Overview of Early Electric Cars

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/overview-of-early-electric-cars.html

by rsj_hn • 5 years ago

65 100 5 years ago

clouddrover10• 5 years ago

The problem is the same as its always been: the batteries still aren't quite good enough. Batteries still need to become cheaper, safer, more energy dense, more durable, and faster charging.

But the good news is that batteries are improving year by year. Probably by 2025 there will be large scale production of EVs with solid-state batteries with better energy density, safety, and charging speeds.

It'll also be good to see cars start to make use of ultra-capacitor buffers to more efficiently recuperate braking energy. The more you can protect the main battery with a capacitor buffer, the longer it'll last.

Robotbeat10• 5 years ago

I think they are. Most new electric cars are like at least 250 mile range, and Tesla's flagship Model S starts out at over 400 mile range (and their 520 mile range version will be available in about 12 months... that's more than most conventionally fueled cars). Charge speed is fine (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations) and safety is overall superior. Battery life is also not a concern as the battery in these vehicles will outlast the car.

I just don't think people realize that batteries actually are plenty good enough now. No breakthrough is needed. It's about driving down the cost to as low as possible and scaling out charging standards and networks. And ultimately, just banning new conventional cars outright (starting out by requiring all new vehicles to have a plug in a few years).

rsj_hn5• 5 years ago

(you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations)

Curious how you are calculating this. I usually spend about 60-120 seconds refilling my tank once every 300 miles. (15 gallon tank, about 30 mpg).

Because gas stations are everywhere, I never have to plan a specific route based on availability of gas stations, or use an app to find where the stations are, or even think about how much gas I have, as I know there is a station on the way to wherever I am going, and all I need to do is pull over. I even have the luxury of refusing to stop at gas stations on the left side of the road because there will be another station a block down on the right side.

But with electric you have to go out of your way to find a charging station and it takes longer than 100 seconds to fully charge your car. So how can it be less time overall?

clouddrover10• 5 years ago

No, you need to think about what it means when all cars are electric. Current charging speeds lead to long queues at chargers like this:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-...

No car on the road at the moment is capable of making full use of 350 kW CCS chargers (the Porsche Taycan comes closest at 270 kW). Ideally you'd want a flat charging curve at 350 kW to allow for more cars to be served by each charger.

If you had a flat charging curve at 350 kW it would take about 13 minutes to go from 0 to 80% state of charge on a 100 kWh battery. Still slower than fueling an ICE car and still not full battery capacity, but you should be able handle 4 cars per hour per charger.

literallycancer2• 5 years ago

Let's see. A 2011 diesel sedan can go about 900km before refueling. There's maybe 2 charging stations within 50 km of my central European location. So, the best experience I can have with an electric car right now is to spend a 100k on a car that doesn't work unless I live next to the charging station, or takes a day to charge. Oh and the car that I already have is not designed by Californians, so there's no stupid shit like a trunk full of snow every time you open it.

I think I'll still go with the autism causing, dinosaur burning dumpster fire on wheels for now.

mettamage• 5 years ago

Silly question: to what extent can you extend the range of a car by adding solar panels on the roof in cloudy conditions? If that adds range of 10% extra, then why not do it?

I figured they thought about this a long time ago, so I'm just wondering.

TylerE2• 5 years ago

Not nearly enough. Solar panels, under absolutely perfect conditions (perfect angling, no clouds, etc) produce about 15w per square foot. Even if you covered every bit of the upward facing surfaces, including the hood, with panels, that's going to peak at about 1kw of input - and since you'll be off axis all the time it'll be less than that.

A Tesla battery pack is 100kw/h. So under perfect conditions you'd need 100 hours of charging to get one charge.

clouddrover10• 5 years ago

It depends how efficient the car is and how efficient the solar panels are.

Here are some examples of solar cars and their solar range estimates:

- Aptera: https://www.aptera.us/never-charge

- Lightyear One: https://lightyear.one/technology

- Sono Motors Sion: https://sonomotors.com/en/solar-integration/

- Toyota Prius experimental prototype: https://newatlas.com/toyota-prius-solar-roof/60461/

- The Hyundai Ioniq 5 has a small panel as an option, but you won't get much range out of it: https://pvbuzz.com/hyundai-ioniq-5-solar-panels/

rsj_hn5• 5 years ago

Honestly I think the issue isn't with batteries or current technology. My lay view is that the technology to make PEVs attractive is already here. What is not here is the eco-system.

* Can you get the car serviced at an independent mechanic or do you have to go to the dealer and pay whatever they decide to charge you? No amount of battery innovation will overcome $1000 bills to replace a door handle. Check out Rich Rebuild's youtube channel for a description of the service costs of keeping a Tesla running out of warranty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM&t=302s

* Is there a large eco-system of after-market parts and third party warranty issuers? This is required to drive repair costs down.

* Do we have good data on the lifetime of critical parts under actual use? This is required for consumers to estimate the operating costs over the life of the vehicle (whether or not they plan on selling it doesn't matter, as they will pay for those operating costs either in depreciation or in paying for repairs themselves)

* Is there a robust country-wide charge network that compete with gas stations?

* Is there a system to quickly get energy when you need it -- e.g. either very fast (10 min) charging or a swap-in battery system to give you a quick 100 miles of range.

These are not issues that require breakthroughs in solid state science. If the batteries don't last long, make it easier to service them or swap them out. If the range isn't so great, create a wider network of chargers. If the parts don't last as long, make them cheaper and easier to service by independent mechanics. Force a right to repair and diagnose for PEVs as we have for gas powered cars.

IOW, rather than waiting on breakthroughs in materials science, infrastructure upgrades can solve these issues, but lack of infrastructure can't be solved by breakthroughs in battery life. As long as Tesla is a monopoly provider of parts and service, and as long as the infrastructure isn't there, upping the power to weight ratio of batteries by 30% isn't going to do much to reduce ownership risk to consumers, and PEVs will remain a niche market dominated by wealthy consumers who can bear ownership cost risk better than middle class people.

* And of course, the electric grid needs a massive upgrade.

All of the above is well within the reach of existing tech. Whether it's financially feasible is another question.

geoduck14• 5 years ago

In my opinion, we are trying to solve the "EV range issue" all wrong. We are looking at gas cars, and asking "how can we do the same thing, but with electricity" - and we get a substandard result.

What we SHOULD do is: take a step back and ask "what do we REALLY want to achieve".

We don't really want long range and fast charge. We DO want worry-free power wherever we choose to go. It isn't a novel concept to suggest: inductive charging from the road into the car (as you drive). There are probably other more practical ideas, too, but - and this is critical- you have to start asking the right questions.

TylerE2• 5 years ago

That's insane. Inductive charging is wildly inefficient.

On typical phone chargers efficiency is about 60-70% max..and it goes down with distance.

clouddrover10• 5 years ago

We don't really want long range and fast charge

Yes we do. As the article demonstrates, they were making the same arguments 100 years ago.

Lack of range and charging speed is why electric cars lost out to ICE cars 100 years ago. ICE cars simply took you further, faster (and still do).

jjav• 5 years ago

inductive charging from the road into the car

Society can't (for $REASONS) even get potholes reliably fixed in roads. The probability of something like installing inductive charging on every mile of interstate is effectively zero.

mattlondon2• 5 years ago

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news.

First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small.

Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins.

I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs.

Sigh.

lurkmurk2• 5 years ago

But all of those are still true. I would argue that public transport should replace cars for commute which is most of the "non-niche" usage.

Public transport can't get you anywhere, on your own terms? Sounds familiar.

FullyFunctional3• 5 years ago

They are not simultaneously true. The new Model S Long Range has 412 mi range. All of them can tow, but they are all fairly expensive.

The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.

dvh2• 5 years ago

Perfect EV (for me) was already made. Citroen Ami. $6000, 75km range.

agumonkey2• 5 years ago

You tried it yourself ? (just curious)

donjoe• 5 years ago

Consider living in the early 2000s and replace 'digital camera' vs 'analog camera' with 'dinosaur burning vehicles' vs 'electric vehicles'.

Same discussion, different technology. We all know how it ended ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

amelius• 5 years ago

Exhaust pipe should end in the cabin. Then people will stop their excuses.

ianai2• 5 years ago

Well I drive a 250 mile round trip every week or every other. Range does matter.

mattlondon2• 5 years ago

250 miles is within range of a bunch of different cars - and not just Tesla or luxury brands but also Fords, Skodas, Nissan, and Volkswagens too. At UK speed limits that is like 3.5 continuous hours driven at 70mph (in reality you'd not be doing 70 all the time either)... Most people would take a bio break and maybe a coffee in there somewhere and fast charging for 15 mins at 100+kw can give some decent top-up (e.g. ID.3 does over 500miles per hour charging, so just 5mins while you go take a piss is another 40 miles range added)

https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~a...

zozin• 5 years ago

Those aren't excuses, those are legitimate gripes/complaints. If EVs were that great, they would've beat ICE, especially since they're available at artificially lower prices (subsidies). EV sales are microscopic vs. ICE because EV offerings are inferior.

markvdb• 5 years ago

Both electric and ICE cars are being subsidised:

- direct car purchase subsidies (almost exclusively electric)

- oil production subsidies. You might want to have a look at [0].

- wind and solar electricity production subsidies.

- road infrastructure building and maintenance.

  - Road and fuel taxes do not cover this.

  - Usually higher for the same size electric car because heavier. That could change with battery and charging tech improvements though...

- ...

One could also argue that the following heavyweights should be included:

- oil wars.

- untaxed negative environmental externalities:

  - oil spills

  - CO2 and other harmful gas emissions

  - car tire particles from both  ICE and electric cars ...

[0] http://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/uploads/ported/images/dow... .

bobajeff• 5 years ago

They are still to expensive for me. Also, I get all my cars used.

Outside of that I'm still concerned about the carge time. If I drive out of town to visit my folks and I'm low on gas I can just fill up mid trip no problem. How does that work if it takes an hour (a generous guess based on my phone) to charge?

That said I think the tech is cool and am looking forward to the price coming down.

em-bee• 5 years ago

for an 8 hour trip you might budget an hour lunchbreak anyways. so an hour full recharge time is manageable. if you are almost there already, you won't need a full charge to make it.

Hypx10• 5 years ago

The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel cell cars come around. Nearly all of the criticism of this argument are just a mirror of the arguments against EVs (often made by pro-EV people no less).

So the real misunderstanding isn't with anti-EV people, but with pro-EV denying that there's a future beyond EVs.

dragonwriter• 5 years ago

The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel cell cars come around.

Fuel cell cars are EVs.

Gibbon13• 5 years ago

I think fuel cells window of opportunity is closing fast and they have no traction despite a lot of investment.

EV's weight penalty is going away as battery energy density relentlessly increases. EV's capital expense penalty is also going away due to mass manufacturing improvements.

Charging infrastructure for EV's is basically a last 50 foot problem. Running 30 amp 240 circuit from a breaker box to an external outlet. Compare with the infrastructure needed for the 'hydrogen economy'. Every bit of it needs to be designed and built from scratch. Countries have built stuff like that but it takes decades. We don't have decades.

pedrocr• 5 years ago

Fuel-cell proponents keep claiming they're just around the corner but the issues with them are fundamental. ~3x the total energy use because of all the inefficiencies, and needing an all new infrastructure compared to BEVs where the grid is already everywhere. If FCEVs show up and are actually usable that would be fine but I wouldn't bet on it. They're mostly brought out as an argument for staying on ICEs until, real soon now, we'll finally have them. Maybe for long sea shipping hydrogen will work, but even for trucking the 3x energy input needed is hard to justify.

0xbadcafebee• 5 years ago

Ironic that they were "refueling" electric trucks 100 years ago in 5 minutes. They just drove into a service bay and replaced the battery.

We could make new gas stations rent batteries. Pay a subscription fee and you can drive around with a BP battery and exchange it at any BP. 5 minutes work and a tidy sum to avoid long charging times.

swiley• 5 years ago

Where I live I'm pretty sure all the electrical power comes from natural gas turbines. So EVs pollute just like regular cars.

There's actual transit and the local government has their act together though so I don't drive at all.

rini175• 5 years ago

Do they indeed? The turbines usually have much better exhaust filtration and have higher efficiency than oil refinery+ICE.

Someone• 5 years ago

Those cars were popular (especially with women) because you didn’t have to hand-crank them.

Because of that it has been said that what made gasoline cars take over was the invention of the electric starter for gasoline cars.

agumonkey2• 5 years ago

"On the importance of user interface and ergonomics"

fy202• 5 years ago

Does anyone have any reading material on the history of control systems of electric vehicles? Today most EVs use AC motors with a inverter - a bunch of power transistors - that convert DC to AC, adjusting the frequency as required by the motor (that's what the hum you hear is). However obviously that wasn't the case 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago when electric (trolley) buses were still used in many parts of the world.

VBprogrammer• 5 years ago

Electric trams of the era used essentially large resistors banks and series parallel switching to control power. I expect it was much the same for electric cars, perhaps tapping off or rewiring part of the battery bank. The total amount of power probably made simple on-off control almost practical anyway.

perilunar• 5 years ago

DC motors driven directly from the battery, probably with a large wire-wound rheostat to control the power. Many cars had voltmeters and ammeters for the driver.

Gibbon13• 5 years ago

You use a brushed DC motor where the field coil is in series with multi tap resistor bank controlled by the throttle. That's how it was done with electric golf carts before 1990.

Article on 'speed switches' for old golf carts.

http://www.golfcarcatalog.com/golf-cart-blog/golf-cart-speed...

Wiring diagram.

https://wiringall.com/1984-ezgo-marathon-resistor-wiring-dia...

Basically you use resistors to control the current in the motors field coil. Because the field windings have a lot of turns the current is much lower than in the armature. The armature is connected directly to the battery via a forward reverse switch.

cagenut• 5 years ago

The visuals in this are great. Its interesting to see how the materials and manufacturing complexity of what they could produce aren't far off what wealthy-hobbyest/niche-youtubers can do at home now. It'd be interesting to re-create one of these with modern parts.

Overview of Early Electric Cars

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