The Lisp keyboards

http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=98&ok

by fogus • 15 years ago

60 38 15 years ago

rudiger• 15 years ago

Why are the parentheses in such an awkward place (Shift+8, Shift+9, or Shift+0)? I don't program Lisp, but why don't Lisp keyboards put parentheses in a more convenient place?

Also, there are quite a few modifier keys ("Function", "Super", "Hyper", "Rub Out", etc)? Anyone know the purpose of all of them?

daniel-cussen• 15 years ago

I took on online file of the Dvorak keyboard layout and modded it so the parens would be where the tags in Dvorak are (shift-W and shift-E on Qwerty). I made other mods too. It's really comfy.

leoc2• 15 years ago

Note that all of these keyboards except the Knight have a second pair of parens: the unshifted characters on the keys just right of P, where the PC/Windows layouts have square brackets. (In turn forcing square brackets into the shifted position, and curly braces onto other keys.) This helps to balance the wear on the keys. ;)

Semiapies3• 15 years ago

Ah, I was wondering the same thing, but I hadn't caught that those two weren't the PC brackets-and-braces keys. Thanks.

stevelosh• 15 years ago

It looks like the Racal-Norsk KPS-10 Lisp Prototype has them in a more convenient place, as well as on 9 and 0: http://webwit.nl/input/kps/1.jpg

I like that idea, even though I don't do much Lisp. Parentheses are still used everywhere in programming and are always awkward. Maybe I'll experiment with remapping some keys if I can figure out which ones to sacrifice.

sedachv6• 15 years ago

Super and Hyper are modifier keys for Emacs and to let you type things like Greek letters and math/logic symbols easily (you can see math symbols on the Space Cadet and Knight keyboards).

Rubout is just backspace. IMO having it next to the 'a' is a really good position; I rebind my Caps Lock key to Backspace on my machines. It's more convenient than the Sun-style "Control as Caps Lock" layout.

rbanffy3• 15 years ago

What's the hyper key? Here there are Control, Super (Windows) and Meta (Alt) but nothing like Hyper.

I can only imagine the huge powers having a hyper key would give me ;-)

Natsu• 15 years ago

> Rubout is just backspace. IMO having it next to the 'a' is a really good position; I rebind my Caps Lock key to Backspace on my machines. It's more convenient than the Sun-style "Control as Caps Lock" layout.

One of my favorite keyboards of all time had the spacebar split in two. Because I learned typing such that I always use the right thumb to press the spacebar, the left half of the spacebar made a very good backspace. I've often wished I could find more good keyboards like that.

ScottBurson3• 15 years ago

Almost right. Super and Hyper are pure modifiers and can be combined with any key. On the original Space Cadet keyboard, Top and Front were used to type Greek letters and symbols. (Not all of the symbols shown on the keys could actually be entered, however.) The later Symbolics keyboards had a Symbol key for this purpose.

leoc2• 15 years ago

See http://catb.org/jargon/html/B/bucky-bits.html and related.

makmanalp• 15 years ago

My CS professor used to joke that they used foot pedals for open / close paren.

naner2• 15 years ago

This is not entirely a joke for some very serious emacs users.

rbarooah• 15 years ago

http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/

Not lisp specific, but he does have dedicated paren keys.

williamdix• 15 years ago

I really wish there was a company that would produce replicas of these keyboards which used USB. If I thought there was any chance of it being successful, I would open said business immediately. But alas, I don't think anyone wants to use these monstrosities anymore.

bvttf• 15 years ago

kickstarter! there's probably enough nostalgia and curiosity to make it happen.

sedachv6• 15 years ago

There are tons of niche keyboard producers around. Most of them would probably be willing to work on custom layouts if you can show pre-orders. Here are some that produce quality mechanical keyboards:

http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/index.html http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/index.html http://elitekeyboards.com/ http://www.diatec.co.jp/

Something like a Happy Hacking keyboard with a Space Cadet layout would be a big hit IMO. Put me down for a couple.

rbanffy3• 15 years ago

I'm all in for a modernized Space Cadet (with cursor keys, please). I'd buy two, at least.

cpr• 15 years ago

The problem is that the original Knight keyboards and first coupla generations of LispM keyboards were made with full mechanical Hall-effect switches by Microswitch, a Honeywell subsidiary. There were never more wonderful keys crafted by the hand of men.

Sadly, once Microswitch stopped making these, even on a custom basis (they lived on for a long time as ATM keys, etc., since they were certified for millions of up/down cycles), that particular silken feel has been lost.

I still have my 3rd generation LLNL Microswitch keyboard, commissioned by the MIT/Stanford folks working on the S1 supercomputer.

Even this 3rd generation can't match the original Knight keyboard feel.

Sigh.

sedachv6• 15 years ago

I found these hall-effect switches from Microswitch:

http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=6422...

I wonder if they're suitable?

rbanffy3• 15 years ago

Notice the absence of cursor keys.

prodigal_erik• 15 years ago

Not sure but something gives me the impression that the cursor keys are at the far right (thumb up/down and finger pointing left/right).

ScottBurson3• 15 years ago

Those weren't used as cursor keys. Cursor motion was done with Emacs commands (C-b, C-f, C-n, C-p).

In fact I don't recall the OS using those keys for anything at all; they were available to applications, though.

js2• 15 years ago

How did this get past the dupe filter? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2189916

Semiapies3• 15 years ago

As it's exactly the same URL, maybe the dupe filter has a date horizon?

wewyor• 15 years ago

PG has said that the dupe filter only works for articles that are loaded in memory

mrbill• 15 years ago

You can build an adapter to make the Symbolics keyboards USB. I've got the parts and the keyboard, but haven't taken the time to re-compile the code for the Teensy 2.0 yet.

http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-convert-your-sy...

pinchyfingers• 15 years ago

This is why I switch my CTRL and ALT keys, it makes Emacs painless.

ScottBurson3• 15 years ago

I actually have the guts of an original Space Cadet keyboard. By "guts" I mean it's just the part made by Micro Switch: the PC card with all keyswitches and keys and all wiring, but no microcontroller and no case.

Nor, alas, do I have the source for the program the microcontroller ran. (I'm pretty sure it was an 8748.) Lacking that, I think it would be pretty hard to get the thing to work.

webwit• 15 years ago

There are various ways to get the thing to work, for example check here: http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7 and here http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15 Of course, I advise you to forget about doing all that yourself and hand it over to the guy who wrote the Lisp keyboards article (hi!).

deadcyclo• 15 years ago

I have wanted a space cadet keyboard for close to 10 years now. Not only because it's really cool but because I live my life inside Emacs and this is the ultimate Emacs keyboard. Should clear up my Emacs finger pains in no time, not to speak of modifier key heaven.

The Lisp keyboards

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