U.S. Officials in Germany Hit by Havana Syndrome

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-in-germany-hit-by-havana-syndrome-11629279001

by erehweb • 5 years ago

63 95 5 years ago

rbanffy2• 5 years ago

Should we still call it Havana Syndrome?

fouric2• 5 years ago

There's always the alternative "Anomalous Health Incident" terminology that the federal government uses, although it's an incredibly vague term that makes me feel uncomfortable using.

NyxWulf• 5 years ago

We could propose Anomalous Sonic Stimulated HeadAche Trauma

shadowgovt4• 5 years ago

Probably not.

Geopolitical naming of maladies carries unnecessary political baggage that can be unhelpful in root-causing a disease.

(Perhaps more importantly, they often prove historically inaccurate in hindsight. Spanish Flu didn't originate in Spain; Spain was the first place where news was able to report on the disease because they weren't under a wartime press embargo).

jessaustin5• 5 years ago

Yeah it should have been called Kansas Flu. That pandemic was one of the more disastrous aspects of the multifaceted disaster that was Wilson's dishonest entry into WWI.

vmception• 5 years ago

no, it is indefensible shorthand given how polarizing Wuhan labeling was

pentae• 5 years ago

I'm wondering why if this continues happening the US consulates have not put in some kind of detection hardware? Seems like an easy solution

shadowgovt4• 5 years ago

We're still at the phase of this story where we don't actually know what's going on. WSJ is reporting on it like it's understood, but the conclusion of NASEM (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-diplomats-illnesses-likely-...) was that more research is needed.

Hard to detect "directed, pulsed radio frequency (RF) energy" when you have no idea what you're actually looking for. If you go looking at the bulk of the electromagnetic spectrum for correlators to a vague symptom list, you'll definitely find them but be no closer to explaining causality (or finding culprits).

KingOfCoders5• 5 years ago

"Hard to detect "directed, pulsed radio frequency (RF) energy" when you have no idea what you're actually looking for"

Hard to believe, any source for this?

kube-system• 5 years ago

Do we know that they haven't?

nradov• 5 years ago

No one knows exactly what to detect. Is it chemical? Sonic? Electromagnetic?

blahblahblogger• 5 years ago

right ... wouldn't they need to at some point start narrowing things down?

zug_zug• 5 years ago

Why not put a sensor for all of the above? Seems like the obvious thing to do for information safety reasons, as well as health reasons.

The only situation where it wouldn't make sense to do this is if we already knew the cause, and it was something we had built.

petre• 5 years ago

It's suspected to be microwaves so maybe a SDR that sweeps all wavebands with antennas placed aroud windows should be a good starting point?

fouric2• 5 years ago

I think that, between the earlier articles about this effect happening in the mainland US[1] and now Germany, it's safe to say that at this point the hypothesis that this is some benign phenomenon (e.g. cricket noises[2]) has been sufficiently debunked.

Given that, the current interesting question is whether this effect is unintentional (e.g. two newly-deployed RF technologies that interact with each other in a harmful way) or whether it's flat-out a weapon. Given that almost exclusively US officials have acquired these symptoms, I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/mysterious-health-in... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837561

shadowgovt4• 5 years ago

I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon.

Correlation doesn't imply causation, but when it does the simplest correlation is often pointing at the correct causation.

Could be a weapon... Or, could be two technologies the US regularly deploys to its own bases interfering with each other (perhaps some standard-issue State Department tech and some classified self-snooping tech the NSA or CIA deploys to monitor its own agents who are considered sensitive national assets?). That would explain why the incidents happen only on US bases and not, say, to any other adversaries of the Russian or Chinese state.

BitwiseFool2• 5 years ago

It could possibly be a modern "Folie à deux" or shared delusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux

Essentially, for whatever reason, people working in the Cuban embassy started feeling ill with mysterious symptoms and that caught on. It could have originally been something like sick building syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome

But then people latched on to the idea that it was caused by some kind of sonic device or hitherto unknown weapon targeting embassies. Someone starts to feel sick? Oh my god, it could be Havana Syndrome! Now that you mention it Becky, I'm starting to feel queasy too...

A parallel is how the notion that MSG causes headaches caught on. One doctor suggested that there is a link between eating Chinese restaurant food flavored with MSG and headaches. But "Thirty years after the Chinese restaurant syndrome was debunked, stigmas about MSG persist." People who believe this will legitimately start to feel sick if you feed them MSG, even if you didn't actually put any MSG in and lie that you did.

Now I'm not saying this is what is actually happening because we just don't know yet.

Edit: And, most of the symptoms, headache, nausea, anxiety, insomnia, are all really common side effects and can be caused by just about anything.

jamil7• 5 years ago

I don't understand why this comment is downvoted, this is far more believable than a magic space ray that... makes people a little nauseous?

meowface6• 5 years ago

This was the leading hypothesis for years, including for me, but even about a year ago I was considering betting a lot of money on a prediction market that it's indeed an intentional deployment of a weapon. I've found myself arguing the case with people on HN on several occasions, in part because I'm extremely conspiracy theory-skeptical in general and felt like people were wrong to dismiss this as any other silly conspiracy theory circulating around.

One factor worth noting is the consistency of the self-reports of the phenomenon and the symptoms, subsequent brain scans showing concussive injury, and medical diagnoses of brain damage.

At this point I'd definitely bet if I could find a way to. I'd say I'm about 85% confident it's a weapon. And unless there's an elaborate false flag or psyop going on, then if the claims in this article are true, it seems Russian intelligence officers are likely the ones responsible for at least some of the attacks: https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-micro... (Oct 2020).

simonbyrne• 5 years ago

But then people latched on to the idea that it was caused by some kind of sonic device or hitherto unknown weapon targeting embassies.

Possibly prompted by historical precedent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Signal

Cass• 5 years ago

The article mentions that one patient has an unexplained brain injury comparable to that caused by the shockwave of an explosion. I'm sure the embassy isn't going to release this info to the press, but I'd really like to know what kind of injury we're talking about here, whether it's something that could just occur spontaneously (I mean, if we're talking intracerebral bleeding, that does just happen sometimes), and if it's been tested for or seen in anyone else complaining of these symptoms.

There's a HUGE difference between "some people are getting unexplained headaches and brainfog" (yeah, so are half my patients right now, during this time of unprecedented stress) and "some people are getting unexplained brain bleeds" (YIKES)

luckylion• 5 years ago

Given that almost exclusively US officials have acquired these symptoms, I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon.

Only US officials work in US military/intelligence (which all embassies are to an extent) installations. If it's something they deployed, e.g. some new surveillance or security tech, it makes sense that it would affect people working there. And the US intelligence community would probably rather have a few people get inconvenienced than not use their toys.

ganoushoreilly2• 5 years ago

Not entirely true, many embassies and facilities hire local nationals to work and operate within the grounds.

twic4• 5 years ago

Note that many of the 'attacks' happened when staff were at home, not in the embassies. So this would have to be some sort of spytech deployed in diplomats' homes.

rory_isAdonk2• 5 years ago

any chance the NSA/CIA is simply using a surveillance tool which causes this to those near by?

I mean I would guess this is self inflicted.

bradford• 5 years ago

Were that the case, I think the NSA/CIA would have been able to figure it out.

[I'm a bit baffled by the comments that are simply assuming incompetence from these organizations.]

twic4• 5 years ago

The mostly likely explanation now is mass psychogenic illness. The Russians have clearly obtained the technology from ravelry.com.

spywaregorilla8• 5 years ago

How exactly do you justify this? If mass psychogenic illnesses were so easy to instantiate, they would be extremely common. That's just not how the world works.

hellbannedguy• 5 years ago

Psychogenic illness, and The Placebo Effect, should be mandatory in every high school biology class.

spywaregorilla8• 5 years ago

I think a large part of his has been people misattributing their real illness to a harmless sound which was actually there, however. Which has made the whole thing a big mess with confusion around "sonic" weaponry.

SpicyLemonZest• 5 years ago

From the 1950s to the 1990s or so, it was well-known that mind control was a real thing. If someone got hold of you, they could literally go into your brain and program you to think whatever they wanted, and unless a "deprogrammer" turned you back you'd be in their thrall forever. An American of the 1980s would have no trouble listing off examples of people who've been successfully mind controlled in this way: Patty Hearst, the Manson family, the Peoples Temple...

I think this has to be seen in that light. There's something happening, and we should investigate it, but that's no guarantee it's at all like what we're thinking.

ashildr3• 5 years ago

They may perceive themselves differently, but I don’t think US diplomats are very useful targets for a mysterious weapon.

dotcommand• 5 years ago

At this point, it's either mass hysteria, a weapon of some kind or something common within this group. Are these officials forced to carry some kind of equipment that can cause this? Were they required to get some shots/drugs, implants or training that causes mental/auditory/etc issues? It's also remotely possible it's just another ploy to foster more fear in population.

It is odd that it apparently affects a particular specialized group of people and that they would make this public without figuring things out first.

morpheuskafka• 5 years ago

It seems the only way it could not be a weapon is if the unintentional side effect was coming from some other kind of device (ex. surveillance) that is also specifically targeted at U.S. diplomats.

Surveillance of diplomatic missions does tend to use cutting edge technologies, so that's not entirely improbable, but if harming people wasn't the goal then it seems they would be concerned about it drawing attention to their technique.

literallyaduck• 5 years ago

Would lead paint help?

https://www.yshield.com/en/

vpeters25• 5 years ago

Probably blankets embedded with a conductive metal mesh in a pattern designed to block microwaves could be issued to all US personnel in foreign countries.

ganoushoreilly2• 5 years ago

I think the main reason traditional faraday cage style tech isn't deployed is the missions of these facilities. It's not just about blocking signals from the outside, you may be limiting or mitigating collection equipment or even broadcast equipment. I will say, anyone that's worked with portable broadcast / collection equipment (microwave or sat) are given clear directions to watch where you walk and no "cross the beams" because of various side effects to include sterility.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it's some weird counter effect from multiple systems internally that have been deployed at these sites.

sonicggg4• 5 years ago

Why do you guys insist on posting paywalled links here? Is it too much of an intellectual effort to post the outline link for this article, like I am doing now? https://outline.com/tprV7Z

twic4• 5 years ago

The link to the original site is at least canonical. The link to the original site is at least canonical. Should OP have posted your link, or https://archive.is/JeJDP?

MattGaiser3• 5 years ago

Disagree. We should go with the original source as the article might be updated. Not sure if Outline automatically updates, but archive sites would not and they seem to be the more common paywall bypass here.

nimbius2• 5 years ago

nausea, severe headaches, ear pain, fatigue, insomnia and sluggishness

all these symptoms are virtually indistinguishable from any meal at The Cheesecake Factory, so call me skeptical. Its also an attack that cannot be detected by the worlds most sophisticated military, so, occhams razor.. the question im interested in hearing the answer to:

can you retire with full pension early from civil service in the embassy if you can prove a medical affliction or disability.

also worth noting the research on the matter isnt exactly concrete. no peer reviewed studies exist to even corroborate an attack at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome#Studies_regard...

spywaregorilla8• 5 years ago

Your occhams razor is that a large number of people are collectively faking symptoms to get a few years out on pension? IS this satire?

nimbius2• 5 years ago

The number of American citizens experiencing symptoms was 26 as of June 2018.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba-usa-diplomats/us-say...

so uh, yeah, im guessing there are a few dozen people who might want out.

toxik2• 5 years ago

Why is this so surprising? This is something people have been doing for decades in most welfare societies.

sonicggg4• 5 years ago

I'm really disgusted by how some ignorant folks are so quick to gaslight chronically ill people.

Russian agents have allegedly been using directed energy microwave weapons for years. That's a known fact.

elliottkember• 5 years ago

The “allegedly” and “known fact” in your last two sentences are wildly dissonant. It’s a known fact that this is alleged?

williamscales• 5 years ago

They are also indistinguishable from the symptoms of overworking for months. Or severe depression for that matter. I think it bears investigating but I agree with you that there is such a simple answer of pyschosomatic illness here that we must have some real proof. Otherwise I worry that all this hyperbolic coverage will do is increase the number of people experiencing symptoms.

MattGaiser3• 5 years ago

They have found evidence of brain damage with MRIs. Can't fake that.

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2019/july/ad...

hugh4life• 5 years ago

I'm still very skeptical but humor me,

Given these anecdotes from Wikipedia:

"As the officer pulled his car into a busy intersection, he suddenly felt as though his head were going to explode. His two-year-old son, in a car seat in the back, started screaming. As the officer sped out of the intersection, the pressure in his head ceased, and his son went quiet."

"In 2019, a White House official reported experiencing debilitating symptoms while walking her dog in a Virginia suburb of Washington; the incident was publicly reported in 2020."

The most common explanation is microwave radiation. So, how large of a device do people think it would take to induce these symptoms?

Speculate, what would this device look like?

---- EDIT: China used microwave weapons against India in a border dispute. How similar are the symptoms?

https://eurasiantimes.com/has-india-finally-acknowledged-tha...

dougmwne• 5 years ago

This always smells like the US Govt knows exactly what's going on, but it's too sensitive to come right out and say "The Chinese spy agency is microwaving our brains, but we've been microwaving them back". Better to drop a bit of news and hint at it to put some political pressure, but not get the US population upset enough to demand sanctions or something economically disastrous.

ithinkso2• 5 years ago

What I don't understand about discussions in this thread is that RF is treated as almost magic and 'new technology' can make it do anything. Electromagnetism is virtually perfectly understood and there is nothing more it can do, definitely not responsible for nausea ffs without burning you from the outside... (unless it's ionizing radiation at the other side o the spectrum from RF but radiation sickness is also well understood and would be super hard to miss). Not to mention sound that apparently is being heard...

If someone really is targeting US diplomats worldwide, with those sets of symptoms, why does it have to be a sci-fi tech instead of, old as time itself, plain poisoning

MattGaiser3• 5 years ago

Electromagnetism is understood, but how about the brain?

ithinkso2• 5 years ago

There is a skin and a skull in front of it. Of course you can fry someone with microwaves, magnetrons are all sort of dangerous at high enough power (lasers are too) but what they are not is selective and a cause of weird brain effects

And also, the only thing you need to detect it is a very simple antenna, you can't hide radiation

Max-20• 5 years ago

Reading the comments here makes me think nobody even bothered to read the article.

Right in the first half they mentioned that there was a physical representation of the illness in the brain tissue when they did a MRI scan.

This is NOT a shared paranoia, because you can't see them on a brain scan. This seems like a very real and frightening disease.

bjourne4• 5 years ago

This is a reference to the Princeton study. The authors claimed to have found "brain abnormalities" by inspecting MRIs of the diplomats. Other neuroscientists criticized the study. The MRIs themselves are classified and has not been released to the public.

ashildr3• 5 years ago

If Russia had a secret sci-fi weapon like this it would be very stupid (and completely useless) to waste it on US-diplomats.

If it exists, it is likely is an unintended side effect. Either something is more toxic than expected, more contaminated, or more physically damaging to people. Or the effect is quite common if one just looks closely at (a specific group of) people, because „healthy“ just means „not properly diagnosed, yet“.

gecko• 5 years ago

If Russia had a secret sci-fi weapon like this it would be very stupid (and completely useless) to waste it on US-diplomats.

...like...you are aware the Russians used polonium traceable to their reactors to publicly poison individuals they disagreed with, right? Using special stuff to explicitly trace back to them is kind of their MO.

KingOfCoders5• 5 years ago

What I do not understand, if this is a weapon, how can a country which deploys the most sensitive sensors in their embassies to listen in on their host country (sound, electromagnetic, gravitonic, ...), not detect this?

And if it is radiation/waves that there are no sensors for, why aren't new sensors installed? So the CIA scrambles around and installs a myriad of new sensors in every embessay, and nothing after years?

The opponent has not only some new kind of weapon, but a new kind of energy or rays that are not gravitational, electromagnetic or sonic? So they have a Nobel prize winning physics discovery and use it to make people in embassies sick?

KingOfCoders5• 5 years ago

"At least two [!] U.S. officials stationed in Germany sought [...]and some [!] victims were left unable to work".

I'm not a native speaker, but two officials had troubles, and "some" of these two are unable to work.

"“There is no evidence about what happened to us, but it is striking that some of us had worked on Russia-related issues,” said the worker, who declined to be named."

So the weapon also knows on what people work on?

Or should we assume a perfect infiltration of the US intelligence aparatus by the Russians so they know what person is working on what? Or who is sitting where?

But not only that, but

"In some cases, the symptoms have persisted after the relocation, leading security services to believe that the people targeted have been tracked down to their new residence."

And the weapon can detect nationality (if not targetting appartments but the embassy), as

"Some 20 American officials in Austria have reported the mysterious symptoms—the largest number since Cuba" and no Austrian is affected.

I do think this is a really badly written article.

dragonwriter• 5 years ago

two officials had troubles

No, multiple officials had troubles, and the number (beyond that it is multiple) is not being released because they were (in part) in sensitive intelligence work and revealing the number affected would itself be providing valuable information to hostile intelligence actors.

So the weapon also knows on what people work on?

More likely, the people using the weapon do, or know the particular specific locations where that work is done, or know what work someone is doing and are targeting others by association.

Or should we assume a perfect infiltration of the US intelligence aparatus by the Russians so they know what person is working on what?

It wouldn't be unprecedented for the Russians (or, at least, their Soviet predecessors) to have high-level penetration of major Western (counter/)intelligence services. Ames and Hanssen in the US, the Cambridge ring in the UK, etc.

simonblack• 5 years ago

Workplace injuries. Common denominator is that (almost) all of the victims are US Officials. The countries where this 'problem' is happening are both allied and adversary nations, (even happened in Washington DC).

Something at their job is doing this.

U.S. Officials in Germany Hit by Havana Syndrome

Related Stories