leaves too much to the imagination and carries a lot of baggage.

Another issue is that people think gamification is the new SEO. Gamification will not magically bring new users to your site. It's as you said, about incentivizing or engaging with your current users.

gapanalysis• 15 years ago

I don't mean to be simple but the best incentives for using a product are (a) it does what it promises to do and well, (b) the cost and benefits are commensurate, (c) it is more elegant or efficient or <name your quality metric> than its competition?

I don't need games or rewards or incentives to buy products that meet these criteria.

ethnomusicolog• 15 years ago

agree with you, you can't discard something useful ont the pretense that bad people use it. This post has some holier than thou undertone.

fluidcruft• 15 years ago

Maybe you're hung up on the word "bullshit"? I don't think he says it has anything to do with caring. I mean a bullshitter cares, too. If you yourself describe it as "pointless things", I don't see how you're disagreeing.

Alex3917• 15 years ago

I think this is generally true, but there are a few websites that do it very well. The way that Squidoo does points, items, quests, and levels is probably the best case study I've seen for a website.

Meai• 15 years ago

Humans do things for reasons. Which is true. So it's not bullshit.

q.e.d

phillmv2• 15 years ago

orly? http://i.imgur.com/ZVWxL.png

jergason• 15 years ago

What stylesheet are you using for HN? That looks great.

EAMiller• 15 years ago

Looks like Georgify: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ofjfdfaleomlfanfeh...

graupel• 15 years ago

I've got calls with two big gamification companies coming up and am under some pressure from marketing to get these features added to our sites (which have 20mm UV/monthly), I'm so torn about the whole idea.

vyrotek4• 15 years ago

I hope we're one of those calls ;) http://iactionable.com

knowtheory6• 15 years ago

"The wait is over; the turnkey gamification of Salesforce.com has arrived."

/me vomits.

What exactly does that mean to you?

Have you built a game that relies on salesforce as a user database?

knowtheory6• 15 years ago

[Edit: posted before i saw: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2864030 ]

Actually, thanks for giving us a concrete example.

The video you have posted here: http://iactionable.com/salesforce/

What this video has said to me is that you have found a new way for bean counters to track the behavior of employees through arbitrarily defined metrics, and make judgements about those employees.

Contests and competition to incentivize behavior are nothing new in the business world. What is new is the thin patena of presumed "fun" that "gamification" implies. Left unaddressed and unresolved are all of the problems and challenges involved in defining good metrics that correspond with business and employee success, or the social ramifications of competition.

tl;dr: this is just another way to track employee productivity.

mattgreenrocks• 15 years ago

In your experience, how do intrinsically motivated individuals feel about 'gamification?'

It seems like the concept fosters extrinsic motivation exclusively.

knowtheory6• 15 years ago

I vehemently object to the idea that you can add levels, achievements, or points to an arbitrary system and get a better system as a result.

What i do appreciate about the notion of gamification is that it can be used as a trojan horse for making developers/designers/product ppl to think about user experience.

That said, i treat nearly anything that talks about gamification with a jaundiced eye. I think that encouraging user interaction has little to do with games, and much more to do with understanding the position of one's product/system and what users' motivations are.

Is facebook's "poke" a "gameified" feature? Cause it certainly encouraged engagement, and fit in the sphere of what facebook was trying to accomplish. No points, no levels, no achievements, and yet it ended up kicking off a massive number of game-like descendants.

I think that's the real reason why the notion of 'gamification' is bullshit. It doesn't really mean anything. (If you can give me a suitable definition of "game" then i'll reassess ;) )

yesimahuman• 15 years ago

I'm sure there's an argument in there. I only heard him trash the phrase and the supposed people who exploit the phrase. How about showing examples of gamification and explain why you think they are "bullshit?"

jasonwocky• 15 years ago

Yeah, to me it sounded like little more than "Marketing is bullshit and anything it touches becomes bullshit by association. And by the way, I don't have to prove any of this."

mindcrime• 15 years ago

Yep, that's pretty much what I got out of it as well. My initial reaction, to be honest, was "the only bullshit I see around here, is this article."

I'm sure there are some elements of truth and some valid points in what he says, but the anti-marketing stuff is so over-the-top that it obscures the deeper point(s), IMO.

Lewisham2• 15 years ago

This is a follow-on piece from an article Bogost wrote in Gamasutra [1]. It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you are aware of Bogost's previous commentary.

His main point is that gamification is an empty relationship: nothing of value is exchanged by either party. That it "works" is an unfortunate product of our psychological wiring, and is thus more aptly described as "exploitationware."

It's important to note that Bogost has worked for many years on serious/persuasive games as a means of exposing systems. Allowing users to interact with those systems as a means of persuasion or education is, as far as he's concerned, a more enlightening experience.

[1] http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6366/persuasive_games_...

aik• 15 years ago

Explitationware? Put that way, isn't every extrinsic motivator an exploit? Bonuses at work, financial targets set by others that are your responsibility, grades in school from the perspective of the student, "awards" in Khan Academy, all advertising, etc. Do you agree?

GBKS• 15 years ago

I'm not sure what the recent hype about gamification is. It's an old, established practice. From your rewards card at the grocery store, to skymiles, coupons in the Sunday newspaper and all the little tricks in infomercials on TV. At least those are about actual money instead of bits and bytes. Then again, who knows, since prices could be artificially inflated to make discounts look good.

_delirium3• 15 years ago

I think the lack of "actual money instead of bits and bytes" is the primary difference, though. Gamification is about trying to use gameplay as something that incentivizes just by being played, without requiring actual transfer of monetary incentives like rebates, discounts, or vouchers. If that works, the appeal is obvious, because why pay users to achieve some goal when you can incentivize them via gameplay, which is free? (In addition, advocates argue that it may engage in ways that money doesn't, by pulling people into an activity they feel part of.)

As an alternative to incentivizing via payment, it might actually be more related to Soviet attempts to use achievements and game-type competitions in factories to up production and build community/engagement, albeit obviously less coercive: http://www.kmjn.org/notes/soviet_gamification.html

ChuckMcM• 15 years ago

Well there are two concepts in play here, one is like the old S&H Greenstamps, which is to take an activity that is normally a process to achieve a goal (say shopping for groceries so you can eat) into something that is itself a goal (do enough shopping and you can get a new toaster). The airlines created 'milers' who are folks who spend time figuring out ways to keep their executive memberships current by having enough miles.

The second is the notion of awards and 'achievements' which provide ego reinforcement for folks who might otherwise be appalled at how much time they are spending on an activity. This provides a convienient rationalization path so that folks don't say "I just wasted three hours on the TMZ site, instead they got three 'oscars' for finding all the Paula Abdul stories in under three hours."[1] Its a rationalization that they 'achieved' something by investing that time.

Affinity programs, (such as airline miles, green stamps, etc) are pretty straight forward since they give information that the customer has done a certain volume of business with you, you can afford to give them a discount (post facto) by discounting stuff with affinity 'points.' Achievement / Titles type programs are a way to tap into the human rationalization engine and generally only make the consumer feel better (or less bad) about the poor value they have received.

[1] Its an entirely fictitious example, only the web site, TMZ, is real and it really is a complete waste of anyone's time :-)

T_S_• 15 years ago

Great comment. Gamification turns work into play. Removes guilt from play. Play is ego gratification or "flow" or a combination.

Hisoka• 15 years ago

Adding incentives to boring activities sucks. But adding a layer that helps people measure their progress/achievements is absolutely not bullshit, if done well. Why? Because of human nature. Saying it's bullshit is fighting against our intrinsic nature.

Think about the normal job. We're given abstract goals and vague feedback. How do we "win" at getting a project done? Or even becoming a better developer? We can't. The result is too far in the future, and we easily become unmotivated, and demoralized when we can't see the result as quickly as possible. However, anything that helps measure our progress gives us motivation to continue on. Indicators that tell us how far we've improved keep us in the game.

Any goal that takes too long can benefit from these principles, whether it's language learning, work, etc. We don't need badges, points, etc. We just need something that feeds our desire for progress, improvement and achievement. We need that sense of "win". The same feeling you get when you finish cleaning your room, or heating something in the microwave for 1 minute.

Call it gamification, or whatever. To be honest, I don't even think it should have a term (it just causes people to screw things up as they try to apply it to stuff that don't need it). Things like loyalty cards, or racking up points for a flight is NOWHERE near where the real benefit lies. It's just marketing.

But saying it's bullshit is a disservice.

absconditus• 15 years ago

It is bullshit because its main use is getting people to do things that are unnecessary so that corporations can make more money.

One must also wonder why such things are necessary now.

dave_sullivan• 15 years ago

Sales orgs have been running sales contests since the beginning of time. Salespeople don't take part because it makes the company more money (even though it does) they take part because it connects with their competitive spirit, gives them an opportunity to make more money, and is usually associated with some new push/technique/product for the rep to try out in the field.

Game mechanics as it applies to business is essentially just the internet version of the sales contest applied to different orgs. The problem has been that areas like customer service and development have been harder to track than areas like sales. And even sales has had to define new metrics as the sales cycle gets longer and longer, it's no longer enough to just measure the outcome, you've got to measure what happens in between. These same techniques can and are being applied to other areas, and there's a lot more that can be done.

To some extent 'game mechanics/gamification' is just another buzzword but it also represents a pretty powerful concept that can be used to build more effective organizations.

Pointsly2• 15 years ago

'do things that are unnecessary' - that's a pretty bold statement. who are you to decide?

iloveyouocean• 15 years ago

"The result is too far in the future, and we easily become unmotivated, and demoralized when we can't see the result as quickly as possible."

This isnt a problem for me if I am acting from my 'core values' and doing work that I believe to be leading me towards a goal. Aligning my actions with my internal beliefs is far more effective than climbing the ranks of the leaderboard.

timwiseman• 15 years ago

But adding a layer that helps people measure their progress/achievements is absolutely not bullshit, if done well.

You have an excellent point. While I would not call it "gamifying", I certainly find that I go running more consistently and for longer distances when I make a point of logging more runs. It simply shows me clearly my progress (or lack thereof).

mhb3• 15 years ago

He defines "bullshit" and not "gamification"?

knowtheory6• 15 years ago

That would be consistent with what he's discussing. If he believes "gamification" to be bullshit, the term isn't something that can be mapped to a true/false claim. It's undefinable bullshit.

mhb3• 15 years ago

I can define a lot of things that I believe are bullshit and whose definition doesn't "map to a true/false claim" (though I don't understand what that means either).

_delirium3• 15 years ago

Well, it looks like it was a panel at the Wharton Gamification Symposium, so probably assumed to be something like, "all the stuff the previous and subsequent presenters are talking about", which judging by the venue is heavily on the biz/marketing side.

jradoff• 15 years ago

No, but overuse of behaviorism is bullshit: http://radoff.com/blog/2011/08/09/gamification-behaviorism-b...

ryanelkins2• 15 years ago

I definitely think gamification is in a hype stage right now. Some people seem to think it fix anything and others are happy to take their money. Gamification is young and no one has a good grasp of what it actually is or how it can best be applied.

I like the idea that it can act as a better source of feedback. I think the Stack Exchange sites do a good of this. It obviously works - HN itself moved to make karma less noticeable because it was altering behaviors so much. The key will be to figure out how to best harness it apply it to a worthwhile end. We're working to use gamification to help people learn new systems faster, understand what is expected of them, and drive business goals. It's working pretty well towards those goals so far.

Pointsly2• 15 years ago

I think the game layer is real - I like Shell's statement - 'how can it not happen?'

see - http://g4tv.com/videos/44277/dice-2010-design-outside-the-bo...

zwieback• 15 years ago

This is the first time I've heard of gamification - I guess I must have been under a rock some place. I think there may be a good point hidden in a bunch of angry rhetoric but I can't quite distill what it is, even after reading his earlier piece. He comes across a little like an annoyed hipster who is forced to find a new costume after noticing everyone is suddenly wearing lumberjack shirts.

It's called snobbery.

barce• 15 years ago

This seems to be the quick summary.

Gamification coerces in that an organization can leverage the phrase, "we made your work more interesting, you have to do more."

It conceals in that the author feels there is no value add.

It impresses in that it's such a fad.

This tends to ignore Jane McGonigal's work on games as necessary because reality is broken. I'd be very curious about the author's thoughts on her work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_McGonigal

_delirium3• 15 years ago

He has a moderately positive review of her book: http://www.bogost.com/blog/reality_is_broken.shtml

He disagrees with its approach in the end, but credits it with being much better than what he categorizes as gamification:

One can only hope that McGonigal's book scores an epic win against the trite, simplistic trends in "gamification" that her smart, sophisticated ideas overshadow.

neilk• 15 years ago

I hate this whole trend of "gamification" or "game mechanics". It's profoundly ignorant and just the latest thing for consultants to hype. Because, due to some high profile successes, it is now easy for them to suggest that if you just add a layer of game-like-ness onto your app, you can make a loser product into a winner.

I don't hate all the sites that are touted as successes of gamification, though. StackOverflow is great. But there is a profound difference between StackOverflow is doing, and what Farmville is doing.

StackOverflow is trying to produce community resources of lasting value. Their "game" system is merely a way of recording that value, and allocating resources. It is fundamentally based on the judgments of the community.

Meanwhile, Farmville is clever at making an activity which simply enriches the game's owners look like the construction of community resources, or look like competition to display valuable skills.

My view is that there is no "gamification". The metaphor is backwards. Games are mere simulations of the kinds of things humans like -- to compete, to be valued, to be trusted, to build things, to have rare resources. It's far better to make your site more like a community, than more like a game.

americandesi333• 15 years ago

I think this article stops just short of making a leap and saying that game elements are now used as marketing tool to create 'stickiness'. When I ask most entrepreneurs the question- what will make people come back to their website, majority of them tell me that they are thinking of adding a gamification angle to keep getting people back.

I agree that gamification brings out the human values of competitiveness, trust, credibility. But I don't think gamification by itself creates a long lasting business advantage. After all, people will get tired of playing these games some day.

Great post and makes me think about the 'herd mentality'!

gmac• 15 years ago

I enjoyed the article, and I think I agree that most of what's described as gamification is bullshit. Which is a shame, because I think there are areas where it's a genuinely useful, meaningful idea, and those have been drowned out by the tides of PR.

In a similar way, the word 'sustainable' -- which could be an extremely useful word -- has been abused into total semantic oblivion (such as the UK government's recently introduced presumption in favour of 'sustainable growth', by which they mean nothing more than 'growth').

RobIsIT• 15 years ago

Not bullshit: Motivation.

Gamification is one way to motivate people. There are others.

anigbrowl• 15 years ago

Incentives are not the whole of gamificattion (although I do think they're bullshit in most non-gaming contexts).

melvinram• 15 years ago

The OP is attempting to make 3 core arguments with this post:

1) Language that conceals the truth, attempts to impress others or coerce people is bullshit.

2) Creating a word such as "gamification" is attempting to conceal the truth, impress others or coerce people.

3) The word "gamification" is used to conceal the truth, impress others or coerce people.

The first argument holds water but the other two are half truths at best.

Words are created all the time, but they are not just used to try and conceal the truth, impress others or coerce people. It is often used simply to make concepts easier to digest and understand. It gives people a common vocabulary so that they can have more in-depth discussions.

Yes, the words will be bastardized and used by people who really have no idea what they are talking about but to use them as the baseline of how you treat everyone using the word is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Simplifying a concept into a word so it's easier to understand is far from attempting to conceal the truth, impress others or coerce.

jasontsui• 15 years ago

I agree. The author seems to be caught up in the semantics here. The way I read it, the criticism stems from its use as a buzzword instead of its implementation as a concept. The word itself just allows us to have a conversation about it without detailing it in full each time. Gamification is no more bullshit than SEO or UX. Its simply utilizing things weve learned from other fields to create better experiences for users.

cubicle67• 15 years ago

for those on Lion with a limited vocabulary like mine, try a double tap using three fingers to get definitions of unknown words

[Edit for context: FTA: accompanied by a turgid budgetary arrow and a tumescent rocket, suggesting the inevitable priapism this powerful pill will bring about]

Gamification is bullshit

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