Ask PG: Are people getting more liberal with their downvotes?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=214398

by ghiotion • 18 years ago

41 62 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I've noticed something that seems like a trend, namely an increased use of the downvote for comments that people mildly disagree with. I pointed it out in this thread (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=214294). I normally try to stay away from the downvote button as much as possible because it seems somewhat passive aggressive. If I disagree with someone, I won't vote up. If I really disagree with someone, I'll post a rejoinder comment. I remain utterly convinced that the downvote killed reddit (that plus the influx of the /b/tards).

Has the use of the downvote increased since hacker news made it to techcrunch? How about in the last 30 days?

run4yourlives• 18 years ago

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: it's just a changing user base. I won't elaborate in this comment though, just that's an article in and of itself.

LPTS3• 18 years ago

Do you really care that much about your karma here? Just ignore it, it's just a number. It's not a video game.

Obviously, the most interesting, useful comments are often going to be controversial. In cases where people downvote stuff they don't like (which is a proxy for, does not fit my worldview), these comments will not get the most points. This means you shouldn't care too much about points except that they tell you where the conventional wisdom lies.

Personally I downvote something if I think it's dumb. Since there is more stupidity here now, it seems, there are more downvotes. That's good.

rory096• 18 years ago

The problem is that downvoted comments are less prominent- they're all the way at the bottom of the page (and greyed out). Thus if people start downvoting things they just disagree with, things that contribute to discussions won't actually be seen, reducing the quality of discussions. Karma isn't the problem.

ghiotion2• 18 years ago

Gun to head, yeah, I do care about karma. But I only care insofar as I respect the community who's voting.

The problem is that the indiscriminate downvote homogenizes discussion. The consensus opinion rises to the top. This is good when the group is good; bad when the group degrades.

xlnt3• 18 years ago

you should care about the reasons behind votes, not the votes themselves.

allenbrunson4• 18 years ago

it's not that simple. to participate effectively here, you need a certain amount of karma. you can't downvote without it. and if you go into negative numbers, you're almost certain to get your account terminated.

mlinsey2• 18 years ago

"If I disagree with someone, I won't vote up. If I really disagree with someone, I'll post a rejoinder comment."

I haven't been here very long but I've thought that expressing disagreement isn't the purpose of a downvote at all. Instead, it's meant to indicate that a post detracts from the discussion and probably shouldn't have been posted to begin with. Using downvotes to express disagreement would only result in discussions becoming more intellectually homogeneous, which would make the site much less valuable.

I'm not sure how the site can encourage people to use downvotes more appropriately, but I think that there is a higher risk of having trolls pollute the site than of downvotes deterring legitimate discussion (has anyone felt like leaving the site or not posting a comment because you feared that your perspective would get you down-modded? I'm not aware of such an instance but if it has happened to someone than that is a big problem that should be talked about).

icey• 18 years ago

On occasion, I'll make a posting that's not terribly well thought out, or is flippant or even mean-spirited.

For the most part, I can look at a comment and ask myself if it really adds anything to the conversation. If it doesn't pass that litmus test, then I delete it.

I think that a lot of the downmodding around here is coming from the fact that sometimes people post things in a way that's similar to talking just to hear the sound of your own voice... They aren't applying that filter to ask themselves if they're really adding anything to the conversation.

hooande• 18 years ago

As an example:

There was a post about the birthday of the user edw159. Some people thought that the post wasn't hacker "newsworthy" and others thought it was ok. I commented "I think edw159 is one of the more active members and recognizing his birthday is ok" and I was downvoted pretty far. I think my comment was appropriate and it added meaningfully to the conversation, but a lot of people downvoted it to (I assume) show their disagreement.

Now I'm worried before I post any comments, partly because I'm worried I'll lose my precious karma but mostly because it's embarrassing to have a negative number next to one of your comments.

ghiotion2• 18 years ago

Exactly. I saw that and was really surprised. Burying you comment like that was an aggressively unfriendly act; two adjectives I never thought I would use to describe this place.

babul2• 18 years ago

Initially you may worry about karma (as I did too) but we have to realise it does not exist (and that it does not matter)!

I now appreciate down votes and see it as a way for the community to 'teach me' (not in a negative way par se but as a guiding/helping hand) in the simplest way possible.

astrec• 18 years ago

I quite often up vote a comment I wouldn't normally touch if it's negative karma seems unjustified.

andresvi2• 18 years ago

I’ve noticed the same reaction. I’ve posted some comments that disagreed with others and I got downvoted – so it is really discouraging to disagree. I think that the solution here could be that next to karma there is courage section for people who are not afraid to disagree. There should also be something like “Karma Court” where respected guys from YC community decide if the post that got downvoted was plain stupid/disrespectful or just disagreeing. The members of Karma Court should bee respected fans of YC - motivation to become karma judges could be even bigger respect and recognition from other community members. What do you think of that?

axod• 18 years ago

I think one issue is that there is no way to express disagreement with the worthiness of the original story. No downvote on stories, no bury etc. So instead some people most likely express that by downmodding any comments that agree with the storys worthiness.

I'd really like a downvote on articles, although it's a tricky decision I guess.

gojomo3• 18 years ago

PG once before weighed in with "it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement" [1].

But, the mixing of the "quality" axis with an "agree/disagree" axis risks coarsening discussion. A disagree-downvote is mildly censorious: it lowers a comment's placement and docks the commenter's karma. It stings.

I don't want to downvote comments simply because I disagree, but if such comments are highly-placed because of some superficial popular appeal, and comments I more agree with are lowly-placed, I want to restore some balance of attention. I then tend to cast a few votes based on agreement/disagreement.

One possible answer is an idea I've plugged whenever this issue comes up: start a second orthogonal rating axis that is explicitly for agree/disagree [2][3]. It could be little left/right arrows, at the end of the comment. Then you might 'disvote' a comment you disagree with, but still 'upvote' it because it was well-stated... etc.

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171

[2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117196

[3] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126917

LPTS3• 18 years ago

If someone says "People should downvote to express disagreement." and I disagree with them should I downvote them?

menloparkbum2• 18 years ago

I downvoted you because I can't stand it when people use footnote notation in a posting that is only 1/5 of a page long.

bayareaguy• 18 years ago

The mixing of the "quality" axis with an "agree/disagree" axis risks coarsening discussion.

I think in practice there are only three useful situations:

- you post a good comment, and I agree

- you post a good comment, but I disagree

- you post a bad comment

I think we all want a scheme where I can reward you in the first two situations and punish you in the last one. Unfortunately what we seem to be getting is one that encourages rewards in the first and punishment in the second and third.

Here are my suggestions:

For comments, an upvote or downvote without a followup comment should only add or remove some fraction of a point in order to diminish the effect of people who silently agree or disagree. If you really want your disagreement to count significantly you'll have to comment and also take the risk that people will downvote (or upvote) you.

For posts, remove the upvote arrow from the main list until after someone has clicked on the link. People should have to at least read the thing they are upvoting.

Finally, make it possible for me to change my mind within a short interval of upvoting or downvoting.

Xichekolas• 18 years ago

This has been talked about before too.[1] I think the issue is generally that downmodding means different things to different people. Some use it to kill trolls, others to agree/disagree. I generally agree with you regarding how I downmod.

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=147098

dusklight• 18 years ago

Here's the thing: In the real world, you WILL be attacked when you disagree with the status quo, sometimes perhaps literally.

If you can't even handle losing a point in an imaginary karma system that doesn't even matter, how are you going to handle the risk of losing a job, a contract, a girlfriend, for believing in something and standing up for your belief?

As hackers and entrepreneurs we should embrace conflict and challenge. Losing a karma point for dissing the iPhone is I am sure a lot easier to handle than getting punched in the face for supporting gay marriage. If you perhaps do not have the courage to even consider the possibility that there is something you believe strongly enough to get punched in the face for, maybe facing the constant possibility of downmodding will toughen you up at least a bit. I see the potential of getting downmodded for your beliefs as a growth opportunity, one that should be embraced and not stifled.

omouse• 18 years ago

I've been down-voting some comments because it seems like everyone is up-voting any old comment. It's ridiculous for someone's "I liked this article" type of comment to be up-voted.

I thought up-votes for something special, to be given out once in a while as a way of saying "your comment affected me in a deep way, thank you". If you give out up-vote willy-nilly then no one really cares about writing a thoughtful comment.

Here's an example of bad up-voting: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=213070 What the fuck's the point of the up-vote there? Does dangoldin really need to be up-voted 6 times to indicate that his comment was useful? Wouldn't 1 up-vote be enough?

Anyway, I need a coffee and it's just a number.

alaskamiller• 18 years ago

I got downvoted for saying it's not proper etiquette to passive-aggressively downvote. I just chalk it up as one of those stupid things you come across every now and then and move on. There's other more important stuff to worry about.

unalone• 18 years ago

What do you mean by "passive-aggressively" downvoting? Do you mean downvoting for disagreement with a subject? Because I agree: that's a poor use of downvoting.

allenbrunson4• 18 years ago

i saw that comment you made, agreed it was downvoted spitefully, and upvoted you in compensation.

people are getting way too touchy with the downvoting.

brianlash• 18 years ago

I've had my own encounters with the downmod problem (we all have) and I won't repeat them here in the interest of brevity. But here's a suggestion for handling it. Can't tell if it's pie-in-the-sky, so input's encouraged...

Most of us make it a habit to abide by the news.YC "guidelines," such as not changing the text of submitted headlines unless it's needed for clarification, and not adding comment signatures. And it's an easy thing to police because there's accountability. Case in point, I've only seen a signature once, and another user had pointed to the users' misstep by the time I noticed it.

But there's no accountability for downmodding. There really can't be, else you injure the chance for honest opinions from people afraid of the kickback. But what if there was a single line of text you needed to include with a downmod? Something short, like 25-40 characters, that explained your reason. The community would recognize anonymous feedback like "Trolling" and "Unnecessary personal attack" as reasonable motives for downmodding, and "Bad point" or "Stupid idea" as unreasonable.

It wouldn't eliminate the problem -- I don't think anything anonymous could -- but it might create some mechanism for policing indiscriminate downmods and encouraging fair use.

Of course where you'd display that information is another issue entirely...

cperciva• 18 years ago

The community would recognize anonymous feedback like "Trolling" and "Unnecessary personal attack" as reasonable motives for downmodding, and "Bad point" or "Stupid idea" as unreasonable.

Most of my downvotes are on comments which don't fall into any of these categories -- they fall into the category of "not even wrong". In my view, a comment which isn't even logically coherent has no business being here.

rewind• 18 years ago

I think if you give someone the option to downvote, there are always going to be people who do whatever they want with it. Telling someone not to downvote if they disgree with a well-presented argument is like telling someone not to post crap in the first place (or not to upvote crap, for that matter). Most will abide by the guidelines, but there's nothing you can do to stop the minority from misusing abusing it. Unfortunately, the wrong minority is enough to ruin the feature (or even the community, although I don't think that has happened here).

allenbrunson4• 18 years ago

i agree this is happening, and that it's a problem.

i think the karma threshold for downvote ability should be raised to, say, 60. if you can stick around for that long, you're more likely to understand the community's values.

xenoterracide2• 18 years ago

I still don't _always_ see the downvote... there is at least one other factor involved. not sure what it though.

allenbrunson4• 18 years ago

once a comment reaches a certain age, you can't downvote it anymore. it's to prevent karma-bombing.

xlnt3• 18 years ago

i can testify that getting mass downmodding for saying something unpopular was common about 9 months ago. it seems the same to me now.

gscott• 18 years ago

There is a general bias of HN and if you fall out of the range of that bias then you will for sure be downvoted. I believe that is because many of the users are very young and are not mature enough to value different ideals. You have to coddle them and not shake them up very much.

jamongkad2• 18 years ago

And I say does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? So you got downvoted in a virtual community...my gosh the mind reels.

aston• 18 years ago

Ironic downmods are my least favorite thing in the world. Let's downmod jamongkad just because he claims not to care about being downvoted!

Is that funny to people, or something? I just don't get it.

bouncingsoul• 18 years ago

I downvoted jamongkad because he made a shallow argument.

You can say what he said about anything because there is always something more important than something else. It's a cheap way to dismiss someone without actually addressing their points.

LPTS3• 18 years ago

Im a fan of the ironic downvote personally. Its hilarious if you have the right sense of humor. It makes me almost pee myself laughing.

I don't understand why we shouldn't be hacking the downvote system. This is supposed to be hacker news. Ironic downmods seem consistent with that thinking, as well as consistent with the tricksters hackers are supposed to be.

menloparkbum2• 18 years ago

The exact OPPOSITE trend is what I've noticed and am more worried about. Lately it seems there is an increasing number of inane posts being upvoted to the front page. Karma-bombing seemed more prevalent a while back when it was easier to do.

hugh• 18 years ago

I'd say there's more downmodding only in that there's more modding in general. Far more 10+ point comments now than six months ago, as well as far more -10 point comments.

I only rarely see negative-karma comments that don't deserve it one way or another.

Furthermore, penis.

iamelgringo• 18 years ago

We had a similar conversation about down voting a few months back, I just can't find the thread anywhere. I do remember PG saying that he thought that it was okay to down vote something that you disagreed with as well as down vote non-quality comments.

pg• 18 years ago

The ratio of downvotes to up doesn't seem any different than it's always been. But because there are now more voters, the most downvoted comments get more total downvotes.

kajecounterhack• 18 years ago

I just think people feel peer pressure to downvote when someone already has karma less than 1. Does anyone else think this is true?

astine• 18 years ago

How can there be peer pressure? It's totally anonymous.

Mystalic• 18 years ago

After reading all of the comments, it seems clear that most of the community wants some sort of "downvote" mechanism to assure that comments and articles lacking quality do not reach the front page and do not "clog" up the HN community.

It also seems clear that HN wants to tweak the system so that it's fair, doesn't allow for people who simply disagree without just reason to downvote an article, and holds the integrity of the community.

I have to add that any system implemented has to be simple but effective (two sets of downvotes is not simple, for example).

So my suggestions:

- Downvotes still exist to make sure articles and comments lacking quality, or are clearly karma-bombs designed to bring something to the front page. - You can't downvote until you've gotten to understand the community. That means a minimum Karma limit, say 50, that signifies that you've contributed to HN enough to know the general rules of the community and some of the nuances that make HN what it is. You could also make it so you can't upvote or downvote after say, 25 karma. The number's arbitrary, the point is that you need to time to understand the community before you start downvoting items.

- Karma count doesn't appear until there's -3 or +3. That eliminates initial biases and "peer pressure" voting for an article starting out. Not ideal, but could work.

- Most of all, we must remember that, if a person is submitting quality, any downvotes they get for any reason is going to be balanced out by a greater amount of upvotes.

No system is perfect, but you need downvotes for quality control. Let those who have more connection to the community do that work if necessary.

cheponis• 18 years ago

Well, my version of Hacker News has no "down button". Is my browser broken?

anirbas• 18 years ago

You only have a downvote button if you've a certain amount of karma: I think 20.

DanielBMarkham• 18 years ago

A single up-down arrow system is fracked. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? Are you recommending or dis-recommending? Can you tell the difference? Are you acting petty or noble? Do you like or dislike the poster? Did he/she take you to the cleaners the last time you disagreed online?

These systems do not promote healthy, honest, respectful discussion. They promote lock-step agreement with wherever the majority is going. Most people vote their emotions, not their head. With that in mind, the karma system is a system to enforce that overall you're going to say things people mostly agree with -- not that they find interesting or new.

This leads to a "me too" board, where there are pre-decided opinions on everything and posters struggle to pat each other on the back in new and interesting ways.

I exaggerate, but only to a point. As you can see on other boards, this is a real and deleterious condition. (Please insert John Stuart Mill's argument for the utility of listening to minority opinions here)

weegee• 18 years ago

there is no downvote button for me on this site

Ask PG: Are people getting more liberal with their downvotes?

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