Why don’t the French celebrate Lafayette?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/23/why-dont-the-french-celebrate-lafayette

by seattleiteite • 5 years ago

120 163 5 years ago

newyorker.com

NikolaeVarius• 5 years ago

I'm going to assume this is a reference to the fact a Hero of Two Worlds by Mike Duncan was just released.

karaterobot• 5 years ago

It's in the second paragraph of the article, and discussed throughout it.

chrononaut• 5 years ago

.. while a pleasingly informal new biography by the American podcast host Mike Duncan, “Hero of Two Worlds” ..

If you're interested in a podcast about the French revolution (and other revolutions), Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast is absolutely fantastic: https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/revolutions_podcast/

mchusma• 5 years ago

I'm listening to this now, midway between the french revolution (the third revolution in the series). It's good, I do recommend it.

NamTaf• 5 years ago

Thirded this recommendation. I'm ploughing through the 5th of (so far) 10 series - the Spanish American revolution - and every single one has thus far been fascinating. I cannot wait to then circle back around to his History of Rome podcast, which from reviews looks to be held in high regard.

seattleiteite2• 5 years ago

I recently had the pleasure of being in the Naval Museum in Cartagena. When the tour guide got to the section of the museum featuring Vernon's attempted takeover of the city, I was ecstatic. I was like, "I know about this! George Washington's brother fought in that battle!" Thanks to Mike I can be THAT guy on history tours now lol.

kayadera• 5 years ago

You are in for a treat. I've listened to the History of Rome several times, and it's fascinating each time. Enjoy!

seattleiteite2• 5 years ago

The author had nice, if somewhat demure, things to say about Mike Duncan. I absolutely love his Revolutions podcast and find his series on the French and Haitian revolutions to be particularly fun and interesting.

seibelj• 5 years ago

I recommend starting with the Haitian Revolution https://open.spotify.com/playlist/560AoqxmtPsadedqGKyKEz

Not crazy long, gives you a clear explanation about why it happened, and a solid feeling about what life was like back then. Highly, highly recommend.

bedobi2• 5 years ago

Yes! The Haitian one is the best!

nadagast• 5 years ago

Mike Duncan and Revolutions is great, endorse!

His previous podcast, The History of Rome, is also great.

bedobi2• 5 years ago

The season on the Haitian Revolution is the best of them!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR80t5Jg6Ec&list=PLn2IQnuuK7...

philipov• 5 years ago

My favorite is the Revolutions of 1848, because it's a non-linear narrative covering many separate revolutions that all occurred at once.

thatfrenchguy• 5 years ago

Why would we care?

dylan6046• 5 years ago

You'd think anytime the French did anything that messed with the Brits would be celebrated. Sure, it also helped the Yanks, but you don't have to care about that part. That sounds pretty French to me

nomdep• 5 years ago

Who is “we”?

isk517• 5 years ago

I would assume that thatfrenchguys is talking about his guys who are French.

edgyquant• 5 years ago

Because Lafayette lived an amazing life and took part in 3 separate revolutions?

doe882• 5 years ago

I think there is a simple explanation, he is not that known in France.

dylan6046• 5 years ago

Hell, he's not that well known in the US either. I know in my Revolutionary War studies, the French were pretty much a footnote. Not saying all teachings were as poor as mine, but I know the textbooks I used were used in a several other states.

mmmpop4• 5 years ago

You're joking, right? How many counties and cities in America have "Fayette", if not "Lafayette" in their names? That's our guy here. I was absolutely aware of him via my history classes at least as far back as high school no more than 20 years ago. But perhaps they stopped teaching actual history and relevant characters since then.

uncletaco2• 5 years ago

I feel like there's enough Lafayette cities and counties in the US to counter the notion that he isn't well known.

louhike• 5 years ago

He is pretty famous in France. Most cities have a street with his name, everybody learn about him in school. I think a lot of people don’t consider him that important compared to other french personalities.

doe882• 5 years ago

That’s funny, i was going to agree with you that he certainly was famous enough to have his street name… then i thought about it and i must say i’m now more persuaded than ever that he is not really famous in france not even by this low threshold, because in my n=1 sample, i’ve never seen a rue lafayette or avenue lafayette of my life!

benhurmarcel• 5 years ago

If you mention Lafayette to a French person, he’ll most likely think of the department store, not the person.

mytailorisrich4• 5 years ago

He is universally known in France. It's Rochambeau who isn't.

astrobe_• 5 years ago

Two centuries later, the liberation of France was turned, by the French imagination, into a French victory, albeit with some gallant support from the Americans

No, that's absolutely not the way we think about the liberation of Europe by the American army.

guggle• 5 years ago

Indeed... and if one is not convinced, a simple walk along the beaches of Normandy will make it very clear.

danielvf2• 5 years ago

[deleted]

rpmisms• 5 years ago

Wow, come on guys, the French helped us out early in our history, and we appreciate it and learn about it in school. At least give us a nod.

dudul• 5 years ago

What an ill-informed take. That is absolutely not how the victory of 1945 is presented in France.

Has the author ever visited Normandy?

murat124• 5 years ago

If you're interested in French revolution I highly recommend watching the movie made in 1989. It's in 2 parts, both are on YT, and Lafayette is played by Sam Neill. AFAIK it was the most expensive French movie until some time ago.

1- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ofCqCc3S1s

2- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtK2BnMmUM

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098238/

kevin_thibedeau• 5 years ago

Requires age confirmation in the land of the free. Presumably for body parts.

cm21872• 5 years ago

I second this. The revolution is still a highly politicised topic, but this movie is fairly balanced. It has an international cast so most dialogs are dubbed. I don’t know any better movie on that topic.

gadrev• 5 years ago

I had happily forgotten about the age restriction check, and Youtube asking for CC info or an ID, until now.

perl4ever• 5 years ago

I'm curious about how the French celebrate Napoleon, and if anyone has been calling for reinterpretation of him.

suction• 5 years ago

In France, you mostly see him as a caricature nowadays. In general, the urge to see people as war heroes, regardless of their abilities or achievements or who they thought against, is almost absent in continental Europe, especially compared to the US and England.

I guess the reason being WW1 + WW2 are being considered as absolutely horrifying wars, and Napoleon's invasions are seen as ruthless acts that created the imbalanced situation that led to two world wars.

fclaerho2• 5 years ago

"In France, you mostly see him as a caricature nowadays." Certainly not, not for 60% of French people at least, if you check the polling regarding the last ceremony.

"Napoleon's invasions […] created the imbalanced situation that led to two world wars." what? That's quite a stretch you're proposing here.

ithinkso• 5 years ago

With the exception of Poland I think but we might be a bit biased due to the whole independence thing (however brief it was). People aren't disillusioned and the shit that happened isn't necessarily ignored but the overall sentiment is very positive I would say. He's even explicitly mentioned in the second verse of our anthem

dustypotato• 5 years ago

While he certainly did invade and conquer, France was at war with the major powers of Europe before he came to power. The revolutionary government declared the Rhine as the natural border of France, laying claim to parts west of it. Also, the other powers didn't want the revolutionary ideals spreading. I find this ironic since Britain at that time had a more democratic system than others and still it opposed revolutionary ideals.

fclaerho2• 5 years ago

There are remembrance ceremonies periodically. The last one occurred this year, with a speech from the president. The problem is that, as everywhere else, the extreme-left is generating controversies and trying to re-interpret History with today standards and pressuring everyone to not celebrate people like him.

eru• 5 years ago

It's not just the extreme left that doesn't like Napoleon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdM3ID4m38U

relevant part starts at about 16 minutes, all lindy really does is point out how absolutely horrible Napoleon actually was.

mytailorisrich4• 5 years ago

Napoleon is as much responsible for creating modern France as the French Revolution is.

He put a end to the Revolution's chaos, defeated European attempts to invade France and destroy the Revolution, rewrote French law from scratch, and reorganised the country.

There is a tendency for self-flagellation these days but it is right for him to be celebrated in France.

Ignoring this recent self-flagellation trend, I think the main division in France is political. Napoleon is of course The Empire, authoritarianism and militarism and he is often not liked especially on the left. The main conflict here is for the Republic to celebrate someone who ended the republican system, but IMHO it is perfectly possible to celebrate someone as a country for their achievements and overall impact even if they did not subscribe to the current political system, not least when they were instrumental in creating the modern country, as mentioned.

Perhaps what as also changed is that patriotism is being seen more and more suspiciously.

WastingMyTime895• 5 years ago

He put a end to the Revolution's chaos, defeated European attempts to invade France and destroy the Revolution, rewrote French law from scratch, and reorganised the country.

That he certainly did not.

The uniformisation of French laws had been started two centuries before the Revolution but the French kings didn't have the power to modify civil laws. As soon as the revolutionaries took it, Cambacérès started petitioning for the promulgation of an unique code based on a merger of the Coutume de Paris and the written laws of the South. It took close to a decade to finalize the text and reach somewhat of a consensus but by the time Napoleon took power the whole thing was done. Apart from promulgating the code, he had very little to do with it.

He also didn't stop attempt to destroy the revolution. He did that by himself. Did you miss the part where he had himself crown emperor and how it's defeat was followed by the restauration.

I don't understand why some people keep crediting Bonaparte with what is mostly work done by the first constitutional assembly.

Bayart3• 5 years ago

It's ambivalent and fairly neutral. Analysis of his career is colder and mostly focussed on technical aspects rather than heroism. People are more excitable about Napoléon abroad.

Cantbekhan• 5 years ago

Napoleon had a tremendous impact on many western nations long after his defeat. The most notable and positive example in my opinion is the base of the modern civil law system still in effect today in many of the conquered countries. The same codes based on the Napoleonic code were also exported to the colonies of those countries and many others which then retained it after their independence. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code. And IMHO the civil law is a much better legal system than the common law used in most of the US, the UK and Australia among others. This goes to show that it's never binary and even the worst tyrants and dictators also sometimes achieve good positive things. This is probably valid for all of them.

woodpanel4• 5 years ago

Two of the worst characteristics of Napoleon were

a) his discontempt for Germany (which he successfully embarked on, considering him dissolving the German Empire)

b) his utilization of enlightenment policies to subdue countries, creating a narrative in which Napleonese France IS the enlightenemnt (which is of course BS)

In the case of Germany, apart from forcibly recruting citizens into his army where they mainly served as cannon fodder, apart from the pillaging of french troops, apart from massive increases in taxations for the poor that were already hit due to unemployment caused by his continental system, apart from churches being repurposed as horsestalls as a form of practical joke, the worst thing he did, was that he utilized things like the code-civil and other enlightenment reforms to turn a new tiny middle-class into loyalists, stirring up division Germany still hasn't really freed itself from.

His policy was the equivalent of when today's West is forcibly bringing "democracy" to Iraq/Afghanistan/..., instead of letting it arise organically, which in turn taints the whole franchise, the whole idea, as un-Arabic, un-Muslim etc.

Reforming the law to enable anyone to work in any job would have happened likely anyways, but Napoleon propagandizing it into his idea, into a french idea, he effectivly laid the groundwork for the discontempt in Germany for enlightenment ideas till this day. And yes, this includes post-napoleonese German anti-semitism.

johncoltrane2• 5 years ago

We don't "celebrate" Napoleon or any other historical figure at all. They are mentioned in history books and promptly forgotten after graduation, they have statues that are just part of the scenery, they have streets and high schools named after them that no one give a second thought about, they are talked about for a couple of days when the media figure it is the Nth anniversary of this or that, etc.

They are just part of a background the layman doesn't cares about.

So titles like "Why don't the French celebrate Lafayette?" tell more about the author/editor of the article than about its subject.

woodpanel4• 5 years ago

We don't "celebrate" Napoleon

Huh, I must have visited a different country then. It seems there isn't a single Bridge, Column or otherwise important building in Paris that hasn't a pompous "N" mounted onto it.

masswerk• 5 years ago

During the reign of Napléon III France was celebrating Napoléon's birthday as a national holiday, “Saint Napoléon”. However, this was already in decline in the 1860s, as Napoléon's role was eventually re-evaluated, and the centenary in 1869 (which coincided with a severe crisis of the authority of Napoléon III) wasn't celebrated nationally any more. As this was also soon followed by the end of the Second Empire (as an effect of the Franco-Prussian war), this holiday inherently connected with the dynastic ambitions of Napoléon III wasn't any more.

Edit: If interested in the subject, there's a thesis (in French) by Émile Kern, “Représentations et images contrastées de Napoléon dans les commémorations : de 1869 à 2009”, Université de Montpellier 3, 2011; http://www.theses.fr/2011MON30093

billfruit2• 5 years ago

I have been trying to read more about the events and personalities involved in the French Revolution and its aftermath. This is a reading list of what I'm trying to follow (in no defined order):

1. A tale of two cities: Dickens.

2. Gods are thirsty: Anatole France.

3. Talleyrand: Duff Cooper.

4. Memories from beyond the Grave: Chateaubriand

5. History of French Revolution: Carlyle.

watwut2• 5 years ago

They are good, but keep in mind that some of them are fiction. They are not historical account.

Another great one is "The Old Regime and the Revolution" by Alexis de Tocqueville. It is about how France worked before the revolution and it explains a lot in a lot of ways.

mejutoco• 5 years ago

The count of Montecristo is also set in this period. You might enjoy it.

billfruit2• 5 years ago

Charterhouse of Parma, War and Peace, and Les Miserables as well.

slim3• 5 years ago

https://archive.is/zUHrr

ognarb• 5 years ago

He also created a coup d'état, conquered most of Europe and installed his families as new king of the conquered countries. He also reinstated slavery.

In that context, we should probably also thanks Hitler for the Autobahn.

slim3• 5 years ago

Because he was a Freemason. And Freemasons don't like exposure

Bayart3• 5 years ago

The Revolution had tons of Freemasons. That's completely besides the point.

slim3• 5 years ago

None of them is celebrated, to my knowledge

raxxorrax2• 5 years ago

I know some free masons. Some have silly rituals and get made fun of from time to time. Yet, they are committed to bring about education and that hasn't changed through the centuries.

Far less cringe worthy than many student fraternities and I wouldn't say they hide themselves too much, this is mostly based on rumors.

Secret societies like the Illuminati are mostly less successful than people believe. I mean everyone knows them by now...

sam_lowry_9• 5 years ago

Don't forget that he fought in the French civil war on the loosing side. History does not like loosers.

OTOH, they do celebrate Lafayette in Vendée where Lafayette is considered a regional hero. The famous theme park Puy du Fou has one of its attractions dedicated to Lafayette.

ptidhomme2• 5 years ago

That's because the Puy du Fou has a different take on French history than most mainstream views in France. Which I find refreshing.

As a side note, I must say the park is a genuine wonder in itself, and I highly recommend it to anyone if you can go there.

bussiere4• 5 years ago

It's not a differente take it's a wrong take on french hisory :

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puy_du_Fou#Une_vision_orient%C...

And a wrong take that try to push a political agenda.

It's a fun park but don't take history lesson history here are more that political oriented legends.

They are like history channel ...

sam_lowry_9• 5 years ago

Indeed. Puy du Fou is a refresher from the usual Asterix/Efteling/Disney attractions parks.

One thing I noted though is that one has to know French history and French culture to fully appreciate. The scene about the travel of Laperouse is told by the captain of the 2nd ship. Figures around the pond speak in the voice of Depardieu. The whole Lafayette story is a major blow to the official teaching of the French Revolution, you have to know the extent at which the same teaching of history is imposed on everyone to fully appreciate the courage of the park administration.

flixic• 5 years ago

Tiny tip: loose is opposite of tight, to lose is opposite of to win.

Youden• 5 years ago

Loose is also a verb meaning to release something or let it loose.

lm284694• 5 years ago

in Vendée where Lafayette is considered a regional hero
famous theme park Puy du Fou

For people unfamiliar with this: Puy du Fou was created by a nationalistic politician born in the region. This politician, Philippe de Villiers, is getting closer and closer to the french far right, he's anti islam, anti europe, anti migrants, and go as far as to say that the French government is on its way to give away part of its territory for it to be ruled under sharia.

I have no experience with the park but from the articles I found I wouldn't be surprised if every "historical" events presented there are heavily interpreted/romanticised

joachim4• 5 years ago

They are heavily politicized in their presentation of France history (for example one of the spectacle is about the christians persecutions in Rome, where the christians are the good guide, and the romans are the bad guys).

Another famous recent event is that they bought one of Joan of Arc ring, but it was mainly a nationalist move more than something important to preserve (Joan of Arc is from the east / north part of France) (for more infos: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneaux_de_Jeanne_d%27Arc).

Overall, the parc is an entertainment place as much as a political tool, but not a lot of people are aware of it, and most of them are eating their propagande like the true story of France (due to lack of education on history mainly).

poulpy123• 5 years ago

Well "getting closer" isn't really true since he is part of the French far right since 1994

ekabod3• 5 years ago

Why do you feel the need to tell people that the park creator is a nationalist? It is not a crime and the park is about history and entertainment for families and kids on school trip.

jokoon2• 5 years ago

History does not like loosers.

Historians don't care.

Governments and politicians do.

sam_lowry_9• 5 years ago

Historians feed off governments. This is especially true in France.

Mulpze15• 5 years ago

If you are interested in Lafayette and eager to travel, I suggest you visit the beautiful town of Le Puy-en-Velay in the Massif Central where his statue is proudly erected. Off the beaten path for most, but rewarding for the others.

Then go to tiny village Chavaniac where you'll visit the castle he lived in for a while, that carries his name.

jmnicolas• 5 years ago

And if you feel in shape and have enough time, Le Puy-en-Velay is the main French start for the Camino de Santiago.

Felger• 5 years ago

Go see the Forteress of Polignac, 10 km north from le Puy-en-Velay. Nice castle with a uncommon setup atop a hill and high walls. Rich history.

Narann• 5 years ago

France, an ancient, highly centralized country with a strong taste for ritual, seems to require a visible symbol of order at its center.

It's kinda cliché, IMHO. France (and many European nations) has been build around the belief that centralized power help to ensure political stability. As soon they are no more/less centralized power, every region starts to organize itself and territorial conflicts of interest emerges.

It's not about the power to be visible, more than being effective.

MomoXenosaga2• 5 years ago

Are there successful nation states that do not rely on centralized power? Take the US for example after 1865 it was made clear that the US has one capital, one leader and one government.

rguillebert• 5 years ago

The book "Why nations fail" makes the claim that centralized institutions (among other things) are necessary for building a prosperous country. It's a very interesting read.

317070• 5 years ago

Belgium and Switzerland come to mind? Two highly federalised states.

willcipriano• 5 years ago

From my read of history, empires start off more like republics and then centralize over time until they collapse under their own weight. It was said best by Aristotle: "Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotisms."

cafard2• 5 years ago

In his memoirs (largely about 1848 and its aftermath), de Tocqeville said that the French could create anything but a free government and destroy anything but centralization. The first half seems to have been disproven.

selimthegrim• 5 years ago

Was thus when he was writing about Algeria?

neonate• 5 years ago

https://archive.is/zUHrr

908B64B197• 5 years ago

I lack a lot of cultural context here but, France has a long history. You can trace the current country to the first Frankish kingdoms in 496. And that's excluding the Roman period and the Gaul before it.

That's a lot of historical figures over centuries of existence. At some point, you can't celebrate them all.

Why don’t the French celebrate Lafayette?

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