The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/the-autismmmr-fraud/

by gronkie • 16 years ago

123 78 16 years ago

kingkawn• 16 years ago

I saw someone yesterday who was in his 30's with measles, his mother sitting next to him explaining why she didn't get him vaccinated because she thought it would make him sick.

amelim• 16 years ago

It's unfortunate because there are many people who either can't be vaccinated due to allergies or have other legitimate medical issues such as being too young for the vaccine, that rely upon the herd immunity of the portion of the population that can be vaccinated. Opting out of vaccines puts these people at risk, not to mention the increased risk of child opted out.

grav1tas• 16 years ago

There was a Frontline documentary (I think it was them) detailing this risk and it coming to a head in a smaller community where too many people were skipping vaccinations and the herd immunity was significantly diminished. It was a really interesting piece on what could happen if too many people start skipping vaccines.

MichaelSalib• 16 years ago

Even people who get the vaccines rely on herd immunity to some (stochastic) extent. My spouse got a complete vaccine set as a child but the Rubella vaccine didn't quite take; she only discovered that in adulthood while getting a routine pre-natal test. She's been vulnerable to Rubella her whole life without knowing it.

VB6_Forever• 16 years ago

Was his name Peter Pan?

Florin_Andrei• 16 years ago

Freedom is slavery!

pella• 16 years ago

more debate :

"Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds (cnn.com)"

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2073192

SeanDav8• 16 years ago

Bottom line: vaccines are good for society but fault lines occur because vaccines are not always good for individuals and government are conditioned to not admit this or keep it as quiet as possible.

My daughter had complications 10 days after her MMR in the UK. She had episodes of going floppy and eyes rolling back in her head while making strange mewing sounds. 10 days is around the time that the measles component of the MMR can manifest side effects. We took her to the hospital where doctors absolutely refused to admit that the MMR vaccine could have anything to do with these symptoms she has never had before or since.

I found out later that in fact these exact symptoms were a known side effect of MMR in some cases. I also found out later that doctors are "encouraged" to not admit side-effects to MMR.

I also know that the UK government were using vaccines with a mercury preservative that had been banned in countries like Japan for years.

My point is, examine any claims by government or big Pharm or sensational reports about autism very carefully and make up your own mind.

burgerbrain5• 16 years ago

Unless you are a trained medical professional in this particular area of study, you have absolutely no business making up your own mind.

Alex39176• 16 years ago

Most doctors get their information about medical issues by reading the marketing pamphlets from drug companies. If you actually read the relevant journal articles then you'd be significantly more knowledgeable about any given topic than the average doctor.

cynicalkane• 16 years ago

A sufficiently intelligent and reasonable person should be able to, with enough consideration, make up his mind about just about anything that lives in a knowledge domain. It's not like the medical profession emerged fully-formed from the head of Zeus.

reedlaw• 16 years ago

That's an extremely funny statement if it's meant to be ironic. Almost like "unless you are a %w[Politician, Clergyman, Philosopher] you have no business making up your own mind about %w[politics, religion, the meaning of life]."

SeanDav8• 16 years ago

I have 2 words for you : Lorenzo's Oil

phren0logy2• 16 years ago

Can you please provide credible (i.e. peer-reviewed) references to the symptoms you describe being a known side-effect of MMR vaccination? And to doctors being "encouraged" not to admit said side-effects? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying what you are describing is really unusual.

Which brings me to my next point: any decision has consequences. If there is a 1 in 1 billion chance of a side-effect, and a 1 in 5000 chance of getting a debilitating disease, I think it's still fair to make the argument that the treatment is not just for society but also for the patient. Who is "society" if not "all the patients?"

kragen2• 16 years ago

> Who is "society" if not "all the patients?"

In your hypothetical case, the treatment is beneficial both for society and for the patient. On the other hand, if there is a 1 in 100 chance of a side effect versus a 1 in 1000 chance of getting a debilitating disease, the vaccination may not be good for the patient. But if the chance of getting the debilitating disease would be 1 in 10 without herd immunity, then the vaccination is good for society.

It's just that most of the benefits of the vaccination flow not to the patient but to the other people they don't infect, and transitively.

SeanDav8• 16 years ago

Sure the "peer" review you require is on the long list of side-effects on one of the MMR manufacturer's own packaging. Look it up.

The doctors being encouraged comes from the mouth of a doctor friend of ours that used to work for the NHS. Sorry you are just going to have to take my word on this. I can't prove this.

Disagree with you on individual verse society point, but this is a discussion for another day.

zzzeek• 16 years ago

> I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying what you are describing is really unusual.

How do you know it's unusual if the symptoms in question haven't been studied ? If there's no study, all you have is anecdotal evidence. It could be happening all the time, perhaps to a lesser degree.

edit: dear mr. downmodder. I appreciate your response ! I understand the rationale of doctors who shrug off what their patients tell them much better now, thanks, and I now have a deeper respect for their wisdom when they tell me my symptoms are all in my head or something similar.

patrickgzill5• 16 years ago

Perhaps 10 seconds of using your favorite search engine would have found you this link:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

The approximate odds of having a specific reaction, are listed. Seizure (jerking or staring) are listed as 1 in 3000 .

alain94040• 16 years ago

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that what you are saying may be 100% true, but statistically, it was bound to happen that two unrelated episodes would coincide the way you describe them. What you don't see in this thread is millions of people sharing their experience that they had the MMR vaccine, and nothing happened after 10 days.

rmc• 16 years ago

Bottom line: vaccines are good for society but fault lines occur because vaccines are not always good for individuals

Bottom line: vaccines are good for society but fault lines occur because some vaccines are not always good for individuals, however the MMR vaccine has been found completly safe.

SeanDav8• 16 years ago

Absolute rubbish, there is no such thing as a completely safe vaccine.

patrickgzill5• 16 years ago

That is the most uninformed comment on this discussion.

ceejayoz3• 16 years ago

> My daughter had complications 10 days after her MMR in the UK.

A one-in-a-million coincidence happens 7,000 times in the world's population. There will always be anecdotes, correlation doesn't prove causation.

SeanDav8• 16 years ago

Exactly the point the doctors used (without the statistics). Sure, it could have been coincidence but why say there was no chance it was a side effect? In fact, since her symptoms are a known side effect it is more likely it was not just a coincidence, not so?

patrickgzill5• 16 years ago

Downplaying known complications does not serve your argument ...

seizure occurrence for MMR is listed as 1 in 3000; mild fever (1 in 6), rash (1 in 20), temporary stiffness in joints (up to 1 in 4) , etc.

Note this is MMR, not MMRV, which is listed separately, and for which seizure is listed as a 1 in 1250 occurrence ...

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

huxley3• 16 years ago

People are protective of their kids but they are not always very rational about the relative risks their children face. Vaccines are good for society and they are good for individuals, but like all medical treatments that occur to millions, even tiny risks will affect some individuals.

Measles kills. Polio cripples. Faking research to show a false result about vaccines doesn't protect children, it is tantamount to murdering children and adults by making them susceptible to dangerous diseases.

As you yourself admit, your daughter had a possible temporary reaction ("these symptoms she has never had before or since"). Temporary symptoms are hard to diagnose, especially in children who can't describe their symptoms. It was probably very scary but since I'm related to people who spent time in iron lungs because of polio, my family knows that there are other equally scary things. Watching your child succumb to a horrible easily preventable disease is probably pretty scary.

About the mercury:

The mercury in the preservative is ethylmercury not methylmercury, ethylmercury behaves differently and clears the body faster leading to a shorter period of exposure than methylmercury.

The bans in Japan and other countries weren't based on toxicity studies but on a precautionary approach and pressure from non-scientists. The bans may have been sensible or pointless but it doesn't prove things one way or the other.

KirinDave• 16 years ago

Buddy, do you know how thoroughly disproven thimerisol complications are? Even mainstream (if they can be called that) vaccine denial has moved away from this claim. You get more environmental mercury average urban life.

And let's say this might have been a legit concern (it is proven that it isn't) for the sake of argument. Thimerisol hasn't been used in single-dose vaccines in the West for the last 7-10 years! It's only used as a stabilizing agent in multi-dose vials; Vials typically seen as part of low-budget vaccination programs in Africa and Asia.

There are potential side effects from the MMR vaccine. Autism is not one of them. A mountain of money and research effort has gone into this. There is no credible correlation.

He'll, the man who proposed this correlation (Wakefield) has been forbidden to practice in the UK because he was illegally taking spinal fluid sample from children without consent or a proper medical review of his study. He recklessly endangered the lives of children and caused them undue pain to try and prove his theory. He then lied about his data because it didn't show what he wanted it to show.

PLEASE let this crazy idea rest. Any rational person examining the evidence can only find overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If you want to claim that you're a responsible adult worthy of making reasonable decisions then you should demonstrate that you've examined even a few of the salient facts about the subject. My reading of your comments suggests you have not.

ErrantX• 16 years ago

That is unusual. The doctor I know (she is sat on my lap :)) tells me that it was probably just a doctor mistaking the danger signs of "vaccine moaner" and trying to avoid an argument.

Which is inexcusable "bedside manner" and they should be held up for it.

But the bottom line is; yep, maybe it was caused by the MMR vaccine. Maybe not.

The real secret is that medicine, even tried and tested medicine, causes all sorts of random and unexpected results in a tiny amount of people - which is why those boxes list silly numbers of symptoms (i.e. I challenge you to find a medicine that doesn't potentially cause nausea :)). It's not so much that doctors are encouraged not to admit these side effects, it is that they know it is a product of random variance.

The actual problem is; you can't rationally explain this to people. The majority simply don't "get it" and it risks persisting fear over proven (and safe) medicines. So the question is; is it morally right or wrong to do so?

So... yeh it could have been a Vaccine. It could have been a random coincidence (that happens a LOT, particularly in young children when parents happen to be looking for a change). It could have been simply the fact someone stuck a needle in her triggering some medical phenomena (also relatively common).

The doctor should have told you all this, and they need a kicking for failing to be open with you :)

However:

My point is, examine any claims by government or big Pharm or sensational reports about autism very carefully and make up your own mind.

Is a point I wholeheartedly agree with.

patrickgzill5• 16 years ago

Do you know if the UK has the equivalent of the US government's vaccine event reporting system?

Perhaps at the least, there is a UK website that you can report the event at (link is the US site): http://vaers.hhs.gov/index

yuhong• 16 years ago

"My point is, examine any claims by government or big Pharm or sensational reports about autism very carefully and make up your own mind."

Being careful to consider who paid for any studies you examine, as that is very important.

Natsu• 16 years ago

> We took her to the hospital where doctors absolutely refused to admit that the MMR vaccine could have anything to do with these symptoms she has never had before or since.

What did the doctors say was wrong with her and what do they think caused it?

If you only have one explanation, the natural tendency is to latch on to it. But there are probably millions or more different things that can go wrong with the human body and nobody knows them all.

michaelty• 16 years ago

This bastard belongs in jail.

SeanDav8• 16 years ago

http://www.jabs.org.uk/

Look at this site and their forum for a broader perspective on vaccines and side-effects. Some highly qualified people from both sides of the fence express opinions here.

tokenadult3• 16 years ago

That organization had much to do with starting the fraud in the first place.

SeanDav8• 16 years ago

Please justify that comment, references?

martythemaniak• 16 years ago

On one hand, I wish there was something your kind (McCarthy, Oprah, Wakefield) could be criminally charged with. On the other hand, that would probably trigger some martyrdom-complex and rally even more people to your cause.

Evidence against the conspiracy is only seen as further exposing the vastness and deviousness of the conspiracy.

alanh• 16 years ago

Argh, just noticed his top navigation LOOKS like a breadcrumb nav but in fact is not. At all.

The "vaccination causes autism" fraud

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