London riots / UK riots: verified areas

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f7&msa=0&ll=51.558503,-0.055275&spn=0.114195,0.298691

by otherwise • 15 years ago

100 119 15 years ago

maps.google.co.uk

ColinWright3• 15 years ago

What would be really useful would be to have this colour coded by day so we could see the evolution through time.

ColinWright3• 15 years ago

This page has a colour-coded map: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248

Not a good one, but at least it's something.

willyt6• 15 years ago

Apparently the rioters are organising using blackberry messenger. Seems like the police are about 2 hours behind what's happening.

teyc• 15 years ago

BBM. Doesn't the government have access to these?

willyt6• 15 years ago

Aren't they encrypted somehow? What was the thing in Saudi Arabia (might have been different middle east country) where the gov't banned blackberry because they couldn't snoop?

LoonyPandora2• 15 years ago

I'm a Londoner near some of the affected areas. The sky is not falling, London is not degenerating into lawlessness, and from what I can see from my flat window, police are responding quickly.

Other areas may be different, but London is a very large city - commenters should remember that in discussions.

abcd_f2• 15 years ago

So what was the trigger that started the riots?

eru• 15 years ago

I heard some bloke was shot by the police.

ColinWright3• 15 years ago

Originally there was a peaceful protest over the shooting of a young man during a police operation. that seems to have been hijacked by mobs intent purely on violence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248

The initial areas are fairly poor and have a history of tension with the police, but the disturbances tonight seem simply to be youths intent on causing damage and looting.

I'm not in London, these are my impressions to give you a quick answer. They may not hold up to future scrutiny.

Also: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14442935

ollysb• 15 years ago

This is what triggered it off, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/05/man-shot-police-...

and here's a little background context http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-...

pbhjpbhj3• 15 years ago

It appears a known criminal (gangs, drug-dealing) with a loaded handgun was shot by police while resisting arrest; he may or may not have shot a police officer [first] at the time of his arrest ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/a-dead-man-a-cruc...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8687403...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-profile...

yread• 15 years ago

I really liked this commentary http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/tottenha... although you might disagree with him, at least it states quite clearly a reason why are people rioting.

mcrider• 15 years ago

That's even scarier. When we had our (ridiculous) riots here in Vancouver a couple months back, it was all in one area. Many will argue that the cops didn't do a great job keeping it under control, but at least they kept everything in a relatively small zone away from residential areas, and it petered out over the night. Doesn't the fact that they're springing up all over London point to there being a systemic problem that is provoking people to more violence? How many days has this been going on now, three? Is there an end in sight?

abcd_f2• 15 years ago

London is a much larger city with what seems like a lower quality of life for many people. Basically the number of potential rioteers in London is way higher than in Vancouver, so it is logical that their riots will be stronger and longer when they do spark.

LoonyPandora2• 15 years ago

I don't want to turn this into a rumour thread, the news sites can keep people up to date.

I just want people to keep in mind that the news will be sensationalist, and not to think that the entire city is in flames.

SandB0x• 15 years ago

I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road. Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad times.

Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town: http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup

ottbot• 15 years ago

It's very frustrating knowing the police can do little to contain or manage the situation, and we're completely at the mercy of rioters as to what will happen next or when it will stop.

A group of 30-40 of them went up my street, smashing cars, and started congregating out front, all holding glass bottles -- this just when reports of homes being broken into started coming out. Absolutely horrifying, luckily something spooked them and they moved up the street.

nkassis2• 15 years ago

I don't know how tight the community but could the residents organize to protect the areas? A little like what the Egyptians were doing? Blocking roads and letting only residents pass?

jamesbritt3• 15 years ago

Isn't anybody there armed? Is it illegal to use a weapon to defend your home?

temphn6• 15 years ago

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting.

As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality".

Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms.

EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this. Just proves the point that those who would actually use force to restore order will be called out as "committing police brutality."

Mz6• 15 years ago

Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms.

My ex was career military. I don't know about the UK, but he always said "You really don't want to bring in the military (for stuff like this). Police are trained to wound and bring them in alive. We are trained to shoot to kill."

Jach2• 15 years ago

Because using force to restore order has worked so well for Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Syria? Or are you implying that London citizens are pussies and will stand down where the other countries' citizens didn't/aren't? I highly doubt escalating will solve anything, but who knows.

Ed: Wrote this too quickly without thinking enough on it. I don't think violent response is the answer, but given the nature of the situation I'll shift my position to thinking it'd probably work in this case.

barrkel4• 15 years ago

Don't bet on it. The group dynamic (deindividuation[1]) behind rioting is exactly the same as the group dynamic used to build armies that are willing to risk their lives on orders. Introducing military on the streets like was done in Northern Ireland[2] is a recipe for decades of pain and division. The military are not police; you don't want that.

[1] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/02/10/deindividuation/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29

(The reason I, for one, downvoted you is because I strongly believe what you wrote is naive and misinformed, to the point of being dangerous.)

PS: For a constructive position, I believe water cannons are the right answer.

gcb• 15 years ago

In most countries i lived (UK not included) the army can only be used for pacific work inside the country.

It's against all countries' constitution I know of to use the army in internal affairs that include use of force.

And I doubt the riots are killing anyone. You probably lost more money for corrupt government office holders than to any riot-smashing-your-precious-things you will face in your life time. so focus your desire to raise arms more effectively, please.

waitwhat4• 15 years ago

If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting.

You do realise what "shot on sight" means, right? Dead. Forever. No takebacks.

If you really think that summary execution is a reasonable response to throwing a brick through a window, shouting at people in a scary way, or nicking a couple of packets of cigarettes then you are officially an Internet Crazy Person.

csomar• 15 years ago

>> The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot.

I think the riots were triggered by a man shot by police. So you want now to shot more people, and consequently trigger more riots. If there are people rioting then there is a reason. Go and talk to them. Understand what they want. If they are badly educated, that's probably your fault (your are the government).

rickmb2• 15 years ago

It's a good thing that in the real world, we have people in charge with some restraint. Which is why most riots in the West end without bloodshed, shots fired or the military being abused to fight it's own citizens.

Order is rarely restored through some short-sighted power-fantasy that disregards the value of human lives. But lots of dictatorships started that way though. And often with the best of intentions.

yaix• 15 years ago

Wow.

In Europe we prefer to find the problem and solve it, discuss and communicate with each other, instead of shooting at people and hope they'll be too scared to continue rioting.

Fargren2• 15 years ago

I'm almost embarrassed to ask, but why is this happening? I read that this started saturday as a protest against a policeman who shot someone, but that doesn't seem to be what the protests is about now. The sources I checked don't reach any kind of consensus.

estel2• 15 years ago

It's long since become little more than hooliganism. I'm sure a variety a deeper societal-reasons will be dredged up in the weeks and months to come; but what started off as a sit-in on Saturday is now just a backdrop for a large number of disaffected people, mainly youths, to smash shops and steal.

itg• 15 years ago

Started off as a protest against a police shooting (details will depend on which side you ask) and then escalated. Now it is just vandalizing, destroying property, and looting. Some BBC commenters were saying that for the young guys, the austerity measures with a combination of feeling marginalized, unemployed, and no hope for a future plays a part in this too.

watmough• 15 years ago

Yes, the eighties austerity, cuts, unemployment and we had riots then too.

Local council budgets are being cut. Libraries and swimming pools, after school activities, policing. All being eroded.

From what I see of the news, it's somehow different this time. Perhaps more nihilistic, versus the more confrontational riots in the eighties. It definitely seems there's a goal of hitting shops full of 'shinys'.

Of course, modern messaging may also be playing a part in enabling more 'agile' riots.

guelo• 15 years ago

I had always been told that UK cops didn't carry guns, when/why did that change? Was it a reaction to 9/11 or 7/7?

reader5000• 15 years ago

It's not native Britons rioting, largely it is young members of immigrant communities. However, given the apparent youth of the rioters I doubt racial politics is a significant issue here. It appears to indeed be rioting for the sake of rioting.

polshaw2• 15 years ago

I disagree that we are seeing any significant number of first generation immigrants here.

semanticist2• 15 years ago

Almost every report I have heard, from the media and from people directly there, has made it clear that these are mixed-race groups of young people.

This is not 'immigrant communities', this is people who were born here.

tomsaffell• 15 years ago

Source required. It's not completely clear what you mean by native and immigrant, but it could be construed as racial slander. Please clarify and source.

NB - I'm not normally a stickler for sourcing, but I feel a statement as controversial as this requires one.

barrkel4• 15 years ago

I've seen plenty of perfectly white skin in the crowds, though not necessarily on their faces, of course.

willyt6• 15 years ago

Originally it was a protest about the guy that got shot by the police. But, there's a lot of kids with nothing to lose and in the last couple of hours they've realised it's a free for all.

I'm not justifying anything here just trying to make an analysis: The reason they don't care is because they don't have a hope in hell of getting a job in mainstream society that would pay enough to get them out of the bunk bed in their parents house. London is so expensive to live in and there's a lot of poorly educated young people that are stuck with no chance of an independent life. So the attitude on the street is like 'we can't get it by getting a job and living normally so we're just gonna take it'. There's very little chance of getting caught at the moment, no reason not to. So it's not really random violence and stealing, it's probably even at some level a rational choice to do this if you are someone in this position.

The police can't cope because they don't seem to understand how the rioters are organising through BBM and because Britain has relatively fewer police officers per head of population compared to other European countries and the US.

Who knows what'll happen next. Twitter is lit up with people saying 'send in the army' at the moment which seems nuts to me but quite frankly seems like anything could happen tonight.

bokonist2• 15 years ago

Forty years ago Harvard Professor Edward Banfield wrote a chapter in his book about the riots of the 1960's. From what I can tell, almost everything he wrote applies to these current riots in London.

The primary reason that people riot is that rioting is fun. It gives an immense surge of adrenaline and other hormones, it gives the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. In order for a riot to occur there must be some sort of event that acts as a Schelling point or catalyst. This Schelling point might be a real grievance, or a contrived one. It might be some innocuous event, like a sports victory. News of the riot spreads via the news channels of the day - tv, internet, twitter, etc - and the riot snowballs. The final necessary ingredient is weakness on the part of the police. If the police are outnumbered, and only allowed to manually arrest with handcuffs, then the rioters will go wild, and even more rioters will join as they realize they suffer no consequence for their actions. If the police start beating the hell out of people, or even using live rounds, the riot ends fast.

Banfield's book is online. The section on riots starts on page 211: http://www.scribd.com/doc/49096486/Edward-C-Banfield-The-Unh...

techiferous2• 15 years ago

the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction.

I find that really hard to relate to, although I do see this in some people. I wonder if these people have ever had the thrill of creation--birthing something beautiful and unique into the world? That's quite a rush, too. Are riots ultimately a symptom of a failure to educate, to guide, to nurture?

jsmcgd• 15 years ago

For me this is simple opportunism. The authorities have clearly been overwhelmed and people are able to do what they like with impunity. I really think the state response needs to escalate.

viraptor2• 15 years ago

True, I was scanning reports for some serious police/military actions but found nothing. Vehicles and buildings are on fire, rioters are aggressive and don't care about the police, random people are injured... I really find it hard to come up with an explanation for not using force necessary to stop it right now. That's a third day now - each adding damage to completely unrelated people and property.

I work in Bristol and wouldn't be surprised if riots started happening in some areas there, unless London ones are dealt with straight away.

Edit: Just read reports of police stations being set on fire. Now I'm really curious what exactly is the official plan for dealing with the situation.

viraptor2• 15 years ago

I found this page pretty good: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-riots-t... Updated every couple of minutes with reports from various sources.

Also according to the latest updates, there are some incidents in Birmingham and Liverpool.

nsimplex2• 15 years ago

Hearing the accounts from some commuters returning home of what they witnessed on their commute; it struck me as the first time I hear a use case where Color would actually add some value. ;)

Also it is amusing to see the looters use BBM, which has been the corporate -type favoured mean of communication to loot the economy for years.

On a serious note, just heard a devastating interview with a 6th generation furniture store manager, while witnessing his family store go up in flames (you will see the pic tomorrow in most of the frontages).

It is extraordinarily terrifying to consider the implications if the thugs were a bit more organised, a bit more dispersed, a bit more armed; how much more havoc they could cause.

For example consider the implication to the economy if they start targeting more affluent locations, such the central London high streets (Oxford street, Knightsbridge...). The insurance industry has already been wiped out this year, it will be a deadly blow. To say nothing of the recently depressed UK retail performance which fuels a lot of the London economy.

Or the implications to house prices and thousands of stretched mortgage holders (London housing bubble is perhaps the only housing bubble in the world that hasn't quite popped in the last two years, and if it does at this time it will be cataclysmic) .

No doubt they already wrecked immeasurable damage to the economy, except they bankrupt the already bankrupt councils, which is the core tragedy in all of this.

reinhardt• 15 years ago

Can't help but compare this to the uprising in the Middle East over the last months. Sure, the motivation is different, or even incomprehensible in the case of London. Still, they're both begging the question "why now?" and they exhibit characteristics of a highly contagious epidemic, where the original reasons are almost irrelevant. People frustrated for all sorts of different reasons find the opportunity to express violently their anger with much less fear of repercussions than usual, mostly thanks to their sheer number and decentralization. It's fascinating (or scary, depending how close you are).

nsimplex2• 15 years ago

Indeed there might be some parallels, especially the fact that the London events started as a peaceful legitimate (to my mind) protest, that has been hijacked by vandals/thieves.

But the parallel stops here; most of the gangsters in the Middle Eastern protests were government stooges that got outnumbered by the civilians and consequently fizzled out.

mkr-hn• 15 years ago

Scary absolutely, no matter your location. The factors that seem to be setting them off exist in most technically wealthy countries. This should be troubling for anyone who lives in an area with masses of unemployed young people.

That's probably most people on HN.

FrojoS• 15 years ago

So much for all that video camera surveillance (CCTV) in London.

vii• 15 years ago

Seems to me that this would be a huge opportunity for some well co-ordinated use of social media by the MET: many people have seen looters return to their home with their swag and would probably be delighted to report it anonymously - along with all photos taken by people of the actual looting. The refugees seem to have no clear contact number let alone website to go to on their smartphones. These people surely are motivated to inform on the rioters and quite probably have useful knowledge.

And finally, phone location records - even without call history and text messages - could be data-mined to give leads on the rioters - when they go home to sleep pick them up with the loot, and you have an easier case than two weeks later with it all squirrelled away.

madamepsychosis• 15 years ago

There's a twitter campaign to clean up london, @riotcleanup

tintin• 15 years ago

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/

Looter archive.

ctdonath• 15 years ago

And now for something completely insensitive: http://wondermark.com/743/

London riots / UK riots: verified areas

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