Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

https://www.postgresql.org/about/news/trademark-actions-against-the-postgresql-community-2302/

by alch- • 5 years ago

283 121 5 years ago

mistrial9• 5 years ago

Perhaps for legal reasons it is important to show willingness to negotiate .. but really, a land-grab like this gets "we hope we can be friends" response ?

"The PostgreSQL Core Team and PGCAC still hope for an amicable resolution" ..

lm2s• 5 years ago

I think it just means "outside of court".

Loic• 5 years ago

It shows the benevolence of the PostgreSQL Community(TM) ;-)

I think this is the morally right way to handle the issue. This way they also accumulate good-will if they need to take stronger legal actions. I like it.

clra3• 5 years ago

It's worth noting that (from the article) the offender in this case isn't some gigantic organization like Amazon — it's basically one guy, and one who considers himself to be a member in good standing whose part of the Postgres community.

I'd hazard a guess that by taking this public, the Postgres team is trying to create some pressure on him through public opinion in the hope that he sees reason and it doesn't have to become a long and arduous legal battle which benefits no one.

And it really shouldn't have to. It's not clear what Álvaro's actual motives are in trying to usurp the Postgres trademark — it could be some cynical profiteering thing, but hopefully it was just some momentary hubris that can still be walked back and resolved amicably.

slashdev• 5 years ago

Yeah, I'm guessing this is just an ego thing that got out of hand. Hopefully he comes around before both sides waste a lot of resources in court.

CRConrad7• 5 years ago

usurp

[Citation needed]

I mean, assume good faith, strongest possible reading, etc etc: Isn't it perfectly possible that he's actually just doing exactly what he says he's doing?

The "PostgreSQL Community" is supposed to be decentralised, with no intellectual property held by any single entity to target in a hostile takeover, so he's just doing his bit to help decentralise holding of trademarks.

Seems a perfectly plausible reading of events; far from "cynical profiteering", nor even "momentary hubris".

price• 5 years ago

That's not an offer to give ground to them in any material way. The next sentence says "the PostgreSQL Core Team and PGCAC will pursue all options until" the land-grabbing group surrenders all their land-grab claims.

That's just saying: we hope they'll recognize that what they're doing doesn't make any sense, and give it up rather than pursue a fight all the way through the legal process.

matsemann• 5 years ago

What's the end game of the Spanish org? What are they trying to achieve with this?

happy_path• 5 years ago

I'm afraid that It's just a guy with grandeur delusions.

aunty_helen• 5 years ago

Getting a foothold. Spain doesn’t operate on the same level as other European countries when it comes to some things, banking and trademarks would be two good examples of this.

hythythyt• 5 years ago

why?

gilrain• 5 years ago

A narcissist is equating himself with a community he fancies and is attempting to force it under his control.

Tobu• 5 years ago

Shades of https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-bee...

tempest_4• 5 years ago

In the spirit of the open source movement, the PostgreSQL community has always tried to operate transparently and fairly, and provide resources for people to adopt, use, and promote PostgreSQL. We continuously look to improve and are very much open to feedback (look no further than the discussions on our mailing lists)!

Perhaps I am just a little too young but I do find the use of mailing lists in some of the older open source projects to be a bit cumbersome in 2021. I know there are advantages to them and their semi decentralized nature is a feature but I sure do find them difficult to interact with.

Regardless of the above I do hope they come to a amicable solution and it is interesting to me to find that Postgres trade marks are held by a Canadian entity.

jimhefferon• 5 years ago

Cumbersone in what way?

gaudat• 5 years ago

Worse UX to this generation of developers than say Discord or other IMs I guess.

elzbardico• 5 years ago

Let me say that I am honestly curious too.

tempest_4• 5 years ago

Perhaps I am alone is this (based on the votes) but when I go to https://www.postgresql.org/list/ it requires a great deal of clicking to drill down and lets say I eventually end up some where like https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-general/2021-09/ I am greeted with a lot "Re:" "No subject" etc.

Perhaps what is comes down to is I am trying to interact with a mailing list using a browser which is perhaps unfair. I would say that discovering what is being talked about and the barriers to entry for subscribing/unsubscribing provide way more friction then, lets say a subreddit or even a more classical forum layout.

anonymousisme2• 5 years ago

Linux has had the LKML for almost three decades. It still works well for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_mailing_list

staticassertion3• 5 years ago

Does it? I find it really cumbersome. We were just interacting with it the other day and found it annoyingly baroque. There's a lot of assumed knowledge and I've read a fair bit of documentation and have been following Kernel development since before my career.

It "works" for the people who it works for and that's it.

Supermancho• 5 years ago

I don't participate in any mailing lists since at least 2008 and I'm pretty sophisticated. What constitutes "works" is that they (Linux Kernel working group) have a very primitive forum (mailing list) wherein there is no recognized pressure to change. People still use HAM radio because they "work" but that's not the optimal way to collaborate.

Give it a few more decades.

mjw10072• 5 years ago

It's a shame the PostgreSQL lists dropped off Gmane. That used to be a decent way to read them.

throwthere• 5 years ago

Álvaro Hernández here apparently runs a PostgreSQL consulting firm [1] and controls "Fundación PostgreSQL." Would Fundación PostgreSQL have the power to grant exclusive use of the trademark to the consulting firm?

[1] https://ongres.com/about-us/#team

clra3• 5 years ago

Just to play devil's advocate — OOC, what do you think the end game for Álvaro would be under this scenario?

Under the most cynical interpretation, I guess he'd convert Ongres from a Postgres consultancy to a trademark troll and sue other companies who try to use "Postgres"? Maybe, but that's a pretty serious professional change, and seems a little unlikely, especially given that's a considerable chance that he loses the trademark again if it does end up in court.

For my money, the most likely explanation is that it was a land grab move for prestige purposes that went too far. (And one which may backfire as Google ties this press release to his name.)

BizarroLand• 5 years ago

Trademark trolling is specifically the use case for this. Sue every sub $300k/yr company than mentions that they use PostgreSQL in their stack. They won't have the funds to defend themselves, he makes off with $10k-$30k in settlements and goes on to the next one until a court stops him.

shkkmo3• 5 years ago

I get the impression that Álvaro has issues with the governance of the core team and PGCAC and thus wanted trademarks to protect his consultancy that were under the control of his non-profit which he believes has stricter governance. He also seems to be interested in leveraging the trademarks to force governance changes on the core team and PGCAC.

ahachete16• 5 years ago

Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution. Its governing board cannot have more than 40% members of the same company. Please go to https://postgresql.fund/ and read the Statutes.

Actually, a "Fundación" in Spain is an entity specially scrutinized by the Ministry of Justice, and could never to anything like this. It is meant to be for the public good.

Besides, this very same question could have been applied to the Core Team members that are employees of EDB and/or Crunchy, two entities that control the majority of Core. And Core is not even a non-profit, it's nothing (there's no legal entity behind). Or the PostgreSQL Association of Canada, which is an association which could definitely grant exclusive trademark use to a given entity, as it is not scrutinized by a country's Ministry, as a Fundación in Spain is.

rhaas2• 5 years ago

The only name I can find on the "Fundación PostgreSQL" web site is yours. The PostgreSQL core team membership is listed on postgresql.org and includes 7 members from 4 different companies. I agree that perhaps the PostgreSQL core team could and should have more diversity than it does, and not just in terms of who employs them ... but an organization with only one publicly-disclosed member is not somehow better.

petergeoghegan5• 5 years ago

Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution.

What about private individuals? Specifically, you?

Quoting the charter here: https://postgresql.fund/documents/Fundacion_PostgreSQL-Statu...:

""" Article 13. Honorary Members. ... 2. The Founder, Mr. Alvaro Carlos Hernandez Tortosa, is Honorary Life Member as the Honorary President of the Foundation, appointment that is not incompatible with any other post at the Foundation or the Patronage. He can assist the Patronage acts with voice. He doesn’t have the right to vote, unless his status of elected or founding Member of the Patronage applies. """

It goes on to say:

""" Article 15. Duties of the Patronage. During its performance, the Patronage must comply with the required under current legislation and the willingness of the Founder expressed in this Statutes. """

I have to admit that this document is above my reading comprehension level. What does this actually mean?

lol768• 5 years ago

Can you please make your affiliation with Fundación PostgreSQL clear in both your bio and a disclaimer in the comments you write here? Thanks.

mattashii3• 5 years ago

Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution.

I think that it is highly dubious that a foundation that claims to be independent (from the PostgreSQL project, I suppose), with no ties to any other PostgreSQL community foundations and/or associations ("company or institution"), claims "PostgreSQL" or derivatives of the brand as its trademark.

I could not find any reason to believe that the organization behind postgresql.fund is in any way affiliated with the PostgreSQL project, as I could not find it mentioned on any of the official affiliations pages (has no mailing list, events, IRC, LUG mention, nor a link in the international sites section). I repeat, I believe that postgresql.fund claiming ownership of the PostgreSQL brand (or basic derivatives thereof) in any category is highly dubious.

foobarbazetc2• 5 years ago

There’s literally no way any of the filed trademarks will be granted if the core team files opposition.

Don’t waste your time “negotiating”.

foobarbazetc2• 5 years ago

Also, the core team should use their Canadian (or whichever country they have earliest file date in) to file for a WIPO/Madrid mark.

ryanisnan• 5 years ago

I hope you're right. This fella seems a bit like a trademark troll.

remram5• 5 years ago

Why does this happen? What's the point of trademarks existing at all, if you have to fight for it every time someone makes a claim to it? What's the point of registration if the same trademark will be awarded again without regard to existing trademarks in the same region?

jpalomaki• 5 years ago

In general you are responsible for defending your trademarks and taking action if they are violated.

In non-obvious cases this makes perfect sense. There’s plenty of abandoned trademarks. This system means that you can’t just take old and forgotten trademark and start suddenly demanding money from companies that (unknowingly) infringe it.

I believe this is also the reason why big name brands sometimes go after individuals for trademark violations.

remram5• 5 years ago

It looks like a trademark has already registered in Spain to that different organization, even though there were existing trademark registrations and an organization (PGCAC) actively looking to defend it.

Unless the PGCAC majorly messed up some process or didn't respond in time to inquiries from Spain officials, it looks to me like the system (at least in Spain?) does not work.

spinax• 5 years ago

This group attempted to register the trademark by extension to the USPTO and was denied for several reasons. Reason #2 for the denial was "Likelihood of Confusion" and points at the existing PostgreSQL trademark on file.

https://www3.wipo.int/madrid/monitor/en/showData.jsp?ID=ROM.... -> Real-time Status and then -> Documents -> United States of America -> (PDF link) https://madrid.wipo.int/documentaccess/documentAccess?docid=...

lobo_tuerto• 5 years ago

Looks like he likes to write articles and has been featured by some Postgres related Twitter accounts like PostgresWeekly (https://twitter.com/PostgresWeekly).

This is the guy in question: https://twitter.com/ahachete

ahachete16• 5 years ago

Leaving aside considerations about my person, here's Fundación PostgreSQL's response and HN discussion thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28514422

kylecordes• 5 years ago

I wonder why the pre-existing core PostgreSQL organization (not super-clear to me which this is) did already have these trademarks in the top handful of countries/jurisdictions. Rather than wait for someone else to try and then get in a potentially expensive fight. PostgreSQL has been around for 25 years, there has been ample time to figure that out, right?

Macha• 5 years ago

Sounds like in the US at least they _do_ have trademarks, the other organisations filing was declined by the PTO because of the existing mark, see the documents linked in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28513942

sp89622• 5 years ago

Likely because it is tedious (think watching paint dry) and expensive. And except if you take a shotgun approach to the service/goods classes you register in, you are still going to have exposure (in the US you need to provide proof of use down the road so its a non.starter there).

mjw10072• 5 years ago

Are OnGres or Álvaro Hernández active in PostgreSQL development, or otherwise active in the community?

Or have they appeared out of nowhere?

vickychijwani2• 5 years ago

I believe this is their HN profile, see for yourself (as indicated by comments from them in this thread): https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ahachete

Personally I'm interested in hearing more from them, as they don't fit the "trademark troll" description that commenters seem to be taking for granted here. Seeing some interesting discussion dynamics at play.

mbreese4• 5 years ago

At the same time though, they aren't playing the role of good community citizen either. It's really confusing to see what the motivations are here.

Why openly antagonize a community that you claim to be a part of and represent? I hope there is more to it, but otherwise, this just seems like a stunt.

Surely @ahachete must realize that the Postgres Core team must defend their trademarks (otherwise they can be lost or lose protection). And either way, I just don't see the endgame here.

ahachete16• 5 years ago

I hope this clarifies our point: https://postgresql.fund/blog/postgres-core-team-attacks-post...

shkkmo3• 5 years ago

Fundación PostgreSQL is a relatively new non-profit that has run two conferences in Ibiza (in 2019 and 2020) and is planning a third in 2022.

The only organizers listed for conferences are all members of Álvaro's OnGres consulting company. There don't appear to be any details on the number of attendees or on who gave what talks.

janc_2• 5 years ago

Maybe it’s a cover-up for a company-paid party week in Ibiza? Who knows… ;-)

robocat• 5 years ago

Here is the full response from Álvaro Hernández at Fundación PostgreSQL:

https://postgresql.fund/blog/postgres-core-team-attacks-post...

as referred to by Álvaro’s (hn user ahachete’s) comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28514523

I am repeating the link because ahachete was getting downvoted here and he also started a new thread instead of continuing this one.

ahachete16• 5 years ago

My bad. Thanks.

ahachete16• 5 years ago

We (Fundación PostgreSQL) posted a new post titled "Respecting the majority, questioning the status quo as a minority": https://postgresql.fund/blog/respecting-majority-questioning...

sigzero2• 5 years ago

You can question it all you want. You can't file a trademark for something that is already trademarked. EOS

sigzero2• 5 years ago

Fundación PostgreSQL is just wrong for trying this. Shame on them.

knorker• 5 years ago

I read the post. I read the rebuttal.

Clearly this guy is an asshole. He may (may) not be a trademark troll, but this is a self-serving asshole move, landgrabbing to promote his business.

You know what, maybe he has honest intentions. He's still an asshole.

This. Is. Not. Yours. You don't own it. You have applied for paperwork to own it. Incredible asshole move.

Your theory of distributed ownership doesn't matter, because IT'S NOT YOURS TO OWN.

CRConrad7• 5 years ago

From https://www.postgresql.org/about/news/trademark-actions-agai... :

In the spirit of the open source movement, the PostgreSQL community has always tried to operate transparently and fairly

Idunno, from reading both sides of this it doesn't much feel that way.

Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

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