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galtwho

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here is another indicator of bad faith from Economist since you are all in on thinking critically. Since it it paywalled , I have outlined it https://outline.com/mumxhq

** True, the official death toll has fallen steadily for the past month, to half its peak of over 4,000 a day in mid-May. But evidence continues to accumulate that the government’s numbers represent a disturbingly small fraction of the real figure. This discrepancy does not just mean that the true level of India’s suffering has been glossed over. It has made the crisis worse, for instance by causing authorities to underestimate demand for oxygen and drugs.

News organisations including The Economist, as well as independent epidemiologists, have speculated that India has suffered perhaps five-to-seven times more “excess deaths” than the official number of covid-19 fatalities, currently just over 355,000. ***

The GoI press release has said that the methodology used by Christopher Leffler is not used anywhere else to estimate deaths.

You disagree and back it. Can you point out where this is accepted practice.

Using occam's razor. If cases & Deaths as 5-7 times, then this would be easily detectable, especially as the second wave dies down as per official figures.

So at peak the cases were 350,000 per day officially, as per economist it is over 2 million. This week the cases are 65k, so then it must be 380k cases as per economist. Same for deaths, officially 500 deaths and should be 3000 deaths as per economist.

Where are all these invisible cases & deaths?

If as per economist there were all these 5-7 times extra cases/deaths, the need for O2 would be far greater. There has been no crisi on that side for weeks now. Only for a 2 week period did capital Delhi have shortage due to the mismanagement of the state govt there that was pulled up by the courts.

So you are willing to consider opinion polling and patchy insurance claims( in a country that has minimal insurance coverage) that compared India with US figures over official figures that are collated by heath authorities.

It is far more believable that US media that has persistently painted India in negative light wants to continue the practice even when there are reasons to state facts as is and risk India being shown in a positive light.

I have already give you one data point where NPR pushed a untruth that you conceded. That was not even bad faith, direct fakery.

Is this how one thinks critically?

I have no problem if you want to believe fake news but lets drop the charade that you have no option other than trusting Economist or that they have a good track record. Information is easy to get in this day and age.

It is your laziness that lets such media spread fake news by appealing to your biases.

There's a lot of indicators of bad faith in the OpIndia article, but I don't see any in the Economist article.

claim was it is true and nothing fake there, so you did a strawman there. Since that is true, it shows economist as acting in bad faith in best case scenario.

Opindia is reporting on Govt of India rebutting the Economists argument. These are not opindia arguments, they are paraphrasing GoI's. So the below part you quoted is a paraphrase of GoI

"However, the entire analysis done in the article was based on ‘estimates’ based on randomly selected numbers"

See actual press release here

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1726521 and the twitter post here https://twitter.com/drharshvardhan/status/140367805453529088...

I am reproducing part that shows Economist acted at the least in bad faith and you have continued on same basis by claiming that you checked out their research and back it over the actual data given out by experts in field of health and agency that collates the actual data

***

The unsound analysis of the said article is based on extrapolation of data without any epidemiological evidence.

Studies which are used by the magazine as an estimate of excess mortality are not validated tools for determining mortality rate of any country or region.

The so called “evidence” cited by the magazine is a study supposedly done by Christopher Laffler of Virginia Commonwealth University. An internet search of research studies in scientific database such Pubmed, Research Gate, etc., did not locate this study and the detailed methodology of this study has not been provided by the magazine.

Another evidence given is the study done in Telengana based on insurance claims. Again, there is no peer reviewed scientific data available on suchstudy.

Two other studies relied upon are those done by Psephology groups namely “Prashnam” and “C-Voter” who are well versed in conducting, predicting and analysing poll results. They were never ever associated with public health research. Even in their own area of work of psephology, their methodologies for predicting poll results have been wide off the mark many times.

By their own submission, the magazine states that ‘such estimates have been extrapolated from patchy and often unreliable local government data, from company records and from analyses of such things as obituaries’.

Union Government has been transparent in its approach to COVID data management. As early as May 2020, to avoid inconsistency in number of deaths being reported, Indian Council of Medical Research has issued ‘Guidance for appropriate recording of COVID-19 related deaths in India’ for correct recording of all deaths as per ICD-10 codes recommended by WHO for mortality coding. States and UTs have been urged through formal communications, multiple video conferences and through deployment of Central teams for correct recording of deaths in accordance with laid down guidelines.

***

In early March, India's health minister declared the pandemic over,

NPR has not given any source for this claim and if you look at the Minister's twitter timeline for the period , it shows the opposite.

https://twitter.com/drharshvardhan

Or check out the timeline of the ministry he heads

https://twitter.com/MoHFW_INDIA

All proof there shows that he & ministry was calling for people to be careful, warning about increasing cases, updating on vaccines & health protocols. Not the actions of someone who declared it is over.

So that is a explicit lie/untruth from NPR and your comments also show that you find it easier to believe that India is hiding deaths at unimaginable rates than India has done exceedingly well given its challenges.

Other publications which carried out the same news

https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/story/extrapo...

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/national/reports-o...

https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/india-news-unsoun...

My friend's kid wrote to ABC ( Australia) to complain about their one sided take on a issue about a country that she knew about.

They wrote back saying they are not obligated to present all sides of a story.

ABC parades itself as unbiased to boot and is funded by taxpayers.

well you have not been following the news then.

Main opposition party filed a case claiming a document released by the Key party in power is fraudulent.

Twitter marked tweets referencing that as manipulated media.

Police investigating the case arrived at twitter offices to get information that made them arrive at the conclusion.

ref : https://www.rediff.com/news/report/delhi-police-says-twitter...

This in twitter's view if attack on Freedom of speech. Shocking logic.

Twitter has to appoint a nodal grivevance as per IT laws enacted 3 months back.

Facebook, Google etc have done so, twitter hasn't

ref : https://www.rediff.com/news/report/twitter-still-not-followi...

Govt responded via press release to the drama twitter was enacting.This was one of the key slap downs "Twitter Inc., a USA based private company, in its communique says that it seeks "constructive dialogue", "collaborative approach" from the government of a sovereign democratic republic to "safeguard interests of the public". It is time that Twitter disabuses itself of this grandiosity and comply with the laws of India."

ref : https://www.livemint.com/news/india/twitter-seeks-to-undermi...

Here is the ZoHo founder exposing twitter's stand

ref : https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/facebook-twitter-...

And to cap it off, here is video of French PM Macron elaborating which democratic states should have the final say on free speech, not private orgs ref : https://twitter.com/vinay1011/status/1397030936353513473

not your problem if someone signed contracts with made up dates and did not allocate resource to meet those dates.

if dates can't be changed, you push back and ask for more resources to be hired.

As an analogy, a house can be painted by 1 guy over 10 days or 10 guys in 1-2 days.

Someone making it easier for the current educated english speaking Indian to know about their history and culture is a guy called Jaggi Vasudev also known to his fans as Sadhguru.

His organisation Isha has 2 ashrams, one in Missippi, US and a bigger one in Coimbatore, India.

Seems to have quite the following as well as is evident by some of the discussions from diverse[1] set of people

1. https://www.youtube.com/user/sadhguru/videos

Accused of Muslim genocide

has been exposed as a furphy time and again. The claim deliberately ignores trigger for the riots to mischaracterise the events as a planned one. The immense anger was caused by the burning of a train compartment of Hindu pilgrims by local Muslims who blocked the exits and set fire to the train.

Master in harnessing FUD tactics and social media:

what is this, you are accusing him of using the tech tools at everyones disposal competently and extrapoloate it to FUD tactics

Friend of big corporates

Making sure businesses have a better environment to function is now bad. Cutting down red tape is now helping corporates?

Doesn't believe in democracy:

so a murder is one state that he isn't in control of is pinned on him as anti-democratic. This in a country of 1300 million people.

looking at the progress in the investigation and the freedom to highlight the case shows democracy is alive and thriving.

Modi was falsely accused as is evident in Supreme court acquiting the frivolus argument and his election to PM of the largest democracy in the world.

so it is a red herring to keep bringing it up.

I am a minority NRI and can state clearly that no harassment as you state happens. None of my kith and kin have reported any such incidents on the ground.

Unless you can state proof for the anti-democracy claim, it is clearly baseless. With proof you have him praising Putin and Xi and wondering if that is possible in USA. Nothing even remotely similar for Modi, so what gives?

He is nationalist leader if he was a fundamentalist then he must have done things representative of that in his 5 yrs in power. Like make India a Hindu nation

He is as accused as Obama is accused of killing thousands of Iraqis.

again if he doesn't believe in democracy, there must not have been elections in India after 2014, which is patently false.

So try again with why western media hates him and always paints democratic India in a negative light even in conflicts against dictators.

> Why do we allow the government propaganda machine to fool us?

my current working theory is that US citizens have helped their Govt hone the tactics earlier. The propaganda machine was then turned at other countries( US enemies and even allies)

And US citizens fully supported it then and even now.

I met a guy in Chennai, India who sold Ultrasound machines some time back. On enquiry I learnt they don't sell any of the big brands cause they cost in millions and can't be afforded by most semi-urban or rural health facilities.

Instead the one they sell is locally made and costs around 10K tops. He did claim there is not much tech on these devices and I took him at his word then. It makes sense now.

The largest democracy India has e-voting.

Works fine for them. Why are other countries not going the same way.

There is a move in India to get all voting machines to print out your choice which the voter can drop into a ballot box.

Not sure if that is implemented yet. Surely something like that will work fine.