Ask HN: How have your recent job application experiences been?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25797429

by v1l • 6 years ago

43 54 6 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

How did you discover the role? Did you apply through the careers site or a job board? Have you even heard back? What level of experience do you have?

Just curious how the year has started for people looking for a new role.

superbcarrot• 6 years ago

Pretty tough so far. Discovery - mostly through job boards. I'm also struggling with some career direction questions and getting a response or scheduling an interview just makes me more anxious instead of helping. Seriously considering putting off the job search for a time when I feel better or I have a better idea about what I want to do.

I've also never personally experienced the tech trope of being in high demand, getting multiple great offers or amazing salary/perks. It seems a lot more uphill than the exepriences that other people share online.

meremortals• 6 years ago

same experience

alexpetralia2• 6 years ago

As someone who has lucked into what I'd call a few good jobs, I would say that finding a job has NEVER been easy for me. It is always a grueling process, full of uncertainty, embarrassment, unrewarded effort and stagnation. From what I've seen, heuristics are heavily relied upon: Ivy League school, brand name companies as prior experience, an online presence. If you don't have this pedigree, life gets much harder. That being said, the only way is through.

akeck• 6 years ago

A possible fourth heuristic: Have a hard-to-attain, but in-demand, combination of technical certifications.

the_only_law4• 6 years ago

I wish I knew how to properly include "non-experience" on my resume. I work on a ton of interesting projects in my spare time, but none of it is really a commericalizable business opportunity, or lare community OSS project useful to many others. In the future, I'd like to apply to jobs more interesting to me, but my current professional career and it's trajectory are just so far from that.

Mc91• 6 years ago

I've also never personally experienced the tech trope of being in high demand, getting multiple great offers or amazing salary/perks. It seems a lot more uphill than the experiences that other people share online.

Interviewing people over the past 25 years, not at FAANG level, but Fortune 1000 down to VC funded startups, I can put people into three buckets. Bucket one is people who clearly don't make the cut. Bucket two is people who seem to have basic skills and knowledge, but when you drill down they don't understand things in depth. Bucket three are people clearly head and shoulders above the other two groups. I would say if interviewing six people, one winds up in bucket one, one winds up in bucket three, and the rest wind up in bucket two.

Bucket two people are interchangeable - you see they have been working for a while, you feel they can handle the simple tickets needed - but what about the more complex ones?

That is one problem with being in this group - of the last six interviews, four others were just like you. Unless they have a recommendation, there is no incentive to hire them. Because out of every six interviews, you usually find someone who can answer almost every question in more depth than the five others.

I think this is the model to have in your head. If your manager's manager has 36 Javascript developers under him, if you're not in the top 6, you're not going to be a "high demand, getting multiple great offers or amazing salary/perks".

Of course the times have an effect on these things to, the bar is lowered and raised. Some people used to make six figures doing stuff in Adobe Flash, and then demand for that dries up and the smart ones have jumped onto the new thing. Things can go both ways at once. Your local job market may have dried up some, but the country might be more willing to hire remote-for-the-next-few-months right now. Although that could have good and bad effects.

The wrong approach is to go on an interview and think you passed or failed some bar. The correct approach is to imagine five people like you, all working your job, four of whom can get basic things done and have basic knowledge. You have to clearly have a better depth of knowledge than all of them, your code samples have to be more up to date and complete and better than theirs, your 30 minute code solutions have to be better etc. You're competing with five other people, four of whom have basic competence, and you have to clearly distinguish yourself from them. That is how you reach the "high demand, getting multiple great offers or amazing salary/perks" category.

throwaway6734• 6 years ago

I think this might be an overly rosy/meritocratic view of hiring. There are other signals like where someone went to school, where someone interned, what they've published, & where they've worked previously that seem to give a boost to candidates.

Some of these things (like schooling & previous jobs) can end up being strong positive feedback loops.

ClumsyPilot• 6 years ago

In my exoerience of interviews, thats only a part of the equasion, and probably less than half of it.

Confidence and presentation matters, ability to 'connect' or emphasise with the inteviwer matters, all questions are asked from a certain, somewhat contrived point of view, and if you don't get what they are looking for you won't do well. I was looking for a job in 2019, and at first did very poorly - I came across as a nervous schoolkid. Over time I got better at interviews just by doing more inteviews and praciting writing code fast in front of other people. None of those skills translate to my daily job in any way.

Kaze404• 6 years ago

If you can afford it, take a break. I was on the same situation, and through therapy I decided that instead of worrying about being unemployed the entire time what I needed was a break. I spent the whole of December doing absolutely nothing but chill with my girlfriend and play video games, and now I'm much more motivated to work on my side projects and look for work again.

the_only_law4• 6 years ago

I've also never personally experienced the tech trope of being in high demand, getting multiple great offers or amazing salary/perks. It seems a lot more uphill than the exepriences that other people share online.

Me neither, but then again I'm not a great programmer and I haven't gotten the opportunity to live in any "hot" markets. I've applied to jobs all over the country in the past though.

pdimitar3• 5 years ago

Don't think of yourself like that. It very well could be that you have interests and focus that haven't been used in any company you worked for. I know I felt miserable in my last job because I had to do so much Kubernetes and Docker and I just wanted to become much better Rust programmer instead.

Also for me (maybe such insights could help you) I just last year finally started discovering what makes me tick and get excited as a programmer and nowadays I am seeking for jobs that scratch those itches. Feels great and I no longer feel like an impostor.

It's kind of like dating really. People can spend a lot of time thinking something is wrong with them while in reality you simply haven't stumbled upon the right people.

Don't underestimate yourself. I am sure you can do a lot and make a true difference.

kylebenzle• 6 years ago

I did a Phd in life sciences at Ohio State about three years ago, found it difficult to find a job in my field where I was living (Columbus Ohio), so spent $17k and 6 months doing an online data science course with New York Data Science Academy.

I have applied to around 100 positions, had three interviews and countless form rejection letters.

I am stuck working remotely or in the city I am in now so understand its been hard but I am just about to the point where I think I will not have a real "career" in my lifetime. I fluctuate between blaming my poor choice in going into the life sciences and the "economy" in general. Between unemployment, food stamps and living at my parents things are going pretty well but have basically given up on finding a meaningful job.

babaganoosh89• 6 years ago

My advice is find a way to relocate to the bay area. For remote jobs you're competing against a ton of professionals that already have experience and moved away for covid. And I doubt data science is the right field you should be targeting, as it's mainly a game for people with PhD's and tough for entry level. Web dev or mobile app dev would be way easier to crack. If you have the drive I'd be making as many apps or web apps as possible to build out your portfolio then there will always be a startup that'd be happy to hire you.

sjg007• 6 years ago

Given your restrictions and background I think Nationwide Children's and/or Ohio State would be good options. Get a bioinformatics job there. Don't give up.

General Mills is looking for bioinformatics types as well if you want to stay in the crop field. They may let you work remote.

Banks/Insurance are also looking for data science / programmer types if you want to go that way.

selimthegrim• 6 years ago

CAS is big in data science there too I hear

RocketSyntax• 6 years ago

Boston is huge in life sciences. Every pharma, lots of biotech, and MIT. MIT's president is really pushing biological engineering.

newbalance• 6 years ago

Recruiters on LinkedIn. Put some work into making your profile clean and concise along with good recommendations from past jobs.

Recruiters will sell you to the client, and help during rate negotiations. Good luck!

bluefirebrand3• 6 years ago

I'd be really interested in hearing why people have downvoted this. Is it just a "LinkedIn bad" mentality or is there something else?

I think this is pretty good advice honestly, I have had some great opportunities pitched to me by recruiters from LinkedIn.

the_only_law4• 6 years ago

I didn't downvote, but people seem to get wildly different recruiter experiences on LinkedIn. I hear of people getting flooded by FAANG recruiters, but I typically only get recruiters for low paying contracts, in places I'd rather not move back to for projects that seem very dysfunctional and either way above or below my professional level.

polka_haunts_us• 6 years ago

I've really only just started recently (Full stack dev, small company, looking for 2nd job), maybe like 15 total apps so far. I have 2 rejects and whole lot of dead silence. I am in one popular company's pipeline though via a linkedin recruiter.

bluepoint• 6 years ago

How do you get in touch with linkedin recruiters? could you share?

vlod3• 6 years ago

I think you can set your profile as 'looking for work' and then wait for the herd of recruiters saying they loved your profile (without actually like reading it) and offering you jobs in technologies that aren't mentioned on your resume.

I assume most of these are bot.

the_resistence• 6 years ago

My clients have been facing job searches 2-3x longer than in past years (mid-level managers, social media, even HR staffers. That's after having had the resume and LinkedIn Profile enhanced to a competitive level.

theshadowknows3• 6 years ago

I keep getting amazing applicants but vastly overqualified for the roles for which I am hiring :(

good luck out there, guys.

amitport4• 6 years ago

They're overqualified and they applied so you at least had a talk with them, voiced your concerns, and given them a chance to explain, right?

Otherwise, that's kind of part of the problem IMO.

jobigoud• 6 years ago

What is the concern with overqualified people exactly? That they be too experienced to do exactly what you ask them to without raising their doubts? That their compensation requirement be too high (but they applied already so they factored it in)? Something else?

Would you consider them if they remove things from their CV to appear less qualified (not illegal, unlike adding imaginary things)? Or is it purely about age?

(Honest questions, as I might be in this position in very few years).

runawaybottle2• 6 years ago

It’s a polite way of saying something. So I’ll give you an example, I know I can’t really date certain people that post prolifically on Instagram (you can extrapolate a little more from what I just said). This is not a hypothetical, I’m genuinely very insecure about whomever I’m with doing it.

Anyways, what’s a polite way to say that to a new person that you just got involved with? You just avoid it to begin with, nothing personal.

Someone in leadership also has needs. They need a team that respects and looks up to them. If they hire someone that clearly has a better resume, this is just not going to work. They can’t tell the recruiter ‘no, I can’t interview this person’ because usually the resume is good enough for a phone screen, so they go through the process.

But the answer is always simple.

theshadowknows3• 6 years ago

I am very constrained in terms of compensation. I work for a large company and the salary bands are defined by the HR, so we don’t much “wiggle room.” I personally don’t have any issue with hiring folks who are overqualified. But when I say overqualified I mean I’m seeing guys with phd in computer science and guys with experience leading large engineering teams that apply for jr roles. These people deserve much more compensation than HR will let us give them. And most of the time comp isn’t given on the job posts (I’m trying to change that) so they don’t find out until they go to the first screen.

spirodonfl• 6 years ago

I'm trying to help the programmer community by gathering up some data. If you have just a few minutes to fill out a form I've made I would appreciate it.

I'm going to take this data and come up with some solutions that benefits everybody with regards to interviewing and hiring. Everything I receive and put together I'll post somewhere for everyone. I have about 24 people so far. I'd love to get to 40 even.

Everything is anonymous.

https://forms.gle/7oZjGpbq7LtmG1xc8

_Note: I believe some of the questions are difficult to understand and I think there's one repeat question. I'm cleaning it up. Even if you could just do the initial questions (a handful of them), it's super helpful_

pdimitar3• 5 years ago

Filled. I felt the questions were really well formulated and relevant. Good job.

bluefirebrand3• 6 years ago

I was let go in the beginning of December so I'm currently highly motivated to find work. Not in desperate times yet but trying to look hard to find something so I don't reach desperate.

My best opportunities so far have come via LinkedIn recruiters, believe it or not. One recruiter got me interviews with two companies before the end of December. I had a code challenge and second interview with one of them, so pretty far in the interview process.

Otherwise looking at job boards like Indeed and LinkedIn listings. Some good opportunities there but I feel like applying is almost a waste of time. I almost never hear back. LinkedIn has a feature where it emails you if your application was even looked at, and I rarely get those emails. I got one outright rejection but otherwise just ignored.

I've also been targetting companies in related work to my previous experience or companies I would be interested in working for but none seem to be hiring.

I don't think there's any single silver bullet answer to job hunting, just have to try every avenue you can to dig up opportunities.

I wish I was better at networking.

PenguinCoder• 6 years ago

15 applications out since Jan 01 (trying to average 1 application a day)

4 interviews with different companies

6 total rejection emails

0 job offers

---

Email in profile...

aprdm• 6 years ago

Not trying to find a job but a lot of recruiters message in Linkedin periodically!

Amazon keeps sending emails to do their automated tests... nothing different.

throwaway1995v2• 6 years ago

No very good, I'm starting to believe that the so-called "shortage of developers" is just companies who have a terrible and frankly broken interview process, over-optimized to detect red flags no matter how small they are(I had been rejected for so many small things like "I didn't talk enough with the interviewers", "Your solution is good but you forgot this small edge case that we didn't mention ", "Your code was fine and it does solve the problem but we wanted to see you going the extra")

leetcode problems are silly but company us them as filters because they don't know any better but on the "Brightside" only take 1 o 2 hours of your life.

take-home challenges are worse because they require more hours to completed and sometimes companies just ghost or reject you without giving you any feedback.

By far the best way to skip all that nonsense has been with referrals, I believe its because if the new guy underperformed they can just blame the one who referred him

the_only_law4• 6 years ago

I'm starting to believe a a large chunk of the shortage is in companies tat aren't the greatest (pay/culture/environment/etc.)

Noumenon72• 6 years ago

Is this board only for Silicon Valley people? I was looking for a cleared job over Christmas on the east coast. Applying internally I got rejections, applying to jobs from recruiters I got interviews and offers about 60% of the time.

I found that five years of experience in "programming" didn't qualify me for jobs that wanted three years of Angular, or Spring, or seven years total. I've still never had an interview with a programming test except my very first one that had FizzBuzz.

suifbwish• 6 years ago

This is when jobs where your boss does not understand your work very well are nice to have on your recent resume . You basically can say you did whatever non far fetched tech thing you want and then describe it to fit with a system or project they would remember you working on so they will think it’s some detail they missed before if asked on a reference follow up and boom... tech experience bank check. Generally the people interviewing you and asking questions are not going to be able to tell the difference betweeen a 3 year veteran and a 5 year veteran. Trying to pretend to know coding when you just learned it is different than pretending to be more experienced than you are in something that you are proficient in to begin with.

qchris• 6 years ago

Start-up idea I don't want to do, but would pay for money for: Applicant Tracking System, but for applicants. Employers pay for posting per usual, but applicants also pay $N/mo. An applicant can submit a small number of applications per week, but get information of where their application is in the process, including if they've been passed over. Employers are forced to use some sort of tiered system for progressing applicants through the process, or won't be allowed on the platform, and same with "posting a role just to see who applies".

Really, it just monetizes some equalization of the power/information assymmetry between applicant and employer. I know I would have paid easily over $100/mo during my last job search to know wtf was happening with each of my applications, even if it was just getting turned down. The black hole is such a waste of resources.

Or, at least, something like that.

repartix• 6 years ago

By show of hands, if I build it this weekend who's willing to pay and how much?

pdimitar3• 5 years ago

I'd pay $40/mo as a start and if I like the platform and if it's successful and it helps me get better (actually, ANY!) feedback after interviews then I'd easily bump that to $80/mo.

vlod3• 6 years ago

Had one today (at a large company) and the interviewer looked/sounded disgusted when I said I had a React app connected to a lone node server connected to the database. (MVP prototype).

They didn't understand why anyone would design a system like that and asked if I had the choice again, would I build it the same way. Their correct answer was micro-services up the wazoo.

I tried to explain that startups don't have budget or desire for massive infrastructure or are generally only interested in building a prototype to validate product market fit. Wasting money on ivory tower systems was a waste.

At no time did they ask if the system supported the workload or even how many users we had. Nope straight to build massively complex infra.

I've forgotten that a lot of s/w engineers who work in the real world/large companies, don't have any idea some of the pg mantras we all chant.

Major red flag. Pass. :/

vlod3• 6 years ago

Also getting completely sick and tired doing hackerrank/leetcode in interviews.

To pass tech interview, I have to do some stupid super-hard hackerrank algorithm test for front-end react positions. wtf?

When he told me to do this and I got annoyed and asked him if they every found the need to design an algo which expired cache, with greater than 10 items, when it's a full moon but not if the number 42 was in a md5 of one of the items.

I asked, isn't this like every other job which is mostly pull from the db, group and minimally process it, push it onto the front page and then spend 80% of the time faffying with vertical-aligning annoying css.

He laughed, but still got me to do the hackerrank algo.

Real motivating to do my own thing. :/

firstfewshells• 6 years ago

I feel this industry has attracted a lot of run-of-the-mill folks whose primary motivation is to get a high paying job at any cost. They're willing to memorize 500+ LeetCode problems in the hope that in one out of 100 interviews their stars will align and they'll be asked questions which they've seen before. More often than not, such folks tend to be crappy engineers and crappier interviewers. Supply is outstripping demand by quite a lot even though the supply is low quality.

mandeepj• 6 years ago

A friend of mine was rejected recently because the application architecture that he shared did not have much complexity :-)

Me: Why they unnecessarily need it to complex?

kaladin_1• 6 years ago

I've even following up one for some months. We had to halt everything for the Christmas holiday.

They gave me a technical interview recently which I felt I aced. Only for me to go read the question again I realised that what I felt was just supposed to manipulate an object could actually be a file that they meant.

I'm yet to hear from them, it's been almost 2wks now. But ever since that realisation my confidence has gone done like crazy.

ATM want to focus on building projects with minimal Algo tests on the side. Gets tiresome solving Leetcode all the time.

mettamage• 6 years ago

FWIW:

Every year I put in my resume at the lowest most junior software engineering role I can find at FAANG, but I never get passed the resume stage despite the fact that I have a bachelor/master in computer science and 2 years of working experience (1 in teaching web dev, 1 in software engineering). I guess it must be that I'm in Europe/European, it's tougher there? I applied for European places too.

I also applied to non-FAANG companies with its own issues (e.g. companies not replying or sending 40 hour code challenges), but it just hurts that I never got a test even by the companies I always wanted to work at when I was still at uni.

Because of that, I lost the whole "you're a new graduate!" thing and it made me directionless. Before Covid I applied for jobs for 1 year and failed. Then I got a job, which was amazing and I was really grateful for. Unfortunately, the founders felt I was too entrepreneurial and didn't stick enough to being just a programmer (note: I programmed 90% of the time) and had a big culture clash because of it, so I left. I can't work at a place where I know that I don't fit in the culture. Now I'm on the hunt again.

The whole process makes me feel inadequate while I know I'm not! I know a thing or two and have even way more to learn, that does not mean I'm inadequate. I was one of the most motivated students at uni, because I love an intellectual challenge and love working for a bright future. While I still cherish my love for intellectual challenges, I am not working for a bright future anymore. I don't see one.

Ask HN: How have your recent job application experiences been?

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