Ask HN: What have you done to improve your desk ergonomics?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21623319

by varrock • 7 years ago

67 74 7 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I've been having elbow pain recently and decided to do an audit of my desk ergonomics. It turns out, my desk was too high to enforce proper typing technique. I've been looking into some split keyboards, as well as vertical mouses.

What have you guys done as professionals that sit at a desk most of the day to improve your ergonomics?

GrumpyNl• 7 years ago

Installed 5 screens.

mtmail• 7 years ago

I'm curious how 5 screens improve ergonomics.

csdvrx2• 7 years ago

Instead of moving your fingers, to get the information you need you just move your eyes!

Big screens help a lot

muzani2• 7 years ago

At some level I feel that more screens become less ergonomic.

buboard2• 7 years ago

You ll get a weird color from all that screen tanning

meerita• 7 years ago

I have high desk setup, to the point my elbows don't float and don't force my shoulders go up. The position is really confortable and I also have the monitors positioned at the leve of my face. Very confortable.

brudgers3• 7 years ago

Got rid of the desk. Laptop in lap. Lap in Ikea Poang with footstool. Caveat: “as a professional” isn’t in the spec because I can write my own spec. Good fortune no doubt.

It’s been nearly four years since the change. I still get into ergonomic ruts. But climbing out of local ergonomics minima is easier because there’s no changing configuration. Adjusting happens as quick as recognizing an issue.

It’s shifting my weight. Moving my feet. Scrolling with another finger. Repositioning the laptop. Tilting the screen.

There’s no proper typing position that includes a mouse. Tracpoints are ok. Touchpads kind of aren’t too bad. But keyboard shortcuts are the only way to maintain a typing position.

MobileVet2• 7 years ago

I do love those chairs with the footstool... but isn’t that rough on your neck? That is my casual ‘kick back’ setup for an after bit I don’t think I could do it more often than once a week

brudgers3• 7 years ago

Yes, sometimes it’s rough on my neck. Others rough on my elbows. Sometimes an index finger or thumb.

When I recognize a problem it’s easy to make mitigating adjustments. It’s easier now that I have four years experience. But it was easier four years ago when I started than it had been in the previous twenty five years.

Over a long period of time any one position will become uncomfortable. I’ve been choosing tools to broaden the spectrum of alternatives and allow change quickly and easily. But little changes are usually enough.

_virtu• 7 years ago

Asymmetric setup. I keep more room on my dominant hand so I can write. It also adds as a way for people to drop by my desk and use the spare room for shoulder surfing.

elorant• 7 years ago

Replaced mouse with trackball and got an ergonomic keyboard. Using pads for both of them.

MobileVet2• 7 years ago

This really is an under appreciated post. If you spend your career hunched over our your wrists bent, you will be in pain.

Get everything aligned properly and you give your body a fighting chance.

This is a pretty solid info graphic https://www.startstanding.org/proper-workplace-ergonomics/

hprotagonist• 7 years ago

+1 on a split keyboard. I really like mine.

brenden23• 7 years ago

I like having a large, flat surface, without a bunch of clutter on the desk. It's important to make sure the desk and chair fit well together, such that your elbows and arms can rest on the table without stress. I use the Apple Magic keyboard and trackpad which lay flat on the desk, making it easy to get a comfortable position with minimal stress. Having limited clutter means I can easily move the mouse/keyboard around, switch between sitting and standing positions, and stay in a comfortable position. Additionally, I use an adjustable arm for my iMac which does not occupy desk space.

My standing desk: https://www.fully.com/jarvis-adjustable-height-desk-bamboo.h...

My adjustable chair: https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/office-chairs/...

My adjustable monitor arm: https://www.fully.com/accessories/monitor-arms/esi-edge-max....

anishjoni• 7 years ago

Do you feel the chair does justice to the price? How is your experience so far?

brenden23• 7 years ago

It's good, but if you can find something that fits you well for less money I'd go for that instead. If you buy Herman Miller furniture you're definitely paying a premium for the brand.

A popular alternative are the Steelcase chairs, which are less expensive and (supposedly) comparable quality.

justboxing2• 7 years ago

Do you feel the chair does justice to the price?

Was thinking the same thing. Also what about the $300+ Monitor Arm. First time seeing someone pay an arm and length for an arm.

alanpca• 7 years ago

I have a motorized sit/stand desk from uplift, an aeron chair, a monitor arm, the Microsoft 4000 ergonomic keyboard, and an anker standing mouse. Before this setup I would run into a lot of RSI problems but this combination has fixed everything.

enitihas• 7 years ago

I am considering getting a standing desk. Can anyone who has tried both standing and sitting desks share their perspective on their pros and cons?

brudgers3• 7 years ago

I used a standing desk for a few years. Then I had ACL surgery and it wasn’t viable for a while. Standing desks are worth trying. Set one up on the cheap and give it a go for a couple of months. You’ll learn something and maybe it will be great for your work.

I tried going back, but putting the keyboard in my lap was a much better ergonomic improvement for me.

noir_lord3• 7 years ago

I custom build mine out of marine ply and scrap scaffolding pipe (a few years ago, don’t have it anymore), it was handy at times but I ended up sitting down more than I expected, basically any time I had to really focus I’d sit down.

I think it’s because I have 30 years of body memory saying programming should be done sat down, I know others who’ve used them and like them so really it comes down to trying a cheap one and see how you get on.

house9-2• 7 years ago

Get a desk that is adjustable, you don't want to be standing all of the time. I try to switch between standing and sitting each hour.

Been using 'Geek Desk' for 8+ years, I think there are other less expensive options available these days.

Sitting kills my back because I tend to slouch, standing all day makes my feet hurt.

buboard2• 7 years ago

The adjustable from ikea was too wobbly for me. I now just use boxes. The key is to switch , once you get used ti it you cant sit too long anyway.

dgrabla• 7 years ago

I use a split keyboard[1], with a trackball[2] in between the keyboards. I like to spend a few hours in the morning standing, and when I finally get tired, I adjust the desk all the way down. All fixed desks are way too tall for me (1.67cm). Remove the armrests - your hands should be floating over the keyboard. I use xwrits with 1minute pause every 25 minutes: enough time to focus your eyeballs out of the screen and move the hands a little bit to prevent RSI.

[1] Matias Ergo Pro [2] Kensington Expert

Jormundir• 7 years ago

I went down this road towards the beginning of my career. I tried split keyboards, ergo mice, keyboard tray, new chair, etc. There are a couple things that matter in ergonomics, mainly that your chair is at a height where you can set your feet flat on the floor comfortably, and that your forearms are the same height as the desk.

All the products made around ergonomics are total BS, full stop. Your body is not built to sit at a desk all day, and you can't fix that with an overpriced keyboard. Take breaks from time to time and go walk around a bit.

Get yourself setup so there's no pressure on your arms and legs and call it good. Don't waste your money on ergo BS.

SeriousM• 7 years ago

True. A mouse ND keyboard you like, the screen about a armlength away, a chair that doesn't hurt you and that's it.

muzani2• 7 years ago

I wouldn't call it total BS. Ergo doesn't make you comfortable. Ergo reduces discomfort. There are tools that are very uncomfortable and tools that are only slightly uncomfortable. They're not too expensive either; MS Ergo 4000 keyboard is getting lots of recommendations here for a reason.

dasKrokodil• 7 years ago

Your body is not built to sit at a desk all day Take breaks from time to time and go walk around a bit.

I agree with the quoted parts, but disagree with the rest. In the time you do spend typing, an ergonomic keyboard (one of the few that actually deserves that title) can be beneficial. It sure is for me.

wilsonnb3• 7 years ago

I use keyboards with an 84 key layout so that my mouse can be closer to my keyboard than a standard tenkeyless keyboard allows.

I went all in with an ergodoz ez split keyboard at one point but it ended up being too much effort to learn how to use.

Also tried a vertical mouse and hated that too.

Monitor risers of some kind are a must. At home I’ve got a dual monitor stand but at work I just used textbooks that we had lying around.

acdha2• 7 years ago

I switched to a desktop so my keyboard and screen are independently adjustable. Beyond that, I’m pretty close to Jormundir: no matter what you do, if it’s still being sedentary it’ll catch up with you - bodies didn’t evolve sitting in the exact same position for hours at a stretch. Taking breaks is important even if it just means you get coffee in smaller serving sizes.

gabcoh• 7 years ago

Speaking to your first point I am using my laptop at my desk and portably. At my desk I use an aluminum stand that raises the computer off of the table and into a more comfortable viewing position and I connect a portable mouse and keyboard. It is totally possible to comfortably use a laptop at your desk.

acdha2• 7 years ago

Definitely true: the key point is not having the screen be a fixed position from the keyboard however you accomplish that.

otras• 7 years ago

I’ve found success with the following:

- Proper desk height for standing and sitting to ensure arms are at 90* angle.

- Extended height monitor arms to ensure screens are up at eye level. This has been great for my posture.

- Split keyboard (kinesis) to ensure my shoulders are in a neutral, not rolled inwards position and my wrist angle is also neutral. I broke my collarbone when younger, and it’s very easy for me to not keep my shoulders neutral.

- Extended palm pad for keyboard to keep my wrists neutral. With larger hands my palms are pretty far from the keyboard, which makes it easy to have my wrists lower than my hands. I have the V3 attachment to the kinesis keyboard.

- Regular exercise and strength training.

- Avoiding working on my laptop as much as possible. The angle and ergonomics are just not nearly as good as my desktop setup.

tracer4201• 7 years ago

+1 on regular exercise and strength training. I think of my desk ergonomics as one part of the larger story on my general health. Exercise - both cardio and weight training or some resistance is crucial, as is healthy eating.

I’m kind of going off topic, but one other thing I’ve also done is reduce my coffee intake and replace coffee with plain water. It’s certainly helped my ability to think on my feet and avoid “brain fog” where I’m trying to think of a concept, a name, or just quickly answer or recommend something on my feet.

Keppl8R• 7 years ago

Fixed my shoulder issue on my desktop PC by adding a second Mouse, so I have one on both sides of my keyboard.

emerongi• 7 years ago

I just use an Ikea Poäng with laptop in lap. I've found that regular desk chairs and desks just don't work for me. Poäng-style chair or a recliner is what suits me.

cweagans• 7 years ago

Standing desk is a must, IMO. Also, something that will remind you to switch from sitting to standing and/or vice versa. For me, switching more regularly is more beneficial than just standing or just sitting all the time.

I also started using an Ergodox at my desk and that's helped a lot. Wrist pronation was really killing me, and now that's just not a problem anymore. I liked that so much that I got a second one for travel.

Also, make sure that your monitors are elevated to the right height so that you're not looking down. It'll help a lot with any neck pain you might be experiencing.

spodek• 7 years ago

Get up to walk around a lot, often outside.

wiseleo• 7 years ago

First I identified ideal heights for my display and input devices. I used the piano posture for guidelines because professional pianists have it perfected. I then added an ergonomic keyboard to further relax my hands.

splittingTimes2• 7 years ago

3M ergonomic mouse, Microsoft natural keyboard, monitor sits on a separate, lower desk behind my main work desk. I can sit up straight with my neck long and stretched and look down on the screen.

In 2008 I had very severe carpal tunnel syndrome for over a year. Then I found a clinic that had specialized in pain patients. They found out that the muscles my neck where shortened and weak. Neck is connected to shoulder is connected to arm is connect to wrists leading to my symptoms. Got a lot of exercises to lengthen and strengthen my neck. That fixed the wrist pains. Whenever they rise again I start do these exercises and it goes away.

My current construction site are the muscles that connect the legs to your hips/lower abdomen. They shorten too, due to the constant sitting position plus going by bike to work. This leads to back pains/slipped disks. Need to lengthen them as well.

lostdog• 7 years ago

Would you share what neck exercises worked for you?

splittingTimes2• 7 years ago

Pain symptom and cause have a non-local connection. A co-worker of mine was there too, same symptoms, but he had disfunctional pectoral muscles. So his exercises where different.

My exercises are hard to describe in words. I spend a week in physiotherapy at that clinic with 3 sessions a 1.5h a day, where they show you the exercises and correct your position.

I'll try to find videos for you.

GrumpiNerd• 7 years ago

I had horrible back pain when sitting at a desk. Raising the desk helped a bit but it was still uncomfortable. Now I just sit on my couch with a laptop most of the time, no more pain.

jedberg• 7 years ago

I've used a Microsoft split keyboard for 20 years.

I try to keep my mouse over the numpad on the keyboard so I don't have to swing the shoulder as much, and try to use keyboard shortcuts.

I have an adjustable height chair with a footrest under the desk so that my eyes line up with the top 10th of the monitor.

I also use a stand/sit desk when I can get one. At home I have a monitor arm that lets me stand, but it's a pain to move the keyboard and such so I don't do it much.

michaelrpeskin• 7 years ago

At a previous job, I had a great setup: I had a drafting table but I set it up where the front was higher than the back - not dramatic, maybe only a couple of inches. That way my elbows could be on the desk but they weren’t forced at 90 degrees or pitch my wrists up. Basically my arms were slightly open more than 90 degrees and my wrists were always relaxed. I loved it. My new place just has a regular sit-stand desk and it’s been bothering me. I’m thinking of asking for a drafting table. I’ve never found a more comfortable arrangement. When I need to sit and think, I use a stool rather than lower the table. It works for me since I come from chemistry and we always had stools at the lab benches, so it just feels natural for me.

Namrog84• 7 years ago

- I've been using the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for however long its been since it replaced the 3000 or whatever predecessors. Probably close to 20 years now. I use this same keyboard at work and at home.

- I keep a small stack of napkins(between 10 napkins to about 3/4" of napkin) under my left elbow. For some reason the elbow hitting the hard desk hurts, and having a stack of napkings is both useful to use napkins from (and occasionally replace to re-up the stack). It helps a lot on the left elbow.

- I use a Razer Deathadder mouse both at home and at work.

- I use a foot rest both at home and at work (they are quite a bit different, due to different desks/chairs).

- I use monitor arms at home and at work. Also I keep my monitor up higher than most people do. Most people keep them WAYYY to low(at minimum, enough for my keyboard and typing to be able to go under them). It really makes a big difference when you can look straight on most of the time.

- I primarily only use 2 monitors. I've had up to 3 and 4 at one point, but noticed slight neck strain. But 2 does well enough for me. I use 2x 27" 1440 resolution 144hz monitors at home. And 2x 27" 4k monitors at work.

- I am super picky about chairs. When I last replaced my home one, I sat in probably 150 different chairs in 10 different stores. Ended up ordered some high end chair($1000) and it didn't feel quite right. So I returned it and ordered another a different make/model(About $600) that works for me. Extra wide, proper butt cushion(no cross bar if pushed on hard) and works for my back and neck. I don't mention name/brands here, because everyone's body is different and you just need to find something that fit/works for both your body and price ranges.

- I am also super picky about the settings on the chair. Again, personal preference.

- Lastly, at home I have a large mousepad (approximately 20"x18") and at work, I have slightly larger.

I am on either my work or home desk/computer probably 14+ hours every day of the week. And haven't had any back, neck, or joint pains since about 20+ years ago, when I first started customizing setup, finding what worked, and switched to split keyboard and stuff. If something even feels SLIGHTLY off. I make sure to change it, a lot of people can get used to things 'slightly off' but don't really quite notice how much it can wear on you after a long time.

noir_lord3• 7 years ago

Fellow 4000 addict, I simply won’t use anything else at this point, either work supplies one or I take one out my reserve.

Normal keyboards feel like typing in a straight jacket.

nickjj• 7 years ago

I'm at about 20 years of using a computer with no pain or strain and from really early on I've always ensured my forearms are always parallel to the ground.

From there you can stand or sit.

When sitting I used to use chairs that had arm rests so there was no pressure or strain. When standing I sort of do the same thing, except there's less forearm support.

The most recent picture of my desk set up is at: https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/build-your-own-8x4-foot-white...

When I stand straight my eyes are roughly 1/3rd of the way down from the top of the monitor. This set up seems to be working well after a couple of years.

I also think what helps is that I'm not a home row typist. This is probably an unpopular opinion and maybe totally wrong but I personally find it way more comfortable if I'm moving my hands around regularly instead of just locking everything in place for extended periods of time where I only move my fingers.

ghastmaster• 7 years ago

I added highly adjustable monitor stands and chair. Monitor stand is the most important.

noir_lord3• 7 years ago

I switched to the Microsoft Ergo 4000 years ago and my issues where largely resolved, it’s a great ergo keyboard at a great price and while they do wear eventually I’ve yet to have one actually stop working in any way.

I have two new in box in case they ever stop making them.

fest• 7 years ago

Do check the new ones- when I ordered it for my current work I had to return two of them in a row- space bar had only one button/side working. I'm still using the one I bought ~10 years ago at home though.

KriptoNYC• 7 years ago

If you have carpal tunnel issues, I can highly recommend the RollerMouse RED. It’s not a trackball, but a unique rolling bar controller that I’ve been using for several years now with none of the RSS issues I used to have. Not the cheapest option for sure, but the least physically stressful input device I’ve ever used.

harlanji• 7 years ago

2002 onward: indirect full spectrum lighting. Got a lamp off think-geek that adhered to monitor. Set it up at home and requested it in offices.

2006ish onward: Kinesis Freestyle 2 split keyboard. Owned 2ish, had each employer buy one.

2007ish onward: f.lux screen temperature adjustment, relative to sun.

2012 onward: Standing desk with tall chair in wheels or felt pads. At home and at software eng / devops jobs.

2014 onward: floor mat at standing desk, like at a cash register. Firm enough for wheels on chair to roll on and be stable.

2016 onward: thumb trackball mouse. Sometimes places bedtween segments of split keyboard.

2016 onward: good shoes. Memory foam, strong builds, maintainable materials.

leafo• 7 years ago

I ditched regular desk chairs for an Ikea Poäng many years ago. But then one day I realized that the Poäng was giving me lower back pain, so I ditched it. Now I sit on the footstool that came with the Poäng. (for the past 4 years now, I'll do cross-leg, squat, any kind of sit you could do on a floor)

My keyboard is an ErgoDox EZ with the lightest key-switches I could find (bought them separate, soldered them on), and my mouse is placed in the middle. I'm happy with other keyboards though, my general keyboard requirements are:

* ortholinear

* as many modifier keys on the inside as possible (eg CTRL/SUPER/SHIFT for pointer and thumb, instead of using pinky)

* split layout

I use a 3M adjustable keyboard tray (atk91le) screwed into my desk so I can easily adjust position for whatever posture I'm in.

If you sit too long without moving you will hurt, so I make a point to switch up how I sit, or get up from my desk frequently. I really like the footstool as a chair because it's like an elevated floor, there are many ways to sit on it.

If my lower back is tired (no backrest on a footstool), I have a Nada Chair that I'll sometimes strap into.

I have scoliosis, so I think I've had to deal with lower back pain much more than the average person my age.

azaras• 7 years ago

Keyboard:

1. Microsoft Sculpt: https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar...

2. Ctrl pads (especially for emacs users): Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7zvw2b/my_weapon_aga...

ScoutOrgo• 7 years ago

I got the ultimate hacking keyboard [1] this year and it has helped with wrist strain immensely.

[1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

chewxy• 7 years ago

My set up : https://imgur.com/SGbDiEy

I had to take a couple of days off work a few months ago because my elbow burned everytime I typed.

Took a number of consultations with physiotherapists before I settled on this. Happy to announce being painfree now.

My home setup is similar

csdvrx2• 7 years ago

I have a gamers wide screen, equivalent to 2 screen glued together, and 2 pair of glasses: one for when I work on my laptop or read books, the other pair for everything else.

A couple of months ago there was an discussion here on how an ophtalmologist spending 5 minutes on A/B testing your prescription may not give the most optimal result. That was right.

kichik• 7 years ago

Installed a simple keyboard shelf [1] under my desk so my full size keyboard and mouse are my elbow's height. It only took 4 screws and was a huge improvement to my desk's ergonomics.

[1] https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PKVV5S/ref=ppx_yo_dt...

sethammons• 7 years ago

My desk surface is as close to knee level as possible, so about two feet off the ground. The desk is an electric standing one, so I can regularly stand or sit. My chair allows for full support of my hamstrings and let's my foot sit flat on the ground. I try to maintain a vertical posture. I use a Microsoft eurgonomic 4000 keyboard. My monitor sits high enough to be at eye level. I also do power and Olympic lifting several mornings a week. Additionally, I have a forearm gadget for rolling out the muscles there called an Armaid Extreme Foam Massage Tool with Orange Ball Myofascial Release Tool (Trigger Point Therapy for RSI in Forearm and Upper arms).

tomtomau• 7 years ago

Strength training 3-4 days per week

deepaksurti• 7 years ago

Can anyone here tell why these sit-stand desks don't come with (optional) adjustable keyboard/mouse trays?

Doesn't the tray make the desk surface more clutter free?

hrgiger2• 7 years ago

I strongly recommend daily one minute power ball, when I was having slight pain after 3 day of using powerball all went away, yet still I am not expert so I could only recommend with caution. Also I make sure my chair arms at the same levels as table. Additionally I am using Microsoft natural ergonomic keyboard and Logitech master mx mouse but I am not sure if they are doing any good.

friendlybus• 7 years ago

The master MX or any heavy mouse with some input lag/smoothing can be better than a lighter, faster claw grip over 8hrs in my experience.

sprflyprgrmrguy• 7 years ago

what is a power ball? Search results are just giving me lottery info.

hrgiger2• 7 years ago

Yeah sorry, I didnt wanted to share any link, a better keyword match would be 'powerball gyroscope', to be more specific myn is https://powerballs.com but there might be variations

tboyd47• 7 years ago

So you realized that your typing surface is too high. You have 2 options:

1. Lower your typing surface.

2. Raise your seat.

#1 can be handled with a clamp-on keyboard tray (get one with negative tilt), and for #2, try a drafting stool (don't buy until you sit on it yourself).

I had the same problem. For my office, I have both the tray and the stool, and for my home office, I just have a normal chair + a rolling adjustable desk surface that goes low enough to be used as a typing surface.

I also use a split keyboard (Kinesis makes great ones) and I'm in the market for a vertical mouse right now.

Don't listen to the people who say ergonomics is all bullshit and you just need to stand up (or exercise or whatever). Your equipment makes a difference.

ubu7737• 7 years ago

A level sitting surface won't allow your spine to curve naturally.

I don't know why, but most people are not aware of kneeling chairs or the benefits they provide to back posture. There is literally no way to get healthy curvature in a sitting posture without lowering your knees below your hips.

quickthrower2• 7 years ago

In addition to desk ergonomics:

* See a physio for the elbow, do all the exercises they prescribe.

* Get up and walk often (get a drink of water for example).

* Walk as much as you can outside of the working day, at lunchtime etc.

* Stand up as much as possible, e.g. at meetings, on the train/bus, to counteract the sitting. Sit/stand desk might help if you can have one.

* This probably wont apply, but consider if you need reading glasses to help you see the screen without leaning in.

Murdej• 7 years ago

I had the same problem. Aikido exercise helped me. An everyday warm-up and stretch will do better than ergonomic equipment.

BrandoElFollito• 7 years ago

I sit on a large ball (19€ at decathlon in France).

It is great because I keep bouncing, rolling my hips, pushing my lower back forwrds. Sometimes I lay with my shoulders on the ball which helps to relax as well.

Ask HN: What have you done to improve your desk ergonomics?

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