Less Processed Meat, More Plant-Based Foods May Boost Longevity

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/06/12/732061499/the-swap-less-processed-meat-more-plant-based-foods-may-boost-longevity

by pseudolus • 7 years ago

61 118 7 years ago

npr.org

albertgoeswoof• 7 years ago

Regarding processed meat, what part of the processing makes the meat unhealthy? Or is it something related to how processed meat is often consumed vs unprocessed meat?

adrianN4• 7 years ago

Curing with nitrites is not particularly healthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curing_(food_preservation)#Nit...

Smoking is probably not good either.

GordonS• 7 years ago

From the WHO stuff that was released a few years ago, I understood that "nasty processing" really only meant where nitrites were used (to preserve meat)?

sammorrowdrums• 7 years ago

And as someone who has butchered a pig, made sausages and bacon I can assure you that for a lot of it the nitrates are really the only difference between those and other forms of meat.

I guess the curing time could also be relevant but I don't believe there is anything to suggest that curing time is an issue.

Knowing this I was wondering for ages "surely it can only be the nitrates" and that seemed to be the case. It is also possible to buy bacon safely cured without nitrates now too.

Down_n_Out• 7 years ago

Not to speak about the amount of antibiotics in meat probably [1][2][3]

[1]https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/28/opinion/antibiotics-and-t... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/05/most-... [3] https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/06/antibiotics-are-...

matteuan• 7 years ago

The problem are not the antibiotics in meat but bacteria resistant to them because of their use/abuse.

lm284694• 7 years ago

It's all the additional steps and products added. A lot of processed meat are juste a slime of bones, skin, organs, ligaments whatever was left on the carcass of the animal. On top of that it comes from low quality (cheap) animals in the first place which doesn't help.

It's like eating a fruit vs drinking a juice, or eating raw veggies vs a broth. The original material is the same but it doesn't mean it holds the same benefits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9il0DVhT86E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzUm7UEEIY

jsjolen3• 7 years ago

I don't believe that this matters. Why would it? Offal has great nutritional value. The inuit did perfectly well on an all-meat diet. The issue is more likely curing with nitrites and smoking.

It's like eating a fruit vs drinking a juice

Another thing that doesn't matter. What exactly do you think magically happens when you put an orange into a blender and mix with a bit of water that would make it lose its nutritional value?

layoutIfNeeded• 7 years ago

A lot of processed meat are juste a slime of bones, skin, organs, ligaments whatever was left on the carcass of the animal.

All of these are healthy.

They might sound "disgusting" for modern consumers accustomed to 100% white meat, but none of them are harmful. In fact, bone marrow, skin, and organ meat contain many micronutrients that are less abundant in regular white meat, including vitamin A, B12 and collagen.

tunnuz• 7 years ago

With more and more people switching to vegetarian and vegan fake meats, I'd be interested in understanding what is the wisdom on highly processed vegetable-based foods.

looeee• 7 years ago

It's simple. Avoid them, just as you should avoid processed meat.

Easy less processed food, and lots of fruit, veg, fiber, and protein from whatever source you like. That's the key to a healthy diet.

lm284694• 7 years ago

I don't get the downvotes, it's a pretty solid advice.

You have to try really hard to be unhealthy if you eat unprocessed meat, veggies, grains and stick to the basics. It's what millions of years of evolution engineered our body for. Not 300gr of smoked bacon every morning and 1L of fruit juice per day.

_nosaj2• 7 years ago

A good heuristic for this is don't eat anything that, in its purest form, wasn't around 10,000 years ago.

jamil73• 7 years ago

I think it's also not great for many of the same reasons but the motivation might be more eithical or environmental than health. Most of the vegans I know (myself included) have totally different diets that don't include meat replacements at all. Beans and legumes take the place of red meat.

hannob• 7 years ago

This is obviously a simplification, but a rule of thumb is probably: Just as unhealthy as the meat alternative for you (particularly the closer these alternatives come to the original), but better for the planet.

hutzlibu2• 7 years ago

Probably none, most want to hear about, if there is something to it. They struggled hard to replace their meat with soy and extracted proteins and yeast from wherever .. it must be good.

I just really believe, that for the most part my body knows the best whats good for him. I just have to really pay attention. So sugar might taste good, but my body does not feel good, when eating too much of it. Meat is good, but only if it is good meat and not too much (meat that did not suffer too much and pushed with medicaments).

So balanced diet, lots of vegetables ... the classical recommendation, seems right.

jamil73• 7 years ago

Probably none, most want to hear about, if there is something to it. They struggled hard to replace their meat with soy and extracted proteins and yeast from wherever .. it must be good.

I already addressed the first part in another comment in this thread. I wanted to point out that the "protein" argument is dated and uninformed. Protein is everywhere, grains, nuts, seeds and vegetables. It does not need to be "extracted" through some external process, it occurs naturally and can be used by your body. Also no one "struggled" with this, huge populations of the planet have been getting protein from plants for a long time before modern fake meat.

afpx• 7 years ago

Processing foods is what likely helped Homo to get enough energy to evolve big brains. So, processing foods isn’t all that bad, and it may even be hard-wired in many of us.

But, Humans tend to take things too far, and inventing new ways of processing is really fun! So, most food today is over-processed. It’s acceptable to grind, dice, tear, smash, smush, squeeze, ferment, spice, salt, and cook veggies, lightly. Any more than that is risky territory.

me_me_me• 7 years ago

I think that is slight miss-use of term processed food. Process food (at least to me) is anything that has been artificially adjusted by factory processing, like injecting meat with some solutions in order to 'make' more meat.

I would hardly qualified lets say smoked bacon as processed food in that sense. But all of those microwave ready meals et al. large content of it is cheap filler masqueraded as actual product.

lm284694• 7 years ago

Processing foods is what likely helped Homo to get enough energy to evolve big brains.

Hm cooked food maybe; processed food, not really, at least according to the current definition of it.

https://www.foodindustry.com/articles/the-4-categories-of-pr...

hartator• 7 years ago

I wonder how true this is. I have been trying to switch to a more carnivore diet - more red meat eg steak - for rumored benefits of lowering inflammation and boosting immune system. This is stating the reverse.

adrianN4• 7 years ago

It's nutritional science, so the error bars are big, the effect sizes are small and the confounding variables numerous. At least a plant-based diet reduces your GHG footprint, so there's that. If you want to switch to a more carnivorous diet, I'd suggest chicken instead of beef. The evidence for mammalian meat being slightly carcinogenic seems to be pretty solid, and the climate impact of beef is about ten times that of chicken.

paulluuk5• 7 years ago

You also cause way less suffering in the world, which is something I believe is very much worth striving for.

cageface5• 7 years ago

Chicken is one of the most inflammatory things you can eat. It’s loaded with arachidonic acid.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6428879/

ShlomoS12• 7 years ago

At least a plant-based diet reduces your GHG footprint

That isn't actually true. It is a very misleading claim spread to promote veganism. It comes from comparing the raw caloric value of field corn, to the caloric value of beef. In reality, We do not actually eat field corn, we turn it into HFCS and corn oil, this reduces the energy efficiency of corn dramatically. A plant based diet also should not be based on HFCS and corn oil.

Second, beef is the worst meat to compare to, it is not an accurate representation for meat in general. Chicken being fed on corn based feed produces 5 million calories per acre, more than almost all the plant based crops a vegan diet would generally be based on, including soy, and equal to staples like wheat.

Third, even in comparing beef they do it wrong. They are comparing to hypothetical beef raised entirely on corn. There is no such beef. All beef is grass fed for the first year, they are only finished on grain.

Blaiz0r• 7 years ago

This article does emphasise processed meat being the cause, so Bacon and Hotdogs for example, as opposed to Butcher cuts or prepared foul.

arethuza2• 7 years ago

I presume you meant "fowl" - or is that at reference to the "chlorinated chicken" we are being threatened with in the UK?

baxtr• 7 years ago

I found this site to be helpful: https://nutritionfacts.org

ShlomoS12• 7 years ago

That site is run by a well known quack, and is full of misrepresented "evidence" and even outright lies. It used to be called the "vegan research institute" until he renamed it so it was less obvious as a propaganda outlet.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illnes...

cageface5• 7 years ago

Animal protein is highly inflammatory. This is about the worst thing you can do if you are concerned about inflammation. Load up on fresh vegetables and fruits instead.

ShlomoS12• 7 years ago

Animal protein is highly inflammatory

What is the basis for this belief?

Load up on fresh vegetables and fruits instead.

Many fresh vegetables are inflammatory. Plants evolved chemicals to hinder herbation. Roots/tubers and fruit are generally fine, but leaves/stems/flowers are generally full of inflammatory anti-nutrients and should be cooked.

ianai5• 7 years ago

This has been my take away as well. There are plenty of these sorts of studies that don’t rule out meat, but show a clear damaging effect from red meat. Often, they mention leaving in a little serving of low fat meat. It’s probably more to leave people the option of some meat as opposed to making a more divisive statement. Meanwhile, cultures which start out with diets more whole foods, plant based and introduce the standard American diet see stark climbs in cardiovascular diseases, obesity, and the other ailments.

theNewMicrosoft• 7 years ago

Animal protein is highly inflammatory. This is about the worst thing you can do if you are concerned about inflammation.

But not the worst thing you can do if you are concerned about having a healthy heart[1]

[1] https://asunow.asu.edu/20170317-discoveries-despite-meat-hea...

vixen99• 7 years ago

'Animal protein is highly inflammatory'. If this massive unqualified, non-referenced generalization is true then we can see that it doesn't translate into diffential mortality.

"United Kingdom-based vegetarians and comparable nonvegetarians have similar all-cause mortality. Differences found for specific causes of death merit further investigation."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26657045

moltar4• 7 years ago

Please provide a source for your claims. Thank you.

Toine2• 7 years ago

Wow, where did you hear that kind of advices ?

Everywhere I look, I see meat, especially red meat, being demonized, and increasing inflammation.

drchewbacca• 7 years ago

I think the longevity of dietary advice is pretty low. Remember when eggs were the enemy, when fat was the enemy, when carbs were the enemy? Meat had to have it's turn sometime.

arisAlexis• 7 years ago

didn't you hear that eggs are again an enemy? it's like politics

cproctor• 7 years ago

Dietary advice lives longer when it contains less processed food.

cageface5• 7 years ago

Huge sums are being spent to confuse consumers. Reliable research has actually been pretty consistent for decades and repeatedly implicates dietary cholesterol and saturated fat in a variety of diseases.

hvidgaard• 7 years ago

Reliable research has actually been pretty consistent for decades and repeatedly implicates dietary cholesterol and saturated fat in a variety of diseases.

That is simply not true. Cholesterol are split in at least 2 different groups. HDL and LDL, the good and the bad respectively. But it's not the whole picture, a subgroup of LDL is considered mostly harmless as it rarely crosses into the bloodstream. The number that you really want to minimize is called LDL-p (LDL particles) in your blood, and surprisingly many saturated fats play a role in reducing that number, and increasing the HDL, which has been shown to be good for your health.

This article is well sourced, and covers almost everything. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/saturated-fat-good-or-b...

nunb3• 7 years ago

This is simply incorrect. Dietary cholesterol intake isn't even correlated with blood cholesterol.

emadb• 7 years ago

Research and science advance and find new evidences that invalidates the past belief.

Ensorceled• 7 years ago

Eating processed meat has been consistently "bad for you" since at least the late 60's, when I remember being told that bologna and hot dogs weren't healthy but ok as a treat.

jsjolen3• 7 years ago

Perhaps we can judge the statements on the evidence behind them?

The reason that processed meat (that is meats which are smoked, salted, etc.) is recommended to not be eaten is because it has been shown to be carcinogenic.

The egg thing is based on the idea (I actually don't know enough to know if this is correct or not) that dietary cholesterol intake affects blood cholesterol levels, and eggs have a bit of dietary cholesterol in them.

I get that we're not very educated within this area but perhaps we should stay quiet then? What's the point in writing comments on HN about things we know very little about?

leereeves• 7 years ago

Perhaps the media should stay quiet until the research is done.

And any science news headline containing the word "may" should probably be ignored. That's a good sign that they're exaggerating a single study. The media makes money by sensationalizing research, not reporting it accurately.

nunb3• 7 years ago

All these results (re 'shown to be carcinogenic') are based on surveys as opposed to experiments. In other words, unlike randomized, double-blind studies, they cannot be said to demonstrate causation, but at best may point to interesting hypotheses.

As for eggs and cholesterol, about 80% + of cholesterol is produced in the liver, and increasing dietary cholesterol by HUGE amounts at best changes blood cholesterol by 2-4%

Sorry I can't dig up the study right now, but perhaps searching pubmed may find it.

uxcolumbo• 7 years ago

it will boost the longevity of our biosphere, based on a 5 year Oxford Uni study - see https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding...

And also have a look at research by PCRM (group of doctors and medical pros): https://www.pcrm.org/term/processed-meat

matthewmacleod4• 7 years ago

It’s a bit cliché now, but Michael Pollan’s dietary advice (https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t...) does seem to be reasonable: “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.”

Double_a_92• 7 years ago

What is it that makes "processed" meat especially bad? Would the same thing also apply to processed vegetables?

thrower1232• 7 years ago

I do not care, despite the constant barrages from the ethical vegetarians and the climate-alarmist vegetarians, and the Beyond Meat investors.

First off, steak and bacon and pork taste delicious, and life on rabbit food is not, in my opinion, worth living.

Second of all, the only way that I can maintain anything close to what the literature says should be a healthy weight is when I slash grains out of my diet and eat low carb, high fat, supplemented by green vegetables. Any vegetarian diet's benefits pale in comparison to the threat of diabetes and general wear and tear from carrying extra weight around.

msiyer• 7 years ago

I said the same thing in a previous HN discussion and my comment was down voted into oblivion. Many Asian cultures had this thing figured out thousands of years ago. Less or no meat. Many famous martial arts schools (Indian, Chinese and Japanese) are totally vegetarian. So, the argument that meat is needed for extreme physical activity goes out of the window. Almost all Asian monks (Buddhist, Jain or Hindu) are vegetarians. So, the argument that meat is needed for better mental\intellectual health also goes out the window.

Doubl• 7 years ago

I am now cynical about all dietary advice. In Western countries the sort of people who eat bacon and burgers tend to have very different lifestyles from those who eat sushi. They are more likely to smoke and less likely to exercise. They are also likely to be less well educated and more likely to be poor and work at unhealthy jobs. Are all these factors taken account of in this study? For example, as I understand it, black people in America eat a lot of white meat (chicken which is supposed to be healthier than red meat) and yet their health tends to be poorer than average.

rajekas• 7 years ago

To be honest, I don't get the mania for processed meat substitutes when there's excellent vegetarian/vegan fare from cuisines that have been doing it for millennia. As an Indian brought up in a vegetarian family, I had no inkling or desire to eat meat until I came to the US for grad school.

One day I had this niggling doubt that I continued to be a vegetarian for cultural rather than ethical reasons. I tested that hypothesis by eating a hamburger. It was literally the worst thing I had ever tasted. I had to try hard not to throw up and offend my hosts.

Then I tasted bacon, hot dogs pastrami sandwiches and fried chicken and I understood why people like meat. That continued for a few more months.

About six months after the hamburger episode, I had another epiphany that I don't like eating animals since I don't like animals being eaten. I turned vegan. All's well that ends well.

nerdponx• 7 years ago

To be honest, I don't get the mania for processed meat substitutes when there's excellent vegetarian/vegan fare from cuisines that have been doing it for millennia.

There's a term for vegans who don't actually eat whole foods: "french fry vegan". It's as derisive as it sounds. If you're eating processed meat substitutes all the time as a vegetarian, IMO you aren't doing it right. I'm sure plenty of other people would agree.

And yet, vegetarians do eat those things sometimes. It's cultural. In the West (not just in the USA, in much of Europe as well), a lot of traditional foods are either meat-based or contain meat. My friends and I want to go out for a burger and a milkshake, because that's fun for us; I want a damn burger. A grilled mushroom on a roll is equally delicious, but it just isn't the same.

tfehring• 7 years ago

If you're eating processed meat substitutes all the time as a vegetarian, IMO you aren't doing it right. I'm sure plenty of other people would agree.

I couldn't disagree more. The vast majority of vegans are vegan primarily for religious reasons or because of animal welfare and/or environmental concerns (see, e.g., [0]). Heavily processed plant-based foods clearly address the religious and animal welfare considerations, and I suspect they're far more environmentally friendly than animal products despite the energy used to process and ship them.

Avoiding heavily processed foods is a good idea in general. But it's orthogonal to veganism. And eating heavily processed foods doesn't invalidate the benefits of veganism - aside from the health benefits, which are the primary concern for only a slim minority of vegans.

[0] https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl... - I assume this understates the share who cite religious reasons because of the bias toward English-speaking countries.

skookum• 7 years ago

To be honest, I don't get the mania for processed meat substitutes...

It seems you didn't even bother to read the article to check if it would make good segue into your vegan epiphany story: there is no mention of processed meat substitutes.

It also seems like the hamburger you tried was quite poorly prepared if hot dogs made a more compelling case for eating meat.

MiscIdeaMaker99• 7 years ago

One study isn't scientific fact.

londons_explore• 7 years ago

Are there any clues in the scientific literature what part of 'processed' is causing lower longevity?

Ideas:

* 'Worse' cuts of meat (near bone, nerves, etc)

* Grinding/processing system introduces contamination.

* Processing mixes meats from many animals which spreads infections more.

* Smaller pieces of meat degrade with bacteria faster.

* Processed meat tends to be served with less healthy meals otherwise (more salt, fat).

dejaime• 7 years ago

We just have to make sure we are not swapping super processed meats with super processed plant-based foods. Avoiding processed foods is what makes up for most of this difference.

lorriman• 7 years ago

Before anyone goes vegan, check-out the numerous ex-vegan videos on youtube. Even with supplementation veganism isn't sustainable for most people past 3 years, 10 if you're lucky, very few get to 15. Just keep in mind that without vitamin B12 supplements-->certain death.

This is not a human diet, and humans are not herbivores. Herbivores have complex stomachs or eat their own poop (eg, gorrillas and rabbits).

After the health flush of the first few months, veganism is a downward spiral to pasty skin, mood-swings, depression, dark circles, fatigue, skinny-but-fat, Joint paint, constant hunger/lack-of-satisfaction, excessive volume of eating. Vegans eat like you wouldn't believe. And a great deal of wildlife dies due to agricultural farming.

And despite what people say, anthropologically we are not omnivores but carnivores. Radio-isotope analysis has us eating a diet close to a wolf by preference over the last million years. Unlike a pig, a genuine omnivore, we do not have a proper cecum.

But sure, a few humans are better adapted to a plant-based diet than others, and our distant genetics was herbivore which means these genes can re-express, but for most people veganism becomes a nightmare and explains why the level has historically been at 0.3%.

Less Processed Meat, More Plant-Based Foods May Boost Longevity

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