Diageo to launch Johnnie Walker whisky in paper bottles

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-diageo-packaging/diageo-to-launch-johnnie-walker-whisky-in-paper-bottles-in-2021-idUSKCN24E112

by hhs • 6 years ago

54 111 6 years ago

reuters.com

082349872349872• 6 years ago

... ramps up efforts to tackle plastic waste.

What kind of savage lets their alcohol touch plastic? ;-)

twic3• 6 years ago

The kind of savage who drinks Johnnie Walker.

kgwxd• 6 years ago

I hate Johnnie Walker but I don't think I've ever seen it in a plastic bottle. Isn't is usually glass?

rjsw• 6 years ago

I'm guessing that bottles sold at airports might be plastic, to save weight and for security reasons.

smachiz2• 6 years ago

I've never seen any Johnnie Walker airport bottles in plastic - at least not full size.

I would bet they sell the mini bottles and pints in plastic - but their full size bottles have been glass in every outlet I've seen them.

jacknews3• 6 years ago

it might be in a plastic bottle for vagrants perhaps

whisky should be in a glass bottle

himinlomax• 6 years ago

is fully recyclable

Glass if fully recyclable and reusable.

alexpotato• 6 years ago

But is not biodegradable on shorter time scales.

e.g. a glass bottle in a woodland setting could stay in that form for thousands of years. A paper bottle would last a few weeks at most.

catalogia5• 6 years ago

Glass bottles in the ocean get chemical and mechanical weathering pretty quickly, being ground away to sand on the order of decades. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_glass)

You can also simply put them through a crusher/pulverize two or three times to turn them back into sand. I'm not really sure intact glass is a big environmental problem though. Animals could get stuck in intact bottles or cut themselves on sharp glass, but otherwise I believe glass is nontoxic, generally quite inert, and as far as nature is concerned indistinguishable from other naturally occurring minerals (obsidian in particular comes to mind.)

enkid• 6 years ago

Is that really a big deal? Is that form actively harmful? After all, it's mostly melted sand. Seems like it would be no worse than having a rock to me, but I don't know enough to say that definitively.

jacknews3• 6 years ago

what does paper/cardboard biodegrade to?

mytailorisrich3• 6 years ago

My understanding is that glass and plastics recycle much better than waxed paper.

The issue with glass is that it requires a lot of energy to produce and recycle, and is heavy, which means more energy to transport it.

Properly recycled plastics may in fact be the most environmentally friendly option ...

leetcrew• 6 years ago

there is an additional complication. while glass requires more energy to "recycle" than plastic, you actually get the original product back. when you recycle glass bottles, you can keep making new bottles from the same material indefinitely. what we do with plastic might be better described as "downcycling"; every cycle outputs lower quality plastic and eventually you end up with unusable material that needs to be disposed of.

akiselev3• 6 years ago

Properly recycled plastic may in fact be the most environmentally friendly option ...

There is no environmentally friendly way to recycle plastics or glass because the require way more energy to recycle than they take to produce. Only aluminum requires more energy to extract (by electrolyzing bauxite) than to recycle so about 30-50% of aluminum sold in the US is recycled. The rest is virgin aluminum that has to be extracted to meet demand - the entire world would use only recycled aluminum if it could.

Spooky232• 6 years ago

Environmental people will bikeshed you to death on glass.

Common issues:

- Manufacturing glass == high heat, heat == carbon.

- Reusing glass bottles involve cleaning, and the impact of warm water and soap is significant.

- Glass bottles are heavier than plastic. So delivering a bottle of coke in a glass bottle supposedly uses more resources than a plastic bottle. (Walmart used this to assert that Sam's Club foam cups were friendlier than cardboard a few years ago)

Basically, unless you ride a bike to the ocean, collect saltwater with an unbleached paper straw, and desalinate it using a solar-powered device that weighs less than 5 pounds, you are a horrible person.

unethical_ban• 6 years ago

Manufacturing, you're spot on.

Disposal/recycling? Glass is renewable. It's sand. It's rock.

Crush it up, dump it in the ocean and make more. With solar powered furnaces and ultra-thin tolerances, I guess.

joncp• 6 years ago

Basically, unless you ride a bike to the ocean

... and you'd better be burning plant-based calories buddy

greenshackle2• 6 years ago

Glass is more recyclable than paper. Paper is really only "downcyclable", each cycle shortens the average fiber length.

black_puppydog• 6 years ago

Wait... they're using plastic bottles right now?! The bottles I know are glass + metal top. perfect for recycling. Am I missing something?

Edit: lol okay I'm not the only one. So is it a marketing ploy then?

etrautmann2• 6 years ago

The little airplane bottles are frequently plastic?

Zenst• 6 years ago

That is true, then hotel mini bars, soon stacks up in volume in a way that is easily overlooked, more so when you just see the glass bottle variations.

Frost1x• 6 years ago

Aside from very large containers of cheaper of "mid tier" quality alcohols and samplers, I've never seen a plastic bottle.

For scotch, I've never seen anything but glass and don't believe I'd buy anything but glass.

Is there an advantage to paper recycling over glass? I know I've went through the whole "recycle your own paper" project when I was a kid but nothing to the level an industrial plant would likely do. I'm assuming energy requirements may be the same? Paper seems like it might be more difficult in some cases. Way out of my area of expertise.

jschwartzi• 6 years ago

Usually the rotgut canadian whiskies like Rich & Rare are sold in plastic gallon bottles here.

pavon• 6 years ago

I know our local waste department has had a very hard time finding anyone to recycle the glass they collect. Some of it ends up crushed and tumbled to be used for landscaping. But most of it is crushed and layered over the landfill liner. That is technically recycling/reuse as I think something else like gravel would be used otherwise, but it isn't what people expect when they recycle their bottles.

I don't have any official information about what prevents it from being recycled but I've heard word of mouth that transportation costs are a huge factor if you don't already have glass production in your area. Also that sorting is a big issue, as different glasses have different additives, and need to be recycled separately but sorting is hard to do safely and cost effectively.

beenBoutIT5• 6 years ago

By virtue of not floating and not killing aquatic life paper has much better optics, even if it all just ends up being burned as biomass fuel.

dfxm12• 6 years ago

From the article: Diageo uses less than 5% of plastic in its total packaging.

Normal 750ml bottles sold to consumers are likely glass, but who knows about smaller bottles or products sold to other markets.

arrosenberg• 6 years ago

It definitely seems like a marketing ploy, but I'd also have to wonder if the paper container is light enough compared to the glass/metal container to make a big difference in distribution costs.

raesene93• 6 years ago

I've never seen whisky (Johnnie Walker or others) in a plastic bottle...

If the Whisky industry wants to cut down on waste, there's a really easy way to do it. Stop putting whisky into fancy cardboard/metal boxes (or at least offer a version of all your lines without the box).

Other spirits do just fine without the fancy box, it's just pure waste (apart from perhaps whisky bought for gifts)

Arainach3• 6 years ago

Direct sunlight quickly (in a matter of a few weeks) affects both the color and taste of whisky. The outer packaging serves a functional role.

etrautmann2• 6 years ago

Then an opaque paper bottle would presumably also work well for this?

thebean11• 6 years ago

When would it really be in direct sunlight though? I'd imagine sitting on a liquor store shelf wouldn't qualify unless it was in the window or something.

raesene93• 6 years ago

I'd say that either a) keeping it out of direct sunlight (e.g. in a warehouse or a shop) or b) making the bottles more opaque, would be a more ecologically friendly option? Apart from display bottles, it doesn't seem like that likely that during the sales process, it would need to be outside for extended periods of time.

The heavy embossed metal or cardboard used doesn't seem to me, to come from that requirement, more a marketing thing to signal a "premium" product (the more expensive the whisky, often the more elaborate the packaging)

Scoundreller• 6 years ago

Nothing a thin layer of foil can’t solve. Metal is better at blocking UV light than any glass.

kube-system• 6 years ago

Other materials can fulfill this requirement even better than brown glass can. However, marketing plays a pivotal role in the commercial success of alcoholic beverages, and packaging is a very important part of this.

TedDoesntTalk• 6 years ago

Olive oil is also affected by light. Quality olive oil is packaged in opaque ceramic. Dark paper would serve the same purpose.

smachiz2• 6 years ago

I would bet it's their mini-bottles and pints - those are what are commonly plastic rather than glass.

donarb• 6 years ago

I've never seen whisky (Johnnie Walker or others) in a plastic bottle...

Lots of airline liquor bottles are plastic.

beenBoutIT5• 6 years ago

IIRC, that's to prevent terrorists from weaponizing the glass bottles.

yellowapple• 6 years ago

I've never seen whisky (Johnnie Walker or others) in a plastic bottle...

It's pretty common for smaller bottles of inexpensive whiskey, at least here in the US; I see (and buy) the likes of Jack Daniels and Jim Beam in plastic bottles all the time (e.g. for parties, since I know we'll have no trouble going through the whole bottle in a night).

catalogia5• 6 years ago

I believe when a 'bottle' is made out of paper, it's properly called a 'carton'. e.g. a 'carton of milk'

twic3• 6 years ago

I remember buying cartons of red wine in Italy in the mid '90s for a few hundred lire a go. It was diabolically bad. Great days!

dhimes2• 6 years ago

My boating friends tell me "boxed wine" is making a comeback- especially on boats.

jfengel• 6 years ago

They've started putting decent wines in boxes. There's nothing inherently wrong with boxes, or screw tops, or plastic corks. They prevent further aging, but that's just fine: the vast majority of wines are as good as they'll ever get when they go into the bottle.

The mystique of ultra high-end wines aging for years requires careful conditions, specific wine properties, and is still pretty hit-and miss. For everything else, there's no reason not to package it for convenience rather than tradition.

Boxes used to be used only for bad wines, and there's still plenty of bad wine in boxes, but they've gotten good at making decent reliable wines for cheap. Putting them in a box lowers costs, and it's very nice to be able to take out one glass at a time.

bzb3• 6 years ago

At least here in Spain very bad red or white wine which is used exclusively for cooking comes in cartons.

simlevesque2• 6 years ago

Carton is a french word and it means cardboard or box. I've never heard is used for something that has a round shape.

catalogia5• 6 years ago

That's a fair point. I can't think of any examples of round containers called cartons. On the other hand, an 'egg carton' has a specialized rather irregular albeit broadly rectangular shape, so I don't think a carton is necessarily a rectangular prism. I think they tend to be that way since the material lends itself to it. Cardboard tubes are definitely a thing and I haven't heard them referred to as cartons though.

forgotmypw173• 6 years ago

Milk "cartons" have a lot of plastic in them, and are neither biodegradeable, nor recyclable.

catalogia5• 6 years ago

I believe they were originally made with waxed paper. I'm not sure if wax is much better in those regards.

jey• 6 years ago

What's the inside coating made of that doesn't get dissolved away by 40% ethanol solution?

knodi123• 6 years ago

yeah, my understanding was that most paper packaging these days was lined with a very thin layer of plastic or foil.

but "pure paper" is what they're claiming... maybe there's a new tech? or maybe they're doing that cheap marketing trick where you say "20% of the package is made entirely out of nothing but 100% pure paper!"

beenBoutIT5• 6 years ago

It could be something like a food-safe linoleum coating on the inside surface of the cardboard bottle.

mattmaroon• 6 years ago

Probably an epoxy that’s sprayed on. That’s what lines aluminum cans.

ficklepickle• 6 years ago

I just found out about zein[0] the other day. It's made from corn. Not sure about ethanol resistance, though. Wikipedia says it is used to line coffee cups, for example. How often it is used, compared to plastics, I do not know.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zein

trekrich• 6 years ago

whats wrong with glass? Its worked for years!

raducu2• 6 years ago

Diageo, ah... the memories, it was nice writing software for them. Actually the coleagues were nice, the software was shitty.

forgotmypw173• 6 years ago

did you work for a CerTain agency in nyc? ))

raducu2• 6 years ago

No, I worked for a danish company that worked on very high value added products and products with very high entry costs/moats so they tended to use old technologies, but they delivered ok(ish) products in the end.

fortran77• 6 years ago

Is it better than glass!?

jml7c52• 6 years ago

Let's put on the skeptic cap, because "environmentally friendly" packaging is rife with misleading statements. (For an example, the bottled water company "Just Water" notes their plant-based, organic, environmentally friendly packaging can be recycled, but they specifically avoid mentioning it cannot be composted. They even fooled their own PR team.[1])

Pulpex site 'about' page: "NOT Pulp wrapped around plastic"

Pulpex site 'about' page: "NOT Pulp-infused into PET"

Pilot Lite press release: "...first ever 100% PET free paper-based spirits bottle, made entirely from sustainably sourced wood."

Diageo press release: "...100% plastic free and expected to be fully recyclable. The bottle is made from sustainably sourced pulp to meet food-safe standards and will be fully recyclable in standard waste streams."

So it's not biodegradable or compostable, but it is recyclable. It doesn't use "plastic", but some component of it presumably does not degrade. So for any chemists: what wood derivative isn't technically a plastic, but is waterproof and does not decompose?

----------------

[1] https://twitter.com/JUST/status/1068686120995643392

beenBoutIT5• 6 years ago

More than waterproof, to securely contain the ethanol in the whiskey it needs to be solvent proof. Sounds like a fluoropolymer coating that isn't technically considered plastic, although it could be glass or aluminum.

jml7c52• 6 years ago

I think the lining has to be wood-based. The strongest "official" statement is the Pilot Lite press release, and the phrase "bottle, made entirely from sustainably sourced wood" seems too definite to weasel out of. Of course, it is an industry that deals in contortion of language and meaning.

eel• 6 years ago

I'm not a chemist, but the material is likely based on cellulose which is commonly derived from wood pulp. Plastics and fibers made from cellulose are petroleum free. The word "plastic" is pretty loosely defined, so they may be using "100% plastic free" to refer to anything that is free of petroleum. If they are using "plastic" more strictly, then I would guess they are using something along the line of cellulose nanofibrils.

forgotmypw173• 6 years ago

Until stated otherwise, I'm going to assume these paper bottles will be plastic-lined, like milk "cartons", and so just as non-biodegradeable and non-recyclable.

Most of the time I've seen a switch from glass to plastic or "not plastic", the real reason is to cut down on product loss due to glass breakage en route, which is pretty big.

ergwwrt• 6 years ago

Yea and glass is recyclable too

SenHeng• 6 years ago

In Japan, liqour is sold in milk cartons. Why doesn't the rest of the world do so?

https://i.imgur.com/dD0NB1A.jpg

ApolloFortyNine• 6 years ago

Some liquor is sold in milk cartons.

Having been to Japan, I saw plenty of glass bottles in the liquor stores/7/11s.

dkdk8283• 6 years ago

What a joke. Paper isn’t a suitable container for long term storage of liquid. Paper straws are also a joke. I carry a big bundle of plastic straws in my car now.

Diageo to launch Johnnie Walker whisky in paper bottles

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