How Little Sleep Can You Get Away With?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sleep-t.html?hp

by robg • 15 years ago

229 88 15 years ago

IanMikutel• 15 years ago

"P.V.T. is tedious but simple if you’ve been sleeping well. It measures the sustained attention that is vital for pilots, truck drivers, astronauts. Attention is also key for focusing during long meetings; for reading a paragraph just once."

I can't say how true that is when you're doing a ton of email all day or research, and its more a function of the sum total of small delays in re-reading that build up over the course of an entire day. Contrasted with a day when your mind is so clear that you require no re-reading, it feels like you are so much more productive.

Additional sleep links:

1. Sleep: How to hack your brain (http://www.dustincurtis.com/sleep.html)

2. The 4-Hour Body: Engineering better sleep (http://techcocktail.com/book-preview-the-4-hour-body-enginee...)

scott_s3• 15 years ago

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1464142

torstesu• 15 years ago

It would have been really interesting to see if power naps had any effect on the performance of the subjects that were deprived of sleep.

My personal experience is that 15 minutes in the horizontal position improves my awareness and performance. An additional hack is to drink an espresso the moment before you take your power nap - the effect of the caffeine will kick in in about 15 minutes after consumption.

petercooper• 15 years ago

Or the "siesta" style of sleep generally. That is, the pattern of having a nap in the day and a shorter nighttime sleep.

michaelcampbell• 15 years ago

I've tried a bi-phasic sleep cycle (2 short sleep cycles; 3-4 hours a "day" each time, with a 3-6 hour wake cycle in between) for a few weeks. It worked well enough for me, but with a 10 year old at home, I just couldn't make the timing work out.

I'm one that needs at least 8 hours a night; 9 is better.

Spyro7• 15 years ago

I wonder how long it takes to recover from the decreased performance.

When I was in high school, I could pull an all nighter with ease to take care of an assignment (or to finish a Legend of Zelda game in one straight playing session).

Now, in grad school, I needed to pull an all nighter recently and found that I just couldn't do it anymore. I hadn't pulled an all nighter in years and it just seemed to be vastly harder than it used to be.

It is too bad the study didn't attempt to see how much sleep was necessary to recover. Would have been nice to know how long the residual effects from decreased sleep lasts. It is now a full week since the end of my semester and I still feel abnormally tired.

credo• 15 years ago

The report is interesting and it isn't surprising that partial sleep deprivation results in a cognitive deficit.

I'd be more interested in understanding the long-term effects of insufficient sleep.

Is the cognitive deficit a temporary problem that goes away after a few days (or more of) sufficient sleep OR will sustained lack of sleep (over a long period) result in a long-term problem that persists even after the subject begins to sleep sufficiently.

ajkessler2• 15 years ago

Shorter lifespan: http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2002/02_08_Kripke.html

Grey hair: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-02/foas-nla02230...

mgkimsal• 15 years ago

weird. I've had some gray (at least, some I and others could notice) since I was 18 (and quite a lot all these years later). One of my brothers is 15 and has some gray. It's not really saying why the hydrogen peroxide builds up though. :/

Natsu• 15 years ago

In rats, at least, absolutely no sleep over something like a month resulted in death. That scenario was completely unnatural, though. They had to be kept awake with electric shocks or something, so I don't think people are physically capable of going without sleep for that long, unless someone is tormenting them.

markbao• 15 years ago

The problem with this is the search terms are pretty difficult to get right and requires a lot of sifting. Some studies concern themselves with studying "sleep deprivation" as in total sleep deprivation (see the sibling comment in this thread talking about rats).

In reality, you (and me) are looking for long-term effects of sleep deprivation, where deprivation = 5-6 hours regularly, 4 or less occasionally. Unfortunately, you can't just Google that. Anyone know of any articles that target this bracket of sleep deprivation (and not something more extreme)?

rubashov• 15 years ago

> I'd be more interested in understanding the long-term effects of insufficient sleep.

I will confidently guess it involves more infections/sick-days. More zits, and general inflammation. Higher cortisol/stress/angst. Higher rates of gastro-intestinal complaints (IBS, heart-burn).

If I skimmed the article correctly it measured ability to concentrate for a short time exclusively and ignored these others metrics.

ajkessler2• 15 years ago

I don't buy the seemingly arbitrary distinction that 8 hours is a good night's sleep. I know people who require 9+ hours per night (ie they appear sleep deprived if they get less than 9 for a few consecutive nights). I know one person who requires about 4 per night (not a forced four where you end up looking 10 years older than you really are after a few years).

I do like the idea of testing where your sweet spot is, though. I've never done anything like the PVT, but I've found (through Steve Pavlina's advice) that if you wake up at the same time each day, every day, and simply fall asleep when you're tired at the end of the day, you discover pretty quickly where that sweet spot is. More here: http://www.ajkesslerblog.com/how-to-get-back-9-weeks-of-your...

bcl• 15 years ago

Read the article more closely. Most need 8. There are some who need less, some who need more. The graph might even look like a bell curve ;)

kaiwetzel• 15 years ago

I was a little disappointed by the article in this regard. While it's mentioned that "There is a small portion of the population — he estimates it at around 5 percent or even less — who, for what researchers think may be genetic reasons, can maintain their performance with five or fewer hours of sleep. (There is also a small percentage who require 9 or 10 hours.)" it would be very interesting to know if there is a larger than 5% group that does just fine with 6 or 7 hours of sleep.

Assuming your assumption about the distribution of "needing x hours of sleep to do well" is correct and if we assume that 5% need only 5 hours or less and the mean is at 8 hours (the article is even unclear about what those 8 hours represent so it's a wild guess at best), how large is the percentage of people needing 7.5 hours or less? (Roughly 40% if it's a normal distribution). So what the article says about "most of us" is technically correct the interesting answers for the many of us that presumably need between 5 and 8 hours of sleep is left out.

Does it make a difference in what sleep phase people are woken up (after the n hours of sleep their group gets)? I wish more money would be available for this area of research so longer and more detailed studies could be done. And better handouts for journalists.

thebooktocome• 15 years ago

I've completely stopped going without sleep this since the last semester ended. Of course, we'll see if we last through the next semester...

The thing I've noticed is that I have way more free time than I thought I did, because I wasn't explicitly thinking about things in terms of "hmm, I have five hours before bed, I should probably do X".

Also, melatonin supplements are my friend. :)

kunjaan• 15 years ago

"I've completely stopped going without sleep this since the last semester ended"

That is a lie.

jrockway• 15 years ago

You are misunderstanding the sentence. He means that he no longer skips sleeping.

There is no reason to assume he is lying about this.

baddox• 15 years ago

Another grateful melatonin user here. That stuff got me through college, and I've successfully recommended it to friends (mostly the stereotypical geeks like myself who, left to their own devices, will keep pushing back bedtime a couple of hours every day ad infinitum). Just prepare yourself for some strange dreams for the first couple of months.

smokinn2• 15 years ago

Could you expand on this please? I'm one of those geeks that keeps pushing bedtime back. (Right now I'm waking up around 9pm and going to sleep around 1-2pm. By mid-to-late week I'll probably be back to a regular 8am-midnight.

jarin5• 15 years ago

I get bad results with melatonin. It definitely knocks me out, but even taking half a tablet before going to sleep makes me feel really groggy the next day.

JohnAllen• 15 years ago

I can tell if I've slept less than 8 hours; I can barely function with anything less than 7; add 30-60 minutes if I've exercised intensely the previous day.

The report makes it seem like even if people don't realize it, their performance suffers. I've always been jealous of those that could seemingly sleep for however much time was convenient but not anymore!

pamelafox• 15 years ago

I often get told that I don't sleep enough (more like 6 than 8, if that), but for me, my dreams get stranger the longer I sleep, and my day is happier if I can wake up without strange dreams lingering in my head. For example, last night I slept about 8 hours (probably due to wine the night before), and my final dream involved me trying to evade certain death in a circus. I'd prefer to start off my day on cheerier notes. :)

I don't use an alarm as I believe in waking up when your body wants you to, after its natural cycles end. Or at least, thats what usually works for me.

afterburner• 15 years ago

Maybe if you used an alarm you'd be forced to wake up during a part of your sleep cycle where you're not dreaming, and so won't remember dreaming.

astrange• 15 years ago

You can get a sleep cycle alarm which will take care of that. Sleep Cycle for iOS works, with the possible problem that you need a power cord long enough to put the device on your bed.

eneveu• 15 years ago

I saw a documentary about sleep a few years ago. The main idea was that a sleep cycle lasts approximately 90 minutes, and you feel better rested when you avoid waking up in the middle of a cycle.

Since then, I always set my alarm clock to sleep a multiple of 90 minutes: 6h, 7h30min, 9h... (6 hours more often than not, but I might change this, having read this article...)

I used to dream all the time. I haven't dreamt since I started doing this. I guess I still have dreams, but I never remember them. I think you only remember dreams when you are woken up in the middle of REM sleep (in the middle of a cycle).

A nice benefit of my current sleep pattern, is that I fall asleep very fast, instead of waiting in bed for up to 1 hour like I used to. I hope it's not because I'm sleep deprived, though...

euccastro• 15 years ago

Don't listen to siblings. :) If you can afford to _free run_ (which google for) your sleep just do it.

adamtj• 15 years ago

I've read that people sleep less deeply when they've had alcohol.

nostrademons• 15 years ago

I've also noticed that my dreams get crazier and more vivid the longer I sleep - the dream I have at the 7 hour mark is usually quickly forgotten after waking, but the ones I've had after about 11 hours of sleep are vivid, realistic, long, and often stick with me for months. Occasionally years.

I tend to embrace those dreams, however, and seek them out. I feel like a good portion of my creativity comes from waking up relaxed after a vivid dream. Even if I don't remember the dream itself, I feel like it puts me into a mental state where I'm more open to new and strange ideas.

jarin5• 15 years ago

Strangely enough, I've found that since I increased my caffeine intake (to around 900-1200mg/day via energy drinks) I've been sleeping great. I usually go to sleep around 10pm, wake up naturally around 3am, and take a 1 hour nap around 3 pm. I've been drinking a lot of water as well, and I've had no problems focusing on work. I think the nap is the key though.

Apocryphon• 15 years ago

That sounds like segmented sleep. You're channeling your ancestors.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/opinion/19ekirch.html

anonymoushn• 15 years ago

How has 900-1200mg/day worked out for you? I considered it a lot when I was doing 500-600mg/day.

jarin5• 15 years ago

Pretty good, it's basically a max of 4 Engage energy drinks, or 2 of them and a mix of Nos or Monster. I don't feel jittery at all, but I do get a headache if I don't get any caffeine within a few hours of waking up.

I used to get a little heart weirdness (a weird beat once in a while), but I've cut down smoking to 1 or 2 cigarettes per day and started drinking more water and the heart weirdness has stopped happening.

Estragon• 15 years ago

How long have you been living that way?

jarin5• 15 years ago

About 3 months, with the occasional "sleep in till noon" on a weekend.

pstack2• 15 years ago

I'd settle for even being able to sleep at regular intervals. I have a habit of staying up until I'm tired and waking up when I can't sleep anymore. As a result, I may stay up all day for several days and then stay up all night for several days. Or for several days, I may sleep twice during 24hrs, in completely random periods. I just don't do well with the concept of "well, it's 10pm, so that means it's time to get into bed".

klochner• 15 years ago

get married :)

diego• 15 years ago

but don't have kids :)

radu_floricica• 15 years ago

Long live melatonin. Gave me a lot more control over my sleep schedule. Plus, the "positive side effects" section on the wikipedia entry is several pages long...

Meai• 15 years ago

it would be a lot easier to just use eye patches

bennesvig• 15 years ago

Melatonin is great. Dream Water has the similar effect too.

AndyJPartridge• 15 years ago

I've not needed to be anywhere at any particular time most days for about 8 years now. I sleep wildly like you mention, and often don't feel good for it.

I recently went camping in the Lake District, and as the camp sites were very dark at 10pm I went to bed, and as the tent starting getting hot at 8am I got up.

I felt great for it.

For me, I think my body needs a routine. Shame I can't get into that routine at home, despite trying.

pstack2• 15 years ago

I do have a schedule work-wise to keep, but it's not enough that it informs the rest of my life-style, I think. I work three days a week (nights, actually) for about twelve to fourteen hours. I telecommute, so it's not a huge deal and I could technically do my job at any time, but various persons have come to rely upon my availability during those odd hours to sort of bridge an informational gap across geographies if something comes up.

Part of the reason I spend more time in my own basement than any other room of the house is that it's dark down here (I've covered up the windows with blackout fabric) and it's very quiet. I don't hear the neighbor cleaning his RV or someone mowing their yard or loud cars going past.

I know it's unhealthy, but I don't really know of another solution (and from what I understand, it isn't enough to have a schedule - but you need to have a schedule where you're awake during the day and getting sunlight).

cynusx• 15 years ago

Each morning the sun shines in my face, it's uncomfortable to keep sleeping like that so my schedule is surprisingly regular now. I used to sleep like you in my previous condo's.

vacri• 15 years ago

I had a weird experience where I was working night shift two nights a week while going to university. I was also writing for a MUD and my deadline was looming. A two week semester break occurred, and for that two weeks I lived in a strange four-hour sleep/wake cycle, broken only by my work shifts.

It was really strange to spend four hours writing, say from 6am, then sleep 10-2pm, get up for another four hours, sleep 6-10pm etc. Not sustainable, but was an interesting experience to have. Gave me an insight into how screwed up shift workers can get, too.

ianl• 15 years ago

During my first year of university while I was running a start up our of dorm room (modest success) and doing a full course load I was running on four hours of sleep a night and an hour afternoon's nap just before supper.

That experience taught me something very important, sleep is crucial. When you are tired you get tunnel vision and all you want to do is complete your task. The long term effects of this on your start up is that you loose the edge to be innovative while trying to solve problems.

sliverstorm• 15 years ago

The worst part is you only want to complete the task, so that you can sleep.

FrojoS• 15 years ago

No, the worst part is, that you wake up and find you only produced crap.

udoprog• 15 years ago

Loved this article. I would love to see a simliar test around polyphasic sleep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep).

I've actually tried the Uberman sleep schedule for three weeks. This is where you sleep 20 minutes for each 4 hours, totalling in a whopping 2 hours sleep each day.

The time gain was insane, and the transition period aswell (between day 3-5 I actually hallucinated due to sleep deprevation). But around 1.5 weeks something strange happened. The 20 minute period that you are allowed to sleep seemed like hours each time, and I would wake up like clockwork on the 20 minute mark.

The whole routine is not just a sleep routine, it affects your entire lifestyle. No stimulants, including sugar, high degrees of fat, caffeine. No sedatives, alcohol, drugs (!). And the fact that you are awake during the night when the whole world seems dead is one of the hardest social aspects to handle. What do you do with 6 extra hours each day?

Of course there's the aspect of finding somewhere to sleep every 4 hours (was at school at the time), and if you ever missed out, you would have hell to pay.

I eventually buckled on a skiing trip with an open bar, had a nice weekend and decided to going back to normal sleeping patterns. Partly because it was not socially acceptable to sleep 2 hours a day (my father threatened to beat some sense into me). But also that there was very little foundation that this kind of sleep pattern was even safe. A couple of million years of evolution had other idea's of when and how long it is necessary to sleep.

Other than that, the foundations that I gathered up from this was that when changing your sleeping pattern. The body frantically tries to adapt. By sleeping extremely short periods the body would effectively increase the amount of REM sleep (and yes, I dreamed a lot during these sleeping periods), however, it has not been proven that you don't need the other types of sleep.

This is probably a lot of rumours, and a lot of wishful thinking. I personally wish there was some solid backing behind this kind of reasoning (more time awake is awesome!), There are a lot of buzz out there (check google and youtube), but I've been unable to find anything reasonably solid.

chadp• 15 years ago

I thought the article was useless. The only thing that would have been interesting is how (or if) polyphasic naps can replace hours of one's core sleep.

Uberman is too extreme to keep up, no one has done it for long periods yet. The Everyman with a core sleep of 3-4.5 hrs a day with 2-3 15 minute naps is much more interesting.

rednum• 15 years ago

Isn't polyphasic considered a hoax? Piotr Wozniak, though his site looks rather shitty, seems to know what he is talking about: http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic2010.htm Specifically this paragraph sums the thing up:

  I received some 500 pieces of mail and got in personal
  touch with many polyphasic adepts. Of those attempts that
  I was given a chance to monitor, all were unsuccessful.   
  Some of the critics of the original article claimed that 
  they do sleep polyphasically, but I received no data that 
  could serve as the basis for verification.

Also I recall reading quite many stories about people who tried polyphasic and they are similar to yours - ie. after 2-3 weeks they stop for some random reason - which really sounds to me like "I can't make it, but I won't admit even to myself so I say I stopped for reason X". Also some actually stop earlier and admit they were constantly deprivated.

dkersten3• 15 years ago

That doesn't really make it a hoax though: yes, everybody gave up after a while, but like OP, it may well just be social pressure. All polyphasic sleep accounts I read ended up with something along the lines of "its too hard to fit social events around such a strict schedule". If you're awake during the night when nobody else is and you have to nap when everybody else is awake, and you CANNOT miss a nap, then of course people are eventually going to cave in and go back to a more normal schedule so that they mesh with their friends schedules better.

I think to make the ubermann cycle work, you need 1) to have a job that allows such a schedule 2) not have kids 3) have a bunch of your friends do it too so that your schedule isn't too different from the people you interact with the most.

IMHO, its unlikely that people will will meet all three of those points though. The "solution" would perhaps be a less severe and strict schedule. For example, I tried a 28-hour day schedule (the one from xkcd.. am I crazy trying a sleep cycle I saw in a comic?) and it worked really well: stay up 20 hours then sleep for 8, repeat. Monday to thursday fit around my uni schedule (at the time) perfectly, Friday (which I had off) through Sunday I was basically awake at night and asleep during the day. I ended up with 6 28 hour days. Worked really well! ...until the day I had an appointment in the middle of my "I'm supposed to be asleep" time on a Friday, got knocked off course and didn't bother going back to it.

raphaelb• 15 years ago

I tried everyman with my wife and thought it was going great subjectively, until a friend of ours said "You guys look like shit" which made us promptly realize that hidden behind the delusion that we were doing fine we were much more dull.

asimjalis• 15 years ago

I've noticed a difference based on when I wake up. If I wake up early in the morning when it's still dark I find I am quite alert even on a few hours of sleep. If I wake up later I need the eight hours.

sinker• 15 years ago

Interesting article, but the results don't reflect the performance of those who have adapted to alternative sleep schedules in the long term. The article states that subjects were to maintain their sleep schedule for two weeks. I reckon that any sudden shift in sleep schedules would have a good chance of causing fatigue. A more interesting experiment would be to see how those with alternative sleep schedules that have practiced them in the long term compare to those with 8 a day schedules.

BlazingFrog2• 15 years ago

I envy all of you people who "choose" how many hours of sleep they will have (or not have). After you have kids, especially if their sleep pattern is very inconsistent for no apparent reason, you just take whatever you can get. Unfortunately, you may not be ready to sleep at 10pm that night that your child will decide to wake up at 1am ready to go about her day... Don't pay attention to me. Just another rant from a sleep-deprived parent... ;)

guygurari3• 15 years ago

We had a lot of sleep-related problems with our kid. We recently sought professional help and started a program that gives children good sleep habits. We are three weeks in, and the results so far are nothing short of amazing. To put it simply, the kid is sleeping much better, and we got our lives back.

One thing we learned the hard way is that following a method from a book is not enough -- you need a professional to guide you through this. There are many pitfalls you don't know about that will lead to failure, and you wont even realize what it is you're doing wrong. Good luck!

wizard_2• 15 years ago

Can you explain in a bit more depth?

jamesbkel• 15 years ago

Did the advice apply to just your child or did it also include parental sleep habit advice?

smackay• 15 years ago

I'd agree with getting professional help for the simple reason is that they probably have greater experience and know a wide range of tricks and techniques you can try and when to try them. Books can be a one size fits all approach that is more of a recipe approach so it is difficult to judge what advice to follow and more especially if the first few ideas fail to generate any results. Also having someone around who is not also sleep-deprived (hopefully) and so thinking clearly is only a good thing.

herf• 15 years ago

I wonder if f.lux should have a P.V.T. test built in!

patrickk2• 15 years ago

How little sleep one can survive on is something I would like to not to explore. I've struggled with insomnia for over a decade now, and if you are fortunate to consistently get a solid nights sleep and wake up refreshed, then you should appreciate the energy you have.

I would much rather sleep well, have less hours in the day to work with and operate at 80-100% mental capacity rather than get less sleep, drink gallons of coffee or other stimulants and struggle with being able to think clearly.

Ironically enough, it's exam season now and I may have found a solution - forcing myself to go to bed at midnight, and up at 8-9am (no matter how bad I feel) and taking one caffeine tablet in the morning and one at at lunch, I now have something like regular alertness for the first time consistently in years. It's only a few days into this phase however so who knows how it will pan out. Many a false dawn (pun intended) was had before with solving insomnia!

TheSOB88• 15 years ago

Ever try not exposing yourself to light at night? That's any light - overhead lights, computer screens, lamp poles. Your body produces melatonin based on that kind of input, and anything with significant blue light in it apparently stops you from producing it.

patrickk2• 15 years ago

Believe me I've tried everything over the years. From what I've read about insomnia, it's incredibly subjective; things that work for one person won't help at all for others. Some people can get their "sleep hygiene" (stuff you are supposed to do in order to sleep well) all wrong, and still sleep like a log, e.g. drink plenty coffee late in the evening, noisy environment, lack of exercise, eating heavily close to bedtime etc. If I do any of these things I'm almost guaranteed to have an awful night's sleep.

Recently I've bought a Kindle DX (used along with a relatively dim overhead freestanding lamp[1]), and I read that till I feel really sleepy. This satisfies my craving for reading instead of staring at a computer screen. The lack of a backlit screen shining into your retinas really helps!

[1] http://p.mdcd.net/product_images/full/2b3c568350aa9759eaa00a...

lupatus• 15 years ago

This can also be tough to do if you live in a very northerly or southerly latitude. For example, I live in Alaska and it did not get dark last night until approximately 1 AM, local time.

I've adapted myself to sleeping when the clock says I should and not based on how well lit it is.

knodi• 15 years ago

I try to sleep little over 8 hour and less then 9 hours, although it doesn't always happen. As the last hour of my sleep I almost always experience lucid dreams and they make my day so much better.

code_duck• 15 years ago

I wonder when they'll stop forcing active duty military to make do with 4 hours a night.

tmd• 15 years ago

I have always suspected that I need more sleep than other people. When I tried to live without alarm clock I slept for 9-10 hours every night. It seems to be an enormous waste of time so I usually schedule an alarm after 8 hours.

It never occurred to me that one can measure whether the amount of sleep received is right. I just downloaded PEBL (http://pebl.sourceforge.net/), an open source software that includes the P.V.T. test (mentioned in the article) in its battery -- an you can adjust lots of test parameters simply by editing ppbt.pbl. Seems to be working fine (though the test itself is boring and tedious). I'll measure few times a day and try whether 8 vs 10 hours makes a difference in my case.

coreymaass• 15 years ago

I highly reocmmend Jmes Maas' book Power Sleep. He's a Cornell professor who's studied sleep for decades. This book opened my eyes to just how important enough sleep is. http://www.amazon.com/Power-Sleep-Revolutionary-Prepares-Per...

How Little Sleep Can You Get Away With?

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