Should Holocaust Deniers be Heard?

http://popecenter.org/clarion_call/article.html?id=2493

by yummyfajitas • 15 years ago

33 50 15 years ago

Jun84• 15 years ago

Very interesting post, I would have loved to have taken this course, if only to write a an essay giving an unequivocal "Yes" to this question.

It would have been great if he hadn't placed all the emphasis on the Holocaust but also discussed two other well-known, widely believed denials: one scientific ("Americans didn't land on the moon") and one very recent ("9/11 was actually planned by the US government").

cakeface2• 15 years ago

I'm curious whether your "Yes" is because you yourself deny the holocaust or because you think that it is important to hear the other side of the story.

I will admit myself that while I don't actually believe it to be true, I often take the denial side of the "Americans landed on the moon" argument. It is always fun to challenge people on their long held beliefs and make them rationally defend their position.

I've never personally found the holocaust denying evidence to be at all worth parroting even for the benefit of theoretical discussion.

kenjackson3• 15 years ago

I often take the denial side of the "Americans landed on the moon" argument. It is always fun to challenge people on their long held beliefs and make them rationally defend their position.

Do people actually try to defend it, or just write you off?

If someone tells me they're a holocaust denier I'm not likely to try to prove it happened. The evidence exists if they cared to spend 5s looking. I'm much more likely to just say, "OK", and then avoid at all costs, since frankly I'm a little afraid to be around people with such beliefs -- since the belief that it didn't happen is also strongly associated with "and if it did, it would have been justified".

Manfred• 15 years ago

I've never personally found the holocaust denying evidence to be at all worth parroting even for the benefit of theoretical discussion.

That's a stance a lot of intelligent people take. The result is that people who are bad at ‘critical thinking’ hear more nonsense than well thought out argument.

simpleTruth• 15 years ago

It is always fun to challenge people on their long held beliefs and make them rationally defend their position.

The view point that only one side needs to defend their position is not rational. At the same time you don't need to look at every piece of evidence. If you can't come up with 2 or 3 strong pieces of evidence to support your side and the other side can then you have lost.

Jun84• 15 years ago

Short answer: Because it's important to hear the other side of the story.

However, I think it is important to elaborate on the reason why (also, the combination of overcast skies this morning, working on EC2 until late last night, and the fact that there's not much work to be done at the moment has induced a certain degree of drowsiness and desire to delve into such topics as this, rather than more C++).

Someone makes an assertion X. The question here is, how should we respond when someone claims ~X. I think the answer lies in how, if any, ~X affects our understanding of X.

If, X is an axiomatic claim, then hearing ~X may be interesting intellectually but would have no bearing on X. A well-known example, of course, is Euclid's fifth axiom. If someone declares that this is not correct, it has no effect whatsoever on Euclidean geometry. I view religious claims, such as "God exists," "God is all-benevolent", to also belong to this category.

Now, if X is a scientific statement (or theory), e.g. "no body with non-zero mass can travel faster than light in vacuum", the principle of bivalence applies (simplistically speaking), so X is either true or not. In this case, hearing ~X is not only important, but vital.

These two were the easy cases. Analysis of statements in other disciplines ("soft sciences", to use a slightly derogatory term) such as history, sociology, etc. is muddied by at least two factors: (i) There are many more factors that are hard to isolate and test in any setting, (ii) the concept of "truth" has been challenged in liberal arts as a condescending construct of dominant culture. In these cases hearing the argument for ~X may lead to a synthesis with X, whereupon you arrive at a "better", joint understanding, X'. So, again hearing ~X is important, but leads to a slightly different outcome than the scientific case (those who deny that each newer scientific theory gets closer to "truth", e.g. Kuhn, would not agree that there's a difference).

My totally subjective view is that, although all three are historic statements, "Americans landed on the moon" should be analyzed by the scientific approach Moon landing is a well-defined event and there are few factors to take into consideration that would make its detection difficult.

"US government was behind 9/11" is on the other end of the spectrum. The assertion is unbelievable (in fact, I find it ridiculous) but the many complexities of the situation and definition of terms (e.g. do you think US's activities in the Middle East precipitated the events, does that count as "was behind"?) would make one want to engage with proponents of these views, just to see if any important facet of the whole set of complex events is missed. I might learn and advance my understanding of the event from such discussions. (Sadly, this almost never happens, generally such people are politically motivated ideologues who parrot useless propagandist nuggets of falsehoods).

The interesting question is: where to place the Holocaust denial in this spectrum? Personally, I put it much closer to the moon landing argument than the 9/11 one.

This, however, by no means be the basis of making it illegal to voice such opinions, as it is in some European countries or censure them. My motto is simple: Everything should be discussable and analyzable, there should be no intellectual taboos whatsoever in a modern society.

ErrantX2• 15 years ago

The problem that exists is that none of the issues are binary:

- "Yes allow it a voice" doesn't define what form that voice takes (taught as an alternative, and example of denial, etc.)

- Holocaust denier is a broad term that covers those who outright deny anyone died to those who question things like the scale, or the culprits/responsibility, or other facts.

- Some Holocaust denial is simply anti-Semitism in a new package, some of it is rather more genuine questioning of history

And then throw in the fact that overwhelming public opinion is that the holocaust did happen largely as recorded in mainstream history books and you have a situation where "Yes" isn't a very meaningful answer.

I guess that is the point of the paper; to reach that conclusion critically.

I wonder how much your response is born out of critical thinking, and how much it is born out of an ideal that people should not have their voices repressed just because they hold a view that is diametrically opposed to the mainstream. And if the latter is true (I don't wish to make assumptions :)) I wonder whether you would write an unequivocal yes after taking this course, it being apparently designed to address such attitude.

As I read it, the point of this post is to say "students are useless at critical thinking until taught it, and the way I do that is to introduce them to the idea of holocaust denial and force them to make their own critical assessment". Extending that to a general idea of teaching holocaust denial without the accompanying tutoring in critical thinking is another consideration entirely :)

It's an interesting debate for sure.

kenjackson3• 15 years ago

What shouldn't be heard? For example, should reincarnation be heard? What about telekenesis or other psychic abilities? What about more off the wall things like murder is justifiable if you don't get caught? Or that cheating is actually a good thing if you can pin the fallout on someone unsuspecting? Or that most Blacks are werewolves who need to be staked in the heart for the sake of the world? Or that WWII never happened, but was invented by Marvel comics to sell Captain America? Or that Santa Claus is not only real, but its he who delivers the babies, since he killed all the storks?

At what point do we say, that point of view has so little evidence that hearing it is a waste of time, given time is a limited resource?

yummyfajitas2• 15 years ago

What about telekenesis or other psychic abilities?

Actually, I think studies purporting to prove psychic abilities are real is something that students should spend time on. Remember this article?

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2068105

I skimmed the study in question. There are no obvious methodological flaws, and by the standards of psychological publishing, it was worthy of publication. It's my opinion that ALL students of psychology should read it critically, and understand why it doesn't prove that psychic abilities are real. (Then they should apply that same skepticism to the rest of psychology research.) It's a great exercise, just like doing easy integrals, or spotting flaws in proofs that 1 == 2.

Jun84• 15 years ago

The answer to that question should be always "nothing!" You have chosen examples in jest, to show how some assertions are unbelievable/silly; but other assertions, that you or I might find almost as silly are taken seriously (or were taken so until recently), e.g. "Do blacks/women/(other stigmatized group) have equal intelligence as man?", "Should we kill/neuter people with serious psychological illness", "Should we perform lobotomies".

Lack of discussion is never a good sign.

lamby• 15 years ago

It's difficult to talk about this subject without mentioning the Faurisson affair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair

_b8r0• 15 years ago

This is a very good article that really gets you thinking.

I would have to say that Holocaust deniers should be heard, and measured based on their arguments. To shut these people out before their case is heard is (to me) completely irrational. I might not like such people, but if these people can present a rational argument that challenges my view of events, then I've gained something. Either my view holds up on the basis of rational debate and my view is reinforced, or I'm forced to question it by a greater logic. To remove the voice of holocaust deniers is to remove that opportunity.

ugh• 15 years ago

The essay question seems to be mainly about teaching. Things that are taught have usually been through some sort of evaluation process. This evaluation process is the right place for the voices of deniers’. If they manage to make a convincing argument their views should certainly be presented to classes.

One of the things I would probably emphasize if I were writing such a essay is that there should be no automatic process of exclusion but also no automatic process of inclusion. Evidence matters and if deniers don’t have it their views and voices have no place in classes.

nihilocrat2• 15 years ago

The mountain of evidence pointing towards the Holocaust actually happening means that we should indeed let deniers speak but any position they take is so indefensible that it's more an exercise in observing human stupidity than considering two sides of an argument.

kloncks2• 15 years ago

My main problem with this is the fact that it's actually a crime punishable by jail sentences in many places in Europe.

Call it an observation of human stupidity, sure. But, last I checked, we don't jail people for being stupid or saying stupid things.

edit: Something interesting I just thought of.

A lot of Islamic & Arab countries have laws in place that punish "insulting Islam". A lot of these "insults" (see Jyllands-Posten) seem to come from Europe, who advocate a huge amount of free speech. How can the laws ban one instance of hate-speech and not another? Is Satire or Humor allowed?

Again, if anyone can shed light on this matter, I'd appreciate it, but in countries like France or Germany, are there laws in place to protect against all kinds of hate-speech or just specifically Holocaust Denial?

mduerksen2• 15 years ago

Yes, in Germany, open Holocaust denial is only one form of Volksverhetzung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung)

The reason that this is punished is not stupidity. Publicly spoken words are never just an personal opininion, but have the potential to influence other people, and can lead to violent actions. In that case, the german constitution holds that the safety and dignity of the targetted people (e.g. an ethnical group) outweigh the personal freedom of an individual.

This trade-off has to be made somehow, and I would agree with the german constitution: personal freedom ends where other people get physically hurt or degraded.

tomjen33• 15 years ago

The interesting thing is that it is actually against Danish law to "threaten, taunt, etc" people based on their race, color, national or ethic origin, religious belief or sexual orientation (straffeloven paragraph 266) if the messages have been said (or printed) in public or with the intent of wide distribution. In 2003 four people were given suspended sentences for violating this law.

In addition it is a violation of paragraph 140 to publicly taunt or make fun of the belief or (religious) practices of any legal religious society. Nobody has been punished under this paragraph since the late 30.

But you are free to deny the holocaust or join a nazi group.

thevectorist• 15 years ago

With the relatively recent rise of 'Obama is a secret muslim!' and various other idiotic statements, I question the ability of a lot of people to dismiss these ideas as stupid.

nihilocrat2• 15 years ago

So as some of these comments suggest, yes, perhaps we need to actually teach people how to recognize outright stupid ideas even if it seems obvious to you and me.

TomOfTTB• 15 years ago

Which plays into the author's main point which is you deny young children the opportunity to hear how stupid these theories are when you don't discuss the matter. Because you can't really silence a school of thought. All you can do is drive it underground.

So by abolishing discussion you actually create what can be seen as proof of the false theory. Parents who believe this stuff tell their kids "it's a Jew cover-up" and use the censorship as proof. And since society has stopped giving the other side of the story those kids are left to believe the lie. Meaning the end result is we've made a ridiculous theory stronger by handing a whole new generation over to it.

Next thing you know there's some poor University Professor in a class full of kids who believe this ridiculousness because they've never heard the other side of the story.

Jun84• 15 years ago

Agreed, a form of intellectual vaccination, if you will. And as with vaccination, it will fail for some (or lead to wrong beliefs) but in general will be very beneficial for the society at large.

Note that what really turned the public against McCarthy in his communist witch hunt was to experience first hand his vileness: "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

kloncks2• 15 years ago

Are there any other notable examples of free speech that are banned by Western-European countries?

I believe Holocaust Denial is officially a crime punishable by jail in many places in Europe; was just wondering if the laws there had any similar stances on other "free-speech" issues?

Luc• 15 years ago

Hate speech: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

roel_v5• 15 years ago

This is a widely documented legal issue, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United... for a list of exceptions on 'freedom of speech' in the United States. Most of these apply in Western European countries, plus then some.

tomjen33• 15 years ago

See my other comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2337030

Alex39173• 15 years ago

"The reason for the capstone paper is to prepare students to recognize the methods employed by malicious or unhinged deceivers: 9/11 truthers, religious cultists, UFO abductees, and so on."

Like ad hominems?

roel_v5• 15 years ago

What group listed do you think are not malicious or unhinged deceivers?

Alex39173• 15 years ago

Of the ad hominems listed, which do you think are actually groups?

tomjen33• 15 years ago

All of them?

They may be wrong, but that is very, very, very far from malicious.

iterationx• 15 years ago

He forgot homeschoolers and climate change deniers.

So using his critical thinking skills he arrived at the accepted conclusions of mainstream society? What tremendous value he offers! He could have just told people to watch television.

jhamburger• 15 years ago

One problem I have is that Holocaust Deniers, I think, realize that they aren't going to 'win' the argument, they are mostly looking to plant the seeds of doubt. They're not trying to convince you the holocaust didn't happen, but they're trying to convince the public that the evidence is debatable in order to weaken their opponents position. So giving them a voice is basically the same as letting them win.

burgerbrain3• 15 years ago

You can't "give someone a voice", they have that right be default.

raganwald• 15 years ago

Denying the holocaust is right down there with claiming that the Earth is 6,000 years old and that humans saddled dinosaurs. Or that the Earth is flat. Or heliocentricity. These arguments have already been debunked. Repeatedly. Meticulously. Leaving no doubt as to their falsehood.

Raising these issues again and again, year after year, without presenting some new startling evidence to re-open the case is a lot like a convicted killer asking for a new trial without presenting any evidence of new information or errors in the original process.

We are not saying that Holocaust denial should not be heard. It already has been heard, it already has been presented for debate, and it has already been defeated soundly and without doubt by rational persons.

At a certain point you turn to the Holocaust deniers and say, "Your argument is wrong, and this has been conclusively demonstrated. Your position will not merit re-examination and re-debate until you come up with new information and new evidence, and the onus is on you to present it. Until then, your argument has already had its time, has already been heard. It does not need to be heard again."

We passed that point decades ago. So my statement is yes, Holocaust denial is an argument that should be heard and it has been heard, it does not need to be heard again.

yummyfajitas2• 15 years ago

Claiming a proof that 1+1=1 is right down there with claiming the Earth is 6,000 years old. This argument has already been debunked.

Raising these issues semester after semester, without presenting some startling evidence to re-open the case is a lot like a convicted killer asking for a new trial without finding new evidence or errors.

At a certain point you turn to the 1+1=1 crowd and say, "your proof is wrong, and this has been conclusively demonstrated. It does not need to be heard again."

We passed that point over a hundred years ago. Thus, the argument that 1+1=1 has been heard, and does not need to be a homework assignment in any future "Intro to Proofs" classes.

See, this is the flaw in your argument. The conversation here is about exposing students to these arguments as an intellectual exercise. The relevant question to ask is not "can someone debunk holocaust deniers/debunk the proof that 1+1=1?". The relevant question is "can this class of students debunk holocaust deniers/spot the flaw in the proof that 1+1=1?"

(Details on 1+1=1. http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57110.html )

Semiapies• 15 years ago

I don't get the downvoting - this is pretty much the point of TFA, and it's valuable. Ideas like these gain support in the first place because people don't have the critical mindset to see what's wrong with them.

svlla• 15 years ago

Mostly I think it's more a cultural quirk of some European countries and I don't really care all that much. What bothers me more is stuff like this: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014271060_b...

ajju• 15 years ago

Everyone should be allowed to speak, because America has freedom of speech, but no, they should not be heard.

Hearing implies actually entertaining their absurd and ridiculous claims that have been repeatedly proven false.

dkarl• 15 years ago

Giving them a voice is inevitable, and beating them isn't hard. Just provide point-by-point rebuttals and refer students to them. At some point, after checking five or six stories, the doubter will realize the deniers are either intellectually dishonest or eager to remain ignorant. The real damage is when someone hears two or three provocative ideas from deniers and never learns anything more. Especially if people refuse to engage with them.

I put in my dues exchanging emails (over a period of months) about biology with a white supremacist. He was a very bright guy just starting a law career, and he didn't reveal his ideas to many people. I think he was impressed that I was able to provide point-by-point responses to the claims he made about human evolution. He was very well read in racist literature, especially the older stuff from a time when more sophisticated people were still openly taking the position that non-white races were biologically inferior.

He was under the impression that a lot of the points from those old books were still unaddressed by "mainstream" biology, and the fact that I was able to provide him with straightforward answers and pointers to further reading discredited a lot of his current sources. I don't think I cured him of his racism, but I did convince him that biologists weren't as stupid or brainwashed as he thought they were, and that his sources of information did not stand up to modern ideas, because they were obsolete in some cases and simply ignorant in others. His tendency to believe in the superiority of white people remained, but I destroyed his belief that the issue had already been scientifically settled and was being ignored or suppressed by current biologists.

Addressing the issues honestly is the only way to make progress. It's sad that much of what is written about untouchable political issues is written to gratify people who are eager to agree with the author and just need some authoritative reassurance. "The Mismeasure of Man" is an egregious example. If it included white supremacists (or just people who learned towards believing in racial inequality) in its target audience, if it addressed itself to those people with an intent to persuade them, it would have been a lot more useful. Of course, it would not have won accolades -- it would have creeped people out, because people do not want to see those ideas taken seriously. What they want, and what "The Mismeasure of Man" gave them, is reassurance that those ideas have been conclusively dealt with and can be ignored. But that doesn't actually accomplish anything except providing some peace of mind to non-racists. The goal should have been to shift the ideas of people who are racist.

DjDarkman2• 15 years ago

For me the Holocaust is just like God. People tell you to believe it just because they said so.

I neither deny nor confirm the existence of this so called 'Holocaust' because I wasn't there when it happened. And we all know history is written by the winners. I have witnessed first hand how much lies are contained within those history books, that's why I simply don't care and don't believe anything they say.

Also a lot of people died for stupid reasons not just the jews, I don't know what makes them more special than anybody else.

Downvoters: please elaborate before just downvoting because I hurt your beliefs.

DjDarkman2• 15 years ago

> Holocaust denial is inconsistent with critical thinking.

Wow, if I don't believe in the 'Holocaust', I'm not just an antisemitic, I'm also stupid.

> If the mountains of evidence (records, photos, films, testimony, artifacts) which converge to support the currently accepted interpretation are not sufficient grounds for belief in its reality, then what would be sufficient?

Since people who dare say that they have doubts about the 'Holocaust' are instantly labelled as antisemitic, I doubt that we will ever see evidence that does not support the 'Holocaust'.

What baffles me about this 'Holocaust' story is that it defies logic:

The Germans rounded up hundred thousands of Jewish people and killed them, while fighting both the Russians and the USA, just because they were evil.

You can conjure up mountains of evidence, but it still has plotholes.

Also in order to even begin understanding such a complex thing we require continuity. Why would the Germans do such a thing?

Example:

A killed B.

We should convict A.

But wait:

A killed B, because B wanted to murder A's wife C.

It's not the same.

You may have evidence that A killed B, but that's still not the full story.

So my conclusion is: the 'Holocaust' is not something you can easily prove or disprove of, it's too complex, we will never know what really happened because it's impossible to question the 'Holocaust', without being labelled as an antisemitic.

Should Holocaust Deniers be Heard?

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