A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

http://nautil.us/blog/the-simple-dutch-cure-for-stress

by dnetesn • 7 years ago

79 66 7 years ago

gttalbot• 7 years ago

This is why people motorcycle as well, fwiw.

mxuribe• 7 years ago

As much as i loved my motorcycle when i had it - unfortunately, like most everything else in the U.S., it costs money to own a motorcycle, while walking is...free. But yeah, if one can afford it, riding a motorcycle is really fun and quite good at relieving stress.

mobilemidget• 7 years ago

imho, this only works when walking on a beach, ideally cold but sunny

degski• 7 years ago

De zon schijnt er is geen reden

Met rotweer en de harde wind

Te gaan fietsen met dat kind

tgv2• 7 years ago

The more bloggers, the more nonsense.

A growing body of evidence suggests

Ah, weasel words. How telling.

jgalt212• 7 years ago

Yeah, editors should dis-allow the usage of such terms without citing examples in the text or footnotes.

smetj• 7 years ago

Agreed!

mc32• 7 years ago

This seems to mirror the idea of forest bathing also known as nature therapy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_therapy

imvetri2• 7 years ago

The simple Indian cure for stress - Meditation. a.k.a watching your breath

wadkar• 7 years ago

This is not a substantive comment. You could’ve taken a bit more effort and provided some thoughtful comments on how meditation can help you be in touch with your emotions etc.

Simply saying meditation equals watching your breath doesn’t help make your point.

Finally this thread is about the dutch culture and how they deal with stress. Appreciate it, even if it doesn’t align with the point you’re trying to make.

imvetri2• 7 years ago

I'm sorry. Should have thought about it for a moment. I am annoyed by the way articles are published. If something is simple, why wouldn't someone put it in a short one liner than providing a detailed explanation?

This is not just about this article, I have been following space/tech/economy. Nothing really provides facts.

For example:

Scientists may have found new variety of black hole - Does it really add to any kind of knowledge / is it a breakthrough. not at all. finding something called black hole, but finding varieties of it, is not. Its just a copied version of someone else's finding and finding some tweaks.

Now to tech, - What good is it doing? New tech comes, couple of years later flaws made by the organisation comes out or they get hacked and users details get leaked. Impact is too much and they escape with an apology letter from CEO. Apology email + fined amount is still a good investment for the leaked data. thats how they see.

list goes on for every field.

Who is the first culprit of all these? the intellectual? Why to race everyone ? What the point ? Doing good isn't. But why money comes into picture in doing good?

Why would anyone encourage doing all these?

If something seems to be flawed, I'm trying to share my opinion in most polite way but for this one It went off the control. Apologies. Lesson taken. Thank you.

tluyben2• 7 years ago

Walking/hiking through nature (without wind or cold) works fine as well against stress, at least in my experience (and I am Dutch; I find it far too cold there to walk usually).

stevesimmons2• 7 years ago

Nonsense! The actual Dutch cure for stress is to claim you have "burnout" (they use the English word), and then take 6 months off work while being paid 80% of your salary.

Honestly, after working for 6 years in the Netherlands, I don't know of another country that has such good working conditions [1], while having so many people in low stress professional jobs taking time off for burnout. There seems zero social or professional stigma about it.

- In Australia, I knew of just one person, a teacher. There they called it a "nervous breakdown".

- In the UK, I struggle to think of any, after 9 years working here.

- In the Netherlands, probably 30% of my Dutch colleagues had had time off for burnout at some point in their career.

[1] At the Dutch bank I worked for, most of the Dutch staff worked 4 day weeks: take a 10% pay cut, have Fridays off, and nominally work an hour longer on the other 4 days. In practice, they still arrived late so they could drop their kids at school, left early for same reason, took a full hour for lunch, and most days everyone stopped for 30 minutes mid-morning because it was someone's birthday. Nearly the only people who worked full 5-day weeks were the expats.

goranb• 7 years ago

Seems like they have it figured out. Time for the rest of us to catch up.

gok• 7 years ago

Sounds like few working hours leads to burnout.

theraido2• 7 years ago

Work and an NGO, expats are never in on Fridays. Just us IT folks, working our 40 hours.

Making a specific amount of hours or working hard doesn't cause burnout most of the time.

jlengrand• 7 years ago

Burnout is only directly related to the amount of hours worked.

jypepin• 7 years ago

This. I worked in the NL for 3 years and this was the hardest thing to accept / adapt to when I arrived. The Dutch have a completely different approach to work, which to us American, could seem like they just don't care.

I still remember dealing with a real estate agent (known to usually be hustling in US) who wouldn't work weekends or after hours to have us visit a house we wanted to buy. Nonsense! :)

And I also know a lot of people who had burnouts - while working in conditions that seemed... very good and not stressful.

maxerickson• 7 years ago

How is the compensation for the real estate agent structured?

The housing market there is so tight I would think they don't really need to ever chase a buyer.

Fnoord3• 7 years ago

And I also know a lot of people who had burnouts - while working in conditions that seemed... very good and not stressful.

Yeah, it is always other people who seem to have great working conditions. It is strange that other people even get stress.

The book "Bullshit Jobs" sings a different narrative, and these are seemingly everywhere. Real estate agent, is one of these (FIRE sector).

amoron• 7 years ago

There seems zero social or professional stigma about it.

Actually, I think there is some stigma but we are prohibited from discussing it publicly due to modern values. Burnout is bound to have some negative impact on career opportunities as one is unlikely to regain their status and responsibilities on return.

flyGuyOnTheSly• 7 years ago

That seems fair.

If you are apt to go missing for 6 months every other year for whatever reason, an employer wouldn't invest a lot of expensive training in you.

0xfaded• 7 years ago

I've heard the same thing said behind closed doors about paternity leave in Denmark.

openstep• 7 years ago

American here living in the Netherlands for the past seven years.

The one thing I've noticed about folks taking these burnout sessions is that some absolutely take advantage of the system. Multiple people have told me firsthand that they're on burnout just because they want to be. Not because they're burned out. It goes so far that they lie during the mandatory therapy session provided by their employer in order to stay on burnout. Feels a bit unfair for the companies that have to buy burnout insurance.

Having said that, I think it's a great benefit of working for a Dutch company. Assuming you really have a burnout! If you don't have a burnout but you don't want to work so much then go 4 days a week. This is super common in the Netherlands.

Anyway, Dutch society in general really care about the well-being of their people. I suppose a few people taking advantage of the system is just the cost of living.

ianai• 7 years ago

A reason I support things like that is, in part, the same reason Congress sanctioned OT above 40 hours of work. It incentivizes hiring more people.

RC_ITR• 7 years ago

I mean, what is “burnout” other than not wanting to work?

Maybe they’re just saying that to you because they assume (as an expat) that you don’t share their value system?

_oxvh• 7 years ago

In the Netherlands, probably 30% of my Dutch colleagues had had time off for burnout at some point in their career.

That sounds accurate, because a report released just this week found that about a third of all Americans suffer burnout in their jobs[0]. At least the Dutch are doing something about it.

[0] https://www.studyfinds.org/the-new-normal-over-a-third-of-am...

DavideNL• 7 years ago

14% of the Dutch have burn-out symptoms (1 out of 7) according to:

Dutch newspaper: https://www.volkskrant.nl/de-gids/hoe-opgebrand-is-nederland... which cites : https://www.volksgezondheidenzorg.info/onderwerp/overspannen...

Note that having burn-out symptoms is not equal to 100% burn-out and unable to work.

rnentjes• 7 years ago

This must mean nothing gets done right?

Guess again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...

Netherlands is number 5.

Udik• 7 years ago

That's the wrong measure, though: it's probable that productivity lowers with each further working hour, but you do still produce something. Americans still produce 10% more per hour and work 25% more hours.

isoprophlex• 7 years ago

Work smarter, not harder.

Kaotique2• 7 years ago

I worked in the same IT company for many years now and wile it's true that many people have experienced burnout and had time off. It really depends on the situation if they come back or not. In the Netherlands they have to offer a permanent contract after 2 years in the same company. If you experience burnout before you have a permanent contract then usually the person leaves the company. But if you are there longer, have a permanent contract and play an important role in the company then you usually return step by step, slowly increasing your hours and days back to normal over the period of a couple months. Just taking 6 months off without a return schedule sounds like a scam to be me and for most employers would put you on the track out.

Kaotique2• 7 years ago

Working part-time has become very accepted here in the Netherlands. And that is not only women but more and more men started working part-time now. Especially 32 or 36 hours is very popular.

markus92• 7 years ago

36 is fulltime in more and more sectors now (healthcare for example).

bbddg• 7 years ago

Exactly, most American workers don't have the luxury of taking an hour out of their day to go for a bike ride.

Another key difference in the Netherlands is that 84% of workers are covered by a collective bargaining agreement.

Workers coming together to make demands from Capital is the only way to achieve these working conditions.

newswasboring• 7 years ago

I work in Netherlands since the beginning of this year. Previous to this I worked in one of the biggest south east Asian companies. The culture shock was real. But over the year I realized how they get the same amount of work done as my previous colleagues. Another argument for "time is bullshit measure for knowledge industry". And from what I understand the burnout argument is valid and actually helps a team. I'm in a industry where small mistakes can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I would rather someone stop working rather than mess other people's work up.

the-dude2• 7 years ago

And that is why you had a very nice tax relief.

ta091119• 7 years ago

Yep. I'm an expat in the Netherlands and I've never seen a more relaxed working environment. It's great, and I have great respect for the Dutch for how they look after their well being, the beauty of their cities and their nature.

On the other hand, I have a feeling that most of the jobs here are proper bullshit jobs: from office jobs, where you'll find deluges of junior designers and copywriters and customer journey experts; to cafes, where 4 waiters are hardly doing the work of one; to supermarkets where there seem to be constantly more employees moving stuff around than customers.

Obviously there is a lot of money in the country. I wonder what will happen in case of a downturn: I have a feeling that if the money stops flowing, a lot of people will discover that their jobs weren't necessary at all.

tgv2• 7 years ago

There's a shortage of those workers, so that can't be true.

I do agree there are way too many people doing "something in communication", and that waiters don't always work very streamlined, to say it politely.

Fnoord3• 7 years ago

Nonsense! The actual Dutch cure for stress is to claim you have "burnout" (they use the English word), and then take 6 months off work while being paid 80% of your salary.

Which does not work very well if you don't earn much. Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot. If you earn a lot, you'll easier work hard. It is much easier, as your downtime (leisure time) involves less stress.

The whole system where you could work a while and then go "uitkering trekken" got on retour after it was indeed abused in the 70s/80s. It is extremely tricky to have a fair system without false positives and false negatives. Slowly but surely, the right wing governments have indeed drawn your narrative which hurt those who are in need.

There seems zero social or professional stigma about it.

As my (Dutch) partner had a burnout, and I witnessed this first-hand, this statement quite frankly angers me. There absolutely is social stigma and professional stigma around burnout. Nobody, in fact, understood her. They all thought she "had to man up", including her best friends, her mother, her sister, etc.

You know what causes stress? Emotional overload from work. Working in the night instead of the day. Being bullied. Being poor (including inkomensnivellering).

The thing is, that in your country, when people fail they are just regarded as weak or "not trying hard enough" (queue American Dream). No empathy, whatsoever. Here it is called for what it is: burnout.

miken1232• 7 years ago

Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot.

Not in the last place because they are highly subsidized by not having to pay any taxes over 30% of their salary. In return for that, they post not very insightful comments like this on HN.

Mocking people's mental issues in public literally costs lives. Hope the thread starter realizes that somewhere.

irrespective• 7 years ago

And yet despite all that gasp lost productivity (how dare people take care of their family!) the Netherlands is still a pretty nice place to live. Maybe the rest of the world should follow suit.

dang• 7 years ago

Could you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not post in the flamewar style to HN? We're trying to avoid that here.

mettamage• 7 years ago

If you know the term "uitwaaien" I'd say this rings pretty much true: "Meyer has lived in the Netherlands for more than 20 years and has come to specialize in the language, despite being a non-native speaker."

In all fairness, I haven't heard or used the word for a couple of years now, so not sure to what extent this is true: "She says uitwaaien is a popular activity where she lives—one believed to have important psychological benefits. “Uitwaaien is something you do to clear your mind and feel refreshed—out with the bad air, in with the good,” she tells me. “It’s seen as a pleasant, easy, and relaxing experience—a way to destress or escape from daily life.”"

sailfast• 7 years ago

Yeah this is not something that I’ve ever heard referenced but I’m not totally fluent.

Also I doubt that the cold and wind part of uitwaaien as described by this non-native speaker is relevant vs. the fact that NL is just often cold and windy and that’s the only way you can get outside? :) I’m sure that the Dutch would do this on a sunny day as well if they could find more of them!

This article was junk, but yes Totally agree going for a windy bike ride along the canals or the beach, or a windy dike will certainly clear your head a bit, or allow you to think about things and feel refreshed. Any time away from work / stress to think will do this, though - it’s not a “method” to be used.

Scarblac• 7 years ago

I mean, it is true that a walk out in the wind (say on a beach or wide open nature) can be enjoyable, and you feel refreshed when you go inside again afterwards.

And we do sometimes set out to go for a walk in windy conditions -- because the alternative is to stay inside during all of autumn.

I just don't believe that's an especially Dutch thing.

mrkoot• 7 years ago

FWIW, N=1: I'm Dutch and don't recall the word "uitwaaien" being commonly used like this throughout society. It's only used in informal settings, e.g. between friends/family/colleague (AFAIK), and has little to no meaning outside specific contexts. It is, for instance, also used when joshing a person (with either teaseful or unpleasant intent) by proposing they should leave (the room or building): the phrase "ga jij maar even uitwaaien" means "(you should) go outside". When a cyclist informs a partner/friend/colleague about their intent to leave for (outdoor) cycling by saying "ik ga even uitwaaien". Hence I too am a bit surprised about this article.

theraido2• 7 years ago

"people who live closer to the coast, like many Netherlanders do, report better physical and psychological health than those farther inland."

The whole randstad area (near the coast, with all the major cities) has more jobs, wealth, opportunities and such..

geitir• 7 years ago

Chicken and the egg case quite possibly

conceptme• 7 years ago

The air is much more polluted in de grandstand, I doubt they will have better physical health.

DanielleMolloy• 7 years ago

Going outside? Leisure biking / walking? Really? Is this satire?

bouk• 7 years ago

This is another one in a series of articles (like https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/smarter-living/the-case-f...) about Americans finding out that there's a word for something in Dutch and making a big deal out of it. It's just so hilarious to me as someone from The Netherlands. Not like we're niksen and uitwaaien every day.

The Dutch version of The Onion made fun of it too: https://speld.nl/2019/01/25/kwakkelen-the-ancient-dutch-art-...

Aeolun• 7 years ago

I concur. We may do it potentially every day, but nobody ‘sets out’ to do that. They set oit for a walk, and a side effect of that is ‘uitwaaien’.

It’s definitely not “a popular pastime”...

dsr_• 7 years ago

The headline needs an editor.

"Dutch cure" is a euphemism for suicide. A competent editor would, I hope, have caught that.

davidw• 7 years ago

I wrote about how my bike helps me think, a few years back: https://journal.dedasys.com/2015/04/20/the-bicycle-a-thinkin...

allsunny• 7 years ago

i wonder how much of the feeling is being outside vs just getting exercise.

A Simple Dutch Cure for Stress

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