EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-airlines-eu/eu-safety-agency-suspends-pakistani-airlines-european-authorisation-for-six-months-idUSKBN2412MT

by 8bitsrule • 6 years ago

285 134 6 years ago

reuters.com

AdamJacobMuller• 6 years ago

good commentary on blancolirio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G62sSwC4t_g as usual

redis_mlc• 6 years ago

I watched the video - fair coverage.

The importance of being on top of licenses and other paperwork is that if you can't get the paperwork right, how can you get the rest right?

Some other notables:

- India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan

- South Korea has CRM and sim evaluation issues with ex-military crews (resulting in the SFO crash)

- SFO has struggled with ILS maintenance in the past decade. (Foreign air crews expect to do ILS approaches, not visuals. See SK SFO accident above.)

- African operators have problems with cabin crews opening doors after landing during taxi to let thieves steal luggage, etc. as the airliner is moving!

- Australia had an issue with drug smugglers accessing luggage. Hope that's resolved.

- Philippines had an issue with airport staff inserting bullets into luggage, then extorting tourists. Resolved after numerous news reports.

t0mas885• 6 years ago

The SFO case is interesting, because it's not just "foreign crews don't like visual approaches". It's because the US is commonly using visual approaches kind of as a loophole to reduce separation. All major carriers require that crews use the ILS (or RNAV) as a backup to a visual approach if it's available. But by clearing for a visual approach the controller is no longer required to keep the planes on approach separated.

I know a few European airlines that encourage their crews not to accept visual approaches in the US and request an ILS approach instead, because it's safer.

Europe has solved the same "we need more planes per hour" problem by allowing a reduced 2.5nm separation when both planes are established in the localizer and are radar monitored by the controller.

As a pilot I prefer the European way, because it's more structured and has a few more safeguards. The US method puts the problem with the pilot, who has far worse means to judge separation than the controller

godzillabrennus• 6 years ago

Philippines still has the cash fees/bribes scam for all when you fly out of Clark. After you pay for the ticket, and checking you bag, you have various cash fees to pay as you get through security. Woe is you if you didn’t bring cash as you’ll be unable to board unless you pull cash out when there.

chetangole• 6 years ago

what is the source of your statement - _"India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan"_

siddlv• 6 years ago

India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan

Can you provide a source for this?

galtwho2• 6 years ago

you should provide sources for your list of notables, atleast for extraordinary claim like the first 2

nutrifacs• 6 years ago

I have been reading hackernews for a number of years, but I have created an account just to reply to this comment

blancolirio is not a good, nor trust worthy, source.

Nearly every word from this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mampv8DdHlU - is, some would argue, stolen, word for word, from an article by The Air Current

pycbr12• 6 years ago

Hope the world never finds out how we get our driver's license.

robin_reala• 6 years ago

They know already. A perennial topic of annoyance for US immigrants in Sweden is that their US licence is only valid for a year here, then they have to retake their test (unlike immigrants from the EU who get to convert theirs automatically).

Svip• 6 years ago

Germany restricts US driving licences depending on issuing US state.

Denmark is apparently far more willing to let it slide, and anyone with a US driving licence can get it converted to a Danish one with just a doctor's approval. Although, in Denmark, their US licence is only valid for a month. But you don't have to retake the test. I am frankly a bit puzzled by this decision.

pmalynin• 6 years ago

Same annoyance for any Canadian that moves down to California to live / work.

vinay4273• 6 years ago

I think the OP was referring to Pakistan. More problematic in this respect are the UN accords that allow people from virtually any country to drive while visiting any other country, so you can have people from poorly licensed countries driving in a place where they're unfamiliar with the road system, language, etc.

The EU/EEA reciprocity is due to EU regulations, not the assumption that every EU country has better driving license standards than every other country.

In Switzerland, for instance, which is not part of the EU/EEA but has a variety of bilateral agreements, EU/EEA licenses and US licenses can and must be exchanged within one year (and these countries among a few others are treated equally), and there are no special provisions for EU/EEA license holders to keep their original license, etc.

boredpudding• 6 years ago

I honestly don't know how you thought this was about the US. The thread is about the EU safety agency and Pakisti airlines.

I also have no idea how this is even getting votes instead of being deleted.

skocznymroczny• 6 years ago

When I speak to people from countries like Indonesia or Morocco, they act surprised when I mention things like "driver's exam" to them, because apparently in such countries most people obtain their driver's licenses by an "expediting fee" to a government official or a police officer.

_-___________-_3• 6 years ago

The article makes only a passing reference to the recent crash, but serious pilot error ("incompetence on an astonishing scale" might be a better phrase than "error") appears to be a major factor in it. http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0

square_usual• 6 years ago

This was awful to read. The control tower repeatedly warned them about their trajectory, and even advised them to discontinue the approach. I can't even imagine how awful it must've been to those aboard who placed their trust in the pilots.

goodcanadian9• 6 years ago

In my opinion, ATC is also culpable (though much less so). They could have and should have ordered a go around, but instead, they re-cleared the airplane to land.

thepangolino• 6 years ago

The fact that nearly a third of Pakistani pilots are known to have a fake license might have something to do with it. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nearly-a-third-of-pakis...

Darmody2• 6 years ago

1 of every 3 pilots have a fake license in Pakistan. It's mind blowing.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/06/26/30-of-...

sfjailbird• 6 years ago

This was very overblown in the media. The issue was with re-certifications after changes to regulations in 2012, with most pilots (many with decades of experience) apparently preferring a bribe rather than cramming for months for the re-certification exam.

Still bad but it's not just random people off the street flying 777s.

throwaway_123513• 6 years ago

Does anyone have a good reference to competition vs compliance in the airline industry? US has a very competitive airline industry, and hence the incentives for regulations seems to be quite high.

On one hand, since Pakistan has a small fleet (60 planes across 3 airlines per wikipedia), I would assume it's highly competitive and there isn't any room for error/bribing. It's also possible that it's very competitive so not much incentive to invest time in getting a license?

It's also quite odd that Pakistan has really stagnant airline industry while almost all other economies have growing airline transporation. It was 9.63Mn in 2016, and down to 6.88Mn in 2018. Per https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Pakistan/Airline_passengers....

baybal24• 6 years ago

Heavily subsidised gulf carriers (many of which were founded by ex-PIA cadres...) have ate the lunch of the few Pakistani private carriers. PIA used to be nation's pride from its better days, so it's politically hard to rectify it when people with statist sentiment now run the establishment.

Just like Pakrail, and PSM, PIA will be kept afloat, and safe away from privatisation.

Khan's administration took down Sharif, and Punjabi old money people, now come Pathan old money people, and people with even stronger conviction that having a state job legitimately entitles them to run state companies like a family business.

Answerawake• 6 years ago

Just out of curiosity. How has Kahn done in your opinion. I don't follow the news too much but I am curious. It just seems like with Pakistan it is impossible to get an objective unbiased opinion anywhere of how things are really going.

throwaway_123513• 6 years ago

Thanks! Just out of curiosity, do the gulf carriers keep PIA in high regard and have a friendly relationship or they are continuously trying to bring it down?

The whole "we have grounded people with fake license" sounds like someone knew about it previously, and they are conspiring against PIA. I don't think PIA would be aware of fake licenses and keep them as well? or it took them just a few weeks to find out people with fake licenses?

Jdam• 6 years ago

If this doesn't apply to the UK as well, it is not enough. I would like to see a flyover ban as well, as PIA flies through the EU to the UK.

I'm following the aviation industry closely and there are plenty of reports every now and then where PIA flights don't respond on radio anymore, triggering fighter intercepts. It is assumed that those pilots are oftentimes either sleeping or just don't bother because of their ego, which was built in their former careers as military pilots.

I don't want to have PIA planes crashing into others or falling on my head.

aembleton• 6 years ago

Following the EASA’s decision, the UK Civil Aviation Authority said it, too, was withdrawing PIA’s permit to operate from three of its airports, as required under law.

“PIA flights from Birmingham, London Heathrow and Manchester airports are suspended with immediate effect,” a spokesman for the UK authority told Reuters.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-airlines-eu/eu-s...

newsbinator• 6 years ago

triggering fighter intercepts

Also this costs tax money. Why spend the money on intercepts when you can ban the people causing the problems?

VBprogrammer2• 6 years ago

Only on paper. Let's face it if the pilots weren't flying intercepts they'd need to be flying training missions. Anyway, the sunk cost of buying, maintaining and operating fighter jets is so high that the marginal cost of a mission is a bit of a wash.

Bobbcatt• 6 years ago

I don't want to have PIA planes crashing into others or falling on my head.

Even with sleeping pilots, you still are order of magnitude more likely to die by a car than by a plane.

dividedbyzero• 6 years ago

I guess that's technically correct, but it seems a little pointless; with sufficient negligence, accidents are a virtual certainty, and those who come to harm in such an event would find little solace in that knowledge.

In that sense, I don't want PIA planes falling on my own or anyone else's head, land, or property, anywhere in the world.

There's no reason to allow pilots and airlines to behave like that, and lots of reasons to sanction them very harshly if they do. After all, who's to believe they're current on their maintenance if they can't even make sure pilots respond when hailed?

qtplatypus• 6 years ago

And it’s regulatory actions like this that ensure that air travel is safe.

occamrazor4• 6 years ago

And doubly so if your concern is a plane falling on you from the sky.

rbrtdrmpc-• 6 years ago

Not to sound too harsh, but I’m pretty sure many country would rather blast those planes with rockets than wait them to do any harm, just talking knowing how it works in my country, Italy, and all the counter rocket facility deployed on our borders. I’m just saying that because i have no info what’s the deal with other countries

goatinaboat• 6 years ago

Playing devils advocate but if PIA pilots really are that bad why wasn’t the accreditation of the certifying authorities withdrawn long ago? What I mean is why didn’t this show up before in the accident statistics? Or were the Western aviation authorities turning a blind eye to it and their hands are now forced by this public revelation?

If civil engineers in a particular country were all fraudulent and buildings were collapsing that would surely be noticed. Or fraudulent surgeons and people dying.

EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

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