Vermont’s DMV has been selling personal data to private companies since 2004

https://vtdigger.org/2019/11/25/how-vermonts-dmv-makes-millions-selling-personal-information/

by Keverw • 7 years ago

229 85 7 years ago

vtdigger.org

glitchc2• 7 years ago

Perhaps it’s time for a federal privacy law if even local governments want in on the analytics action.

nfoz• 7 years ago

Devil's advocate, why not let Vermonters vote in their own privacy law for their own government?

paulddraper7• 7 years ago

At the risk of getting too political on HN, the knee-jerk reaction to national (sometimes even international) solutions for every problem is tiresome and unwise.

Some problems necessitate that, but most do not, this being one of them.

I can't find the source, but I read a strong argument about the difficult of moving between nations, states, and municipalities, and the conclusion was that the more localized the legislation, the greater freedom people have. "Vote with your feet"-type deal.

imgabe• 7 years ago

It's unclear if a Federal law dictating what states can do with information would even be constitutional. This is not a power enumerated to the Federal government in the Constitution.

ddingus• 7 years ago

What other States allow their DMV to do this?

paulddraper7• 7 years ago

I believe most states do this. Or least, Vermont is not unique.

kevin_thibedeau• 7 years ago

Pretty much all of them. NY DMV shares information with the private, foreign company running the 407 toll highway in Toronto. Canadians from other provinces have better data protection that prevents such sharing.

tshannon• 7 years ago

Most of them do, I believe.

https://www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/evjekz/the-california...

I know MN and WI do.

pdq• 7 years ago

Pretty much all states sell this data. It's vital for auto insurance companies to be able to get up-to-date driving records for policy quotes.

miketery• 7 years ago

The issue isn't for insurance companies (where there is consent).

“Nobody — from agencies like the DMV to large corporations like Facebook and Google — should be profiting from sharing or selling personal information without meaningful consent. Congress must get serious about ending practices that violate the privacy of ordinary Americans,” Sanders said.

rhizome2• 7 years ago

So for quotes, that's one query. What justifies the rest?

dmitrygr4• 7 years ago

When my bank wants my 1040 for refinance request, I fill out a form allowing the IRS to release it to them. No reason the DMV couldn't do the same. If an insurance company wants my info, I can fill out and sign a form allowing the DMV to release the info to them. Else, they don't need it!

whalesalad• 7 years ago

If it means a pleasant experience at the DMV... sign me up.

hinkley3• 7 years ago

I like you, you’re funny.

A pleasant experience at the DMV... hahaha!

hinkley3• 7 years ago

If you’re in Washington State, chat up the DoL clerk the next time you renew your tabs. They’re not a government office, and they’ve been legislated to only make a couple bucks off of each tab or plate.

If memory serves they make more money off the convenience fee for paying with a credit card than they do off of the licensing.

They basically don’t have a way to turn a net profit. This is exactly the sort of situation that would make someone sell customer data.

QuotedForTruth• 7 years ago

I think the situation that makes the DMV sell their customer data is privatization of the DMV. Why should the DMV have to turn a profit? If they weren't at some point turned into a profit seeking entity, there would be no motivation to make money off their customers personal info.

hinkley3• 7 years ago

Indeed, that’s probably the bulk of the problem.

Although we also have police depts padding tickets because some of the revenue comes back to them. You put a measure on anything and people will game it.

Keverw6• 7 years ago

Wonder what other states have done privatization... I know I was reading in Texas, driving schools are allowed to give you your driving exam, so you can do the written test online and the driven test with the same driving school you bought your lessons from. I thought that was kinda cool and unique. So be useful if you are an adult who never got their license but don't really have any family or friends to let you use their car for a test. I know someone who refuses to let their adult child have a driver license as long as they still live at home because they fear a rise in insurance rates due to their age. I think i'd be cool if high school had driver ed again like in the old days.

dmitrygr4• 7 years ago

there is no motivation to keep data secret. What we need, is some serious liability for heads of agencies or companies that lose or sell it. Then they will be motivated to keep data secret like it should be. Something reasonable, like 10 years in jail for each piece of data lost/sold without consent. That'll motivate them

Keverw6• 7 years ago

I think that's a bit draconian, sounds like a way to ensure only the Facebook's and Google's of the world hold a monopoly as I could see that to discourage entrepreneurs and new startups.

sukilot• 7 years ago

Public information for sale:

The database shows where people live, what cars are registered to them, whether they have criminal records, and their driving histories.
The only information it won’t provide on any condition is driver medical information and Social Security numbers, according to DMV officials. Photographs are also not for sale.

_dubbs_yo• 7 years ago

There was a follow up by the VT Governor on this. He instructed the DMV to stop the practice for at least private investigators.

Federal law requires some of this information be for sale to insurance companies, trucking companies, others.

https://vtdigger.org/2019/12/06/scott-tells-dmv-to-stop-givi...

chadlavi2• 7 years ago

Federal law requires some of this information be for sale to insurance companies, trucking companies, others.

man, that is incredibly f*cked.

astura3• 7 years ago

Insurance companies use your driving record to determine premiums. Trucking companies use driving records to determine who they are going to hire/fire.

cptskippy2• 7 years ago

I don't know how the laws are structured but there is a legitimate need for information to flow both ways between automotive insurance providers and State DMVs.

In many States, like GA, Insurers must report vehicle coverage changes to the State. If you get pulled over, Police Officers do not need to ask for insurance cards and can cite you for lapsed coverage.

At the same time, insurers want to know for liability purposes all drivers list at policy residences and when a driver's license is suspended.

Perhaps that information should be free with stipulations on how it can be used.

Spooky234• 7 years ago

Why? Do you want a driver without a CDL or endorsements driving a hazmat load?

dsparkman• 7 years ago

Florida made $77 million in 2017 alone in selling its DMV data to bill collectors, data brokers, marketing firms, and insurance companies.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90376510/floridas-dmv-is-selling...

choward3• 7 years ago

They hardly made any money. That's only 4 dollars per resident. That's ridiculous. I'd rather they just tax me another 10 dollars than give away my information without consent.

NullPrefix• 7 years ago

Don't give them ideas or they might just do it. And then sell your data anyway.

paulddraper7• 7 years ago

Not all residents drive.

But in any case, I doubt many people would think $4/yr for info that's probably already available.

adrr• 7 years ago

Wouldn’t insurance companies have a legitimate need for DMV data like verifying the insured driver has a license?

trillic• 7 years ago

There are systems for this use case in place. They don't involve selling data in bulk however.

Spooky234• 7 years ago

They probably lose money. They sign contracts so prevent unpaid sharing of identity data outside of law enforcement.

Other state entities buy this data back from information brokers.

madcow2011• 7 years ago

Some of this is necessary, I think. When you get an auto insurance quote, companies like ChoicePoint (LexisNexis) are what provide driver history (accidents, violations, insurance fraud info, etc).

So it's not like they're Google/FB/Amazon using this data for ad purposes.

Obviously, not all of the money comes from carriers like this, but I wanted to point out that some of it is legit.

choward3• 7 years ago

What's to stop those same insurance companies from using it for marketing purposes?

VectorLock• 7 years ago

I wonder how many DMVs do this. I bet its way more than people think.

I went to a tire retailer website and they were able to look up make/model car by having me put in my license plate number. I thought that was pretty creepy - if that have that, what else do they have?

wopian• 7 years ago

In the UK the make (i.e BMW) and the colour is public information.

https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/?locale=en

Spooky234• 7 years ago

Probably more than you think.

There are private networks selling near real time location data from LPRs. There are probably physical retailers that can map you from the cash register to your vehicle.

77pt77• 7 years ago

There are a bunch of websites with this information available for a very small fee.

It's incredible you can find names, addresses, phone numbers, emails, properties, cars owned, etc.

Most of the questions asked for identity verification are useless if so much information is effectively public.

And then there are soft credit checks...

My impression is that there is a huge blind spot in americans regarding these things, they not only don't care but are hostile to anyone pointing the problems.

I don't see this improving in the future.

korethr• 7 years ago

DMV officials say the vast majority of the revenue comes from insurance companies and businesses who buy information about their employees’ driving histories.
However, the department has also allowed law firms, private investigators and out-of-state corporations to buy or access personal information about Vermont drivers, including where they live, the cars they drive, their driving records and their criminal histories.

None of that strikes me as improper, with the exception of maybe out-of-state corporations, and in that case, it would depend on what the corporation was and what they intended to use the data for. Whether the data remains in possession of the corp after its original intended use (and for how long) and whether it is kept only for the original stated use or made available to other portions of the corp for other purposes would play into whether I considered that in improper or not.

IOW, the case of selling data to corporations is gonna be a case-by-case "it depends".

As for insurance companies and private investigators, I think it is right and proper that such entities can look up things like address, criminal history, or vehicles owned. While it seems that every entity gathering up any and all possible data about people will claim that all of the data gathered serves a legitimate business need, in the case of entities like insurance companies or investigators, I think that claim is more likely to be true than not.

m463• 7 years ago

California does too.

I wonder if the new california privacy law allows you to opt out somehow.

krallja2• 7 years ago

Illinois DMV definitely sells names and addresses. They misspelled my name in a very unique way on my drivers license once, and I’ve received junk mail to that name ever since.

oops• 7 years ago

Did you ever present that license to anyone though? It could have been them that sold your info. e.g. concert venues who scan licenses, etc. Not that I doubt the DMV did it!

krallja2• 7 years ago

No, I noticed the error while walking out of the DMV and went back in line to have it corrected. The physical card never left the premises!

rubyfan• 7 years ago

As is every other DMV. Also voting records. Chalk it up to bankrupt state governments.

DN20• 7 years ago

I am surprised that VTdigger would report this, since they typically side with the state instead of the individual, and aggressively solicit donations from unions & corporations that profit from the corrupt status quo in Vermont. The executive director is a corporate fascist who worships the state and censors like crazy: the board routinely breaks their own posting rules to permit or remove comments in accordance with their political agendas. Pointless whining is always welcome, but hard facts and practical solutions are prohibited. Here's an example of censored comments from the current article:

"We don’t just let anybody have it."

Smith is obviously lying here: if the data is so easy to get that nearly 800 companies already have it, there is simply no way to monitor & regulate what is done with that data. Some of these companies are false fronts, and the data is being used for criminal purposes — including fraud & industrial espionage. The public should refuse to support the governor in the next election until he prosecutes Smith for every stolen record in the DMV database. I recommend that we offer him a deal: 20 years in prison for a guilty plea, versus a life sentence for a quarter million deliberate violations of the fourth amendment (which amounts to high treason.)

Federal law requires DMVs to provide driver information to government agencies, and sell it to certain businesses...

The correct phrasing here would be "federal policy", not "federal law": A federal statute or regulation which violates the federal constitution is not law. The powers of the federal government are enumerated in Article I, and all other powers are reserved to the states by the tenth amendment. When the states created the federal constitution they did NOT create a federal police jurisdiction within the states. The federal government has no lawful authority to demand personal information on state residents, or dictate state DMV policy.

Vermont’s DMV has been selling personal data to private companies since 2004

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