Eagle Cash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Cash

by enjoyyourlife • 6 years ago

137 103 6 years ago

en.wikipedia.org

max_5• 6 years ago

Interesting.

How does this thing solve the "double spend problem" [0].

Without needing network access?

You usually need server communication in electronics payment systems to confirm payment & update account balances. How does Eagle Cash solve this problem?

[0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/doublespending.asp

murderfs2• 6 years ago

You trust the secure element, and if you think that's not enough, you reconcile spending logs and bring the wrath of the federal government on whoever was dumb enough to try.

0x426577617265• 6 years ago

Funds are stored on the card and loaded from a kiosk.

smhg• 6 years ago

Something similar existed in Belgium from 1995 to 2014 for small payments, called Proton [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_(bank_card)

alasdair_• 6 years ago

They rely on the fact that the double spenders are easy to find and punish.

max_5• 6 years ago

So security is maintained using violence? Not technology?

louwhopley• 6 years ago

Similar to many Mastercard/Visa cards. The electronic chip on the card is capable of actually storing the balance and then syncing it back when it reaches a terminal machine that’s connected to the internet.

In my experience, many (most) chip-card based transport systems for busses or trains (eg tap n go) operates in this offline mode where it only syncs when you go to the kiosk to top it up.

It uses cryptographic methods to securely store and update the balance. The chip itself is an embedded processor.

sargun2• 6 years ago

How do you solve the FLP problem?

e.g.

Kiosk->Device: Give me $100

Device: Subtract $100 from myself

Device->Kiosk: Send $100 (fail)

Alternatively, what if this happens the other direction?

lcabral• 6 years ago

This uses the same flow as many transportation cards (which in some countries can also be used to purchase goods). Essentially the card chip holds the debit amount it has (the user makes an initial transaction to load it, debiting the money from a debit/credit card or paying for directly with money) so that every time a transaction occurs, the value in card is altered directly. This system also has the potential of making transactions fully anonymous as no-one needs to know who the holder of the card is or where he spends his money.

KirillPanov2• 6 years ago

The card chips are issued by a trusted central authority and (supposedly) tamperproof.

You can't "run EagleCash" on your laptop; it only runs on card chips issued by the military.

sneak2• 6 years ago

This method allows soldiers to purchase goods and services at U.S. military posts and canteens, without carrying cash, or manage their personal bank accounts while on deployment or in training. The program reduces the amount of American currency required overseas, reduces theft, saves thousands of man-hours in labor, helps reduce the risk of transporting cash in combat environments, and increases security and convenience for service members.

It also prevents soldiers from being able to trade easily with anyone who isn't an authorized card terminal user.

systemvoltage• 6 years ago

It doesn't prevent them from carrying physical cash. They can still do that.

someperson2• 6 years ago

Famously instant ramen noodles is the currency of choice for people in prison: small, uniform and non-perishable.

Just like every other society, in the absence of cash I'm sure soldiers have developed a bartering economy. Likely including to acquire drug/alcohol/tobacco products that may be otherwise banned. You sell me your old Nintendo Switch and I'll use my EagleCash card to buy you 100 packs of instant ramen at company store [1] prices.

Also, if anybody has a somewhat-trusted human network, it's possible to do Hawala [2] transfers across different financial systems without any actual foreign exchange transactions across the boundaries.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_store

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala

eru2• 6 years ago

Couldn't soldiers also just use cash to augment their trading? Or is that specifically banned?

chipsa• 6 years ago

It's possible to still use cash on deployed bases. But this reduces the need to use cash for things like: buying from random morale things, like the Fox at the 'Deid.

someperson2• 6 years ago

buying from random morale things, like the Fox at the 'Deid

Took a bit of searching to understand what you meant: buying drinks at the Fox Sports Bar located in Al Udeid Air Base within the nation of Qatar.

KirillPanov2• 6 years ago

Unlike regular debit cards, the Eagle Cash is managed on-base, using batch processing which ensures that the cards remained useful even when connections to banks and credit unions State-side are severed.

This is really the whole point, but it's buried in the third paragraph. These cards work when the internet and all other communication with the outside world are down.

Replacing physical currency in that scenario is really difficult.

a-dub• 6 years ago

my laundry room in college used the same technology. sucks if you damage the card (by sitting on your wallet, for example).

1-6• 6 years ago

Of maybe like electronic lunch chits. Once they go through the reader, it might 'burn the circuit' being equivalent to stamping a hole into the card.

avian• 6 years ago

Back in the days when public phone booths were still a thing, the local telecom introduced pre-paid chip cards that you used for paying for your call. They were widely advertised as “fraud proof” because the chip physically burned polyfuses on the silicon as credits were used up. You can never restore a card that ran out of credits that way, they said.

It was simple to make a card insert and a circuit that just lied to the phone that a fuse was burned. They switched to a different system soon after.

zapdrive2• 6 years ago

With upcoming satellite internet projects (see Starlink), I think it will be highly unlikely to disconnect any army base totally from the internet. In such scenarios, any centralized service would be much more efficient, secure and convenient. Soldiers can also use cryptocurrencies for trade among themselves, without needing to carry cash.

lnanek2• 6 years ago

So what about during war when the enemy may have shot down your sats? Your soldiers are still going to want to buy goods on base during their down time and morale will suffer if you just tell them the internet is down.

zapdrive2• 6 years ago

How many will they shoot down? SpaceX is launching them by hundreds every month. The end goal is 45000 satellites. And by shooting just a few, the enemy will maybe only slow down the internet, not turn it off completely.

Let that sink in. They'll need 45000 missiles up shoot down every starlink satellite. Also, SpaceX will definitely be launching new ones as they are being shot down. So it's a very impractical approach.

pram2• 6 years ago

Huh. I was in the Air Force from 2005-2010 and I literally never saw this. I was at LSA Anaconda in Iraq too (mentioned in the article) ... must be an Army thing?

xedeon• 6 years ago

It was used in the Air Force as well. It was issued in Basic Training and deployed locations.

https://www.dvidshub.net/image/44435/eagle-cash-has-landed-a...

https://www.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2000452297/

https://www.afcent.af.mil/Units/332nd-Air-Expeditionary-Wing...

pram2• 6 years ago

I'm not denying it exists (it's obviously a thing) but when I went through basic, they had us bring a voided check to set up direct deposit. We never had anything like this. Also I used my USAA debit card with zero issues while deployed in Iraq/Afghanistan/Kyrgyzstan. Very strange!

studius• 6 years ago

Eagle Cash makes me think of something related to the World Space Commission[1][2].

But, apparently the US Dept. of the Treasury[3] manages three kinds of payment cards, EZPay, EagleCash, and Navy Cash.

Both the Army and Air Force use EagleCash[4][5].

There may have been some consolidation[6], but EZPay and Navy Cash still seem to have presence[7][8].

Note: previously there were four programs[9], once of which was Marine Cash.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space:_1999

[2] https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jizp?Space-1999The-Thirty-year...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-value_card

[4] https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/122557/eagle...

[5] https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/eaglecash/organizations.html

[6] https://www.usafmcom.army.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1...

[7] https://fiscal.treasury.gov/ezpay/

[8] https://fiscal.treasury.gov/navy-cash/

[9] https://www.secureidnews.com/news-item/us-military-relies-on...

josephkern• 6 years ago

Wait until you guys see the prices for the "AAFES POGS" on ebay ...

Basically while you can use cash, coins are too heavy to justify shipping into country. AAFES instead prints "gift certificates" in the shape of a pog, in 0.05, 0.10, 0.25 denominations.

The resale value on these is hilariously high ... these are federally issued mediums of exchange being currency except in name only. And only useable in deployed locations.

gioscarab4• 6 years ago

The word medium comes from latin, its plural is "media", not "mediums".

Retric3• 6 years ago

While some sources agree with you: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/mediums

Both Media and Mediums are plural forms in common usage. Thus: https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/mediums has mediums variants: or media plural of medium

ex: https://www.uspto.gov/kids/MiddleSchool-HowWellSoundTravels....

And really, English just evolves over time so these kind of rules don’t actually mean anything.

howlgarnish2• 6 years ago

The word "media" has become shorthand for "communications media". While correct in the original Latin, trying to use "media" as the plural for "medium" in any other context in English is jarring.

AndriyKunitsyn3• 6 years ago

I’m ESL, how far should the “thou should pluralize a loanword as it was in the original language” rule go? It seems to be not universal.

I mean, it’s “hamburgers”, not “die Hamburger”, “robots”, not “roboti”, and “rubles”, not “rubli”/“рубли”.

bananapear• 6 years ago

in the shape of a pog

In case you are wondering what a "pog" is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_caps_(game)

nefitty• 6 years ago

Something I never intended to learn: “pog” is an acronym for “passion fruit - orange - guava”.

cracksmoka420• 6 years ago

Person Other (than) Grunt

ggrelet• 6 years ago

ForHackernews3• 6 years ago

This sounds like a better alternative to bitcoin! I guess it requires a trusted central authority, but for most users that's a feature not a bug, and it sounds like it has a load of advantages:

- Faster transactions

- Can work "offline" (to some extent)

- No wasted energy calculating redundant sha256

- Able to rectify fraudulent transactions

alisonkisk2• 6 years ago

What use case is there for this where it's better than bitcoin?

This is just a local payment system, that's existed for centuries as scrip. ("On a computer" doesn't change the nature of it.)

Centralization undermines the purpose of bitcoin.

ForHackernews3• 6 years ago

What use case is there for this where it's better than bitcoin?

Any situation where you want to purchase legal goods or services? Or hold some money temporarily in a low-volatility cash-like form?

geraldcombs• 6 years ago

It's backed by a nation-state that has carrier groups?

H8crilA• 6 years ago

Lol you just described credit cards.

ForHackernews3• 6 years ago

No, because credit cards charge exorbitant interest rates. This is more analogous to electronic cash, since the value is stored on the card.

Multicomp• 6 years ago

this was tried in the UK in the late 90s (see !w Mondex) ... i sooo wish it was a thing today!

lxgr2• 6 years ago

Stored value cards are different from debit cards: Their value is physically stored on the chip, rather than the card just being a reference to some centrally maintained account.

As a consequence, they are usable completely offline and with very low latency.

webinvest• 6 years ago

Look at the Stellar Lumens Cryptocurrency.

jpkoning2• 6 years ago

The US military has had some innovative payments ideas.

An occupying force prefers to use a money that 1) doesn't dollarize the nation they are occupying 2) can be tracked, thus thwarting black marketeers 3) is lightweight 4) if they lose, the enemy can't reuse it

Unfortunately, dollar bills are bulky, infiltrate local economies, and aren't enemy-resistant.

So we get innovations like EagleCash, which solves a lot of these problems.

Other payments ideas emanating from the military include Military Payment Certificates (https://jpkoning.blogspot.com/2017/04/c-day-and-military-mon...), overstamped currency ( https://twitter.com/jp_koning/status/1343874636480729088) and pogs (http://numispedia.org/AAFES/).

md_3• 6 years ago

Why is #1 a goal? I’m assuming because of some desire to maintain the independence of a central bank in the occupied country?

Qub3d• 6 years ago

I imagine part of it is reducing the incentive for nation state actors to engage in counterfeiting.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar

jpkoning2• 6 years ago

That's right. In the US's case, if it was protecting a weakened friendly country or trying to rebuild a not-so-friendly one, dollarizing the economy would have undermined the occupied government and interfered with the US's overall goals. Using cancellable paper certificates like MPC or a closed loop electronic system like EagleCash prevented leakage of US dollars into the local economy.

internet_user2• 6 years ago

Dollarization of other countries is in the national interest of the US.

jl27182• 6 years ago

Yes. Very much so. In the beginning of my first deployment, the provisional government of Iraq rejected the BSA, so we pulled out and I redeployed to Afghanistan. During my second deployment, the Karzai government significantly reduced the BSA, and all regular forces pulled out around me. Both times, one of the biggest issues was dollars coming into the economy through US contracts and on-base merchants. This is good for them at first, but it turns the country into an import economy, and kills internal business. You can see this effect visually in the buildup of trash from imports replacing sustainable practices. 1000-year-old family farms gone fallow and covered in trash mixed with human waste. We tried to fix this with teams of Americans going around teaching Afghans how to do all the things they used to do before the onset of foreign aid.

alisonkisk2• 6 years ago

This is an electronic form of "scrip".

The risk is that it gives the script system owner control over the value of money.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip

dibujante• 6 years ago

Wait until you see what you can use your metro card for in Taipei...

lxgr2• 6 years ago

Many countries have (or used to have) similar stored-value cards. They are really useful for some use cases: Given that they are very cash-like (transferable, anonymous unless registered), they are usually available to foreigners and minors without any formalities.

Japan‘s version could at one point even be used to purchase games in Nintendo‘s eStore by tapping a transit card on a game console – genius, given that a big part of their target audience doesn‘t have a credit or debit card.

odiroot• 6 years ago

Isn't this the same as Octopus in HK or FlashPay in Singapore?

eric_khun• 6 years ago

Yes not only bus or metro, but almost everything. Taiwan put a considerable amount of effort to have a 1 card to rule them all. And it makes life so much easier[1]

[1] https://erickhun.com/posts/taiwan-youbike-bike-sharing/

ahelwer• 6 years ago

Microsoft uses something similar for their on-campus cafeterias. All Microsoft employees are issued a RFID card with a chip that functions as a door access card, visual ID (it has your photo/name/employee number on it), smartcard for 2FA (this is being phased out in favor of TPM-based device registration), and cafeteria payment system. You can elect to have some percentage of your paycheck automatically loaded on the card. I used it for a bit early on in my employment, but then switched to paying with credit card (like almost everyone else I know).

2bitencryption• 6 years ago

I think the core difference is that "Eagle Cash" is not centrally managed - the balance is actually on the physical card itself. I imagine the MS cards is more of a "central account" that is accessed when you swipe.

I guess each "Eagle Cash" terminal has a certificate, and whenever you credit/debit the card, the terminal adds/subtracts the amount on the card, signs the new balance with the certificate, and then this can be verified at any other terminal.

In other words, you can't modify the balance on the card unless you have the secret certificate, which is only present on the authorized terminals. If you try to modify it yourself, you can't do it, because no other terminal would accept the card unless the balance was cryptographically signed with the cert.

That's my guess for how this works, at least. I wonder if each terminal has a unique cert that can be revoked if it is compromised.

cbanek• 6 years ago

I'm reminded of the episode of MAS*H where they are exchanging one color of scrip for another [0], and the hijinx [1] that ensues.

[0] https://mash.fandom.com/wiki/Change_Day_(TV_series_episode)

[1] Triple word score for a word with three dotted letters in a row.

fallingfrog• 6 years ago

This was a common practice in the 19th century, paying workers in company chit that was only good at the company store. The practice might come back if the economic conditions are right.

Eagle Cash

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