China’s new ‘social credit system’

https://nypost.com/2019/05/18/chinas-new-social-credit-system-turns-orwells-1984-into-reality/

by doener • 7 years ago

102 102 7 years ago

lelima2• 7 years ago

Does anyone have visit China and presence the social system in first person?

I've heard that some people like it (Chinese co-workers), as they feel everyone acting better, but they don't live in China at the moment.

Gys• 7 years ago

I guess they do not realise what is coming?

'...one of the ways that people can improve their own social credit score is to report on the supposed misdeeds of others.'

johnchristopher3• 7 years ago

Now, that's Orwellian. As described in the book.

It's not the cameras, the government agents in the shadows or the spying technology... It's the end result of everyone spying on each other that made the world of 1984 so inescapable to Winston.

sgift2• 7 years ago

People are easily manipulated. You only need the right incentives and tricks.

As long as they are convinced or can be convinced that only bad people will be prosecuted (they are good people after all, right?) many people will welcome this.

Reminder: Why do you need privacy if you have nothing to hide?

shaobo• 7 years ago

Does NY Post have a source/reference for this?

clouddrover• 7 years ago

How does it affect their social credit score if they don't like it?

lelima2• 7 years ago

They opinion don't affect the credit score, they currently live abroad. How can we evaluate the system? number of people likes / dislikes? National level of happiness?

rqs• 7 years ago

How long your since co-workers been out of China? I'm in China right now but I don't think that system has changed people's behavior that much. Plus, I think it's stupid to put a score on everybody's head ("Oh, you're below 10, we can't be friend" stupid).

Based on my observation, people acting better usually because now they can and willing to, rather than been forced to.

In our city for example, we used to have many jaywalkers. But that number dropped since the administration constructed better pedestrian crossings (underground tunnels, foot bridge etc). People still jaywalking when those infrastructure is unavailable.

brighttank2• 7 years ago

I've been living in Beijing for over ten years. So far I haven't heard anyone complain about it.

I know it's hard for Westerners to understand but most middle class Chinese are likely to see it as a good thing. The whole time I've been here I've read a constant stream of stories about fake food, fake medicine, fake milk-powder (which killed many babies), fake products, all types of fraud, etc. Add that to the general anti-social behaviors (such as spitting in the street) and you can see why many people recognize the need to "improve peoples' behavior" as Orwellian as that might sound to Western ears.

Middle-class urban Chinese also distinguish themselves from rural Chinese which they see as kind-of backwards. That's why there's little appetite for democracy ... nobody thinks those people should be voting.

yorwba• 7 years ago

Which specific system were your coworkers talking about? One of those run by private financial companies like Alipay or WeChat pay? One of the small-scale experiments run by various municipalities? The country-wide blacklist of people who did not comply with a court order to pay their debts? Something else?

"The" social credit system looks very different from the monolithic apparatus of totalitarian control that people imagine it to be, so many different views can be simultaneously true.

0898• 7 years ago

Shouldn't it be "a distopian nightmare"?

I'm sure 'an' is correct since that's the headline the NY Post wrote, but I'm just curious why.

johnchristopher3• 7 years ago

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dystopian

Relating to or denoting an imagined state or society where there is great suffering or injustice.
‘the dystopian future of a society bereft of reason’
‘the utopian dream that became a dystopian nightmare’

No, I'd say the NY Post made a typo.

m1sta_• 7 years ago

The NY Post is a rag. Never feel the need to trust it. It is not the NY Times.

pawelmurias• 7 years ago

Are the rules of what costs you social credit score available?

anvandare• 7 years ago

Probably (although it makes more sense for them to be vague) but you shouldn't really care about the paper rules anyway, instead here are the real rules:

Rule One: there are no rules.

Rule Two: you must pretend Rule One does not exist. Instead pretend that there is a set of clear, objective, and just rules that apply to everyone equally and fairly; that it is possible to live without ever violating a rule; that no one is above the rules; that the rules aren't made up on a need-to basis by the powerful.

Rule Three: arguing against the rules is against the rules.

sneak• 7 years ago

This is one of the best comments I have ever seen on the web. Thank you for writing it.

corodra• 7 years ago

You forgot some people are going to be more equal than others.

brighttank2• 7 years ago

Yes, as well as how you earn it back. Eg, by donating blood and other kinds of "good deeds"

bsaul2• 7 years ago

The only positive side is that china’s regime is comiting suicide with this system. Seems like nothing was learned from communist russia. Intellectuals will flee, then top scientists, nobody will trade with them anymore, political opponents will be sent to camp, until finally it will all collapse under economical meltdown.

My only concern is that civilians don’t pay a too high price in the process.

fuzzbuzz• 7 years ago

Norway has just landed some major deals for exporting fish to China. And nor the goverment or the majority of the population seem to bother what China is doing. Money talks, while human rights are censored.

bsaul2• 7 years ago

I don’t think the general public is aware on what’s going on in china in details. They think it’s still pretty ok. But the direction the country is taking is pretty clear, and we soon should hear about nightmarish events more and more. Once one major western country starts taking a public stance and back it up with actions, the others will follow.

maxheadroom• 7 years ago

And nor the goverment or the majority of the population seem to bother what China is doing.

I think this has a lot to do with the, "It doesn't effect me, so its not my problem," mentality that is still pretty prevalent in the globalised world.

As the lyric goes, "Credulous, at best, your desire to believe in angels in the hearts of men."

raxxorrax9• 7 years ago

Only if your economic outlook is vastly positive people accept this form of control and see it as a necessity. There is indeed a danger that people start passively accepting the surveillance, even if the outlook turns in a worse direction.

edit: It also helps that the majority is still lacking education and surveillance is a very real but abstract danger.

Razengan5• 7 years ago

Money talks, while human rights are censored.

It does seem like the world is becoming/has become a cross-border plutocracy.

raducu• 7 years ago

Sorry, but you give people too much credit. The situation is in fact reversed -- people will only flee from an economic meltdown, until that happens people won't flee.

duxup• 7 years ago

We've seen with Leica that China is willing to punish outside companies, they are willing to reach outside China and threaten Uighurs in Australia.

I wonder if we see the social credit system exported / applied to those outside China under the guise of security or good behavior as a sort of pay to play deal.

adinobro3• 7 years ago

China currently doesn't have a "credit score" like most of the rest of the world. They also don't have a national police database so this is their attempt to do both at once. If you look at the information these two things seem to make roughly 90% off your score.

Everything else is basically an experiment. Each district is doing it differently to find out what works the best and that will then be merged into what the country does. (The scientific process ... using data to inform policy)

I visited Guangzhou in 2018 and was expecting it to be crazy since it has "the worst levels of noise pollution in the world" https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/mar/08/where-world-n... but it was almost crazy how quiet the city was. After the report come out they went around the whole city putting in traffic lights and fixing up all the intersections. There is still traffic but it is now more organised than any Chinese city I have been to. I ask the locals about it and they love the cameras, the order and the reduction in noise pollution. They freely admit that without the cameras most of the other Chinese people would just not obey the road rules so they are glad that the cameras are there.

I image "social credit" will be similar. Lots of people here just don't pay bills because there is no credit history and there are no debt collectors (well not like in the west anyway). If you owe money to the wrong people then it is better to just disappear but for most companies, they have no power and they cannot do anything.

icebraining3• 7 years ago

Much, if not most, of the rest of the world doesn't have a credit score either.

TeMPOraL2• 7 years ago

You mean the US-style credit score, right? Because I can't imagine a country that has banks giving out loans without at least credit worthiness analyses that are essentially credit scores, but lazily computed. And lazily-computed credit score is still credit score. E.g. in Poland, we don't have "credit score", except that the bank will happily calculate it for itself whenever you ask for a loan, which means we have to keep our interactions with credits and debts in mind, the same way Americans do.

JumpCrisscross4• 7 years ago

They also don't have a national police database so this is their attempt to do both at once

China needs a national credit score. And China needs a national police database. What it doesn’t need is both tied together with a political component layered on top.

(I think there is a good chance these experiments will backfire. We tried isolating felons amongst themselves in the United States. It just led to better-networked criminals who had no choice but to return to crime.)

adinobro3• 7 years ago

I'm still on the fence. A lot of the time when you run a credit score you also run a police check. Not always but often enough. I expect most of the other stuff will be too much effort to be kept in the score at a national level unless it is a token amount.

China doesn't have the same incarceration rate that the US has (I don't think anyone does). I also don't know how long the score will be impacted by a criminal history.

I'm not saying it will work. I'm just saying that because other countries have done it one way does not mean that every other way of doing it is automatically wrong.

As an expat here my current score is "B" but I'll move up to an "A" next year. I don't know if that score means anything...

rayiner4• 7 years ago

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, versus what you might see in Bangladesh. These virtuous behaviors are a better way to live and make life better for everyone. China seems to realize that and be trying to change culture in a systematic way. It should probably be done more by carrot than stick, but there is a a kernel of a good idea in there.

(I should note that Western countries had their own large-scale nearly universal social indoctrination and social credit systems—organized religion. Indoctrinating virtuous behaviors is a social function that needs to happen, the question is how do you do it. Note also that Chinese cities exist at a scale where the informal mechanisms for social credit break down. If you litter on my street, people will see you and they will notice. We regularly talk about neighbors who display antisocial behaviors. In New York? Outside maybe your condo board there are no such mechanisms.)

chasd00• 7 years ago

There is no good idea inside constant surveillance.

rayiner4• 7 years ago

Our successful societies originated in a state of constant (public) surveillance. When you do something in public in small town USA, people see you and that information ripples through the informal social networks. Historically, institutions like churches and schools facilitated exchange of that information. Those things breakdown when you have Chinese cities with millions of people, most of whom just moved there from somewhere else not that long ago.

It’s not just a problem in China, either. If you drive to DC from Annapolis, you’ll see car after car violating the HOV restriction on US 50. Like 80% of vehicles in the HOV lane are single occupant. How do you solve that? Or people blocking the box in DC? Or people taking lefts from K Street during rush hour, when they are prohibited? There is a cost to all that—it slows things down for everyone and undermines deliberate traffic planning. I’d support, for example, cameras that automatically ticket violators.

raxxorrax9• 7 years ago

I live in a very clean city and we don't need social credit systems to handle litter.

The jump so many people take to encourage strong enforcement for bagatelles is astonishing.

Greece also has a lot of bribes but if you would know anything about the culture, you probably wouldn't conclude that you have to liberate the country. Well, I at least hope so...

You can use the stick of course, but loosing that, all benefits it brought you would be lost too. And you would have stripped any opportunities to develop any understanding.

village-idiot7• 7 years ago

The Greeks are a fascinating case of the utter break down of social trust. Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling.

I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the belief that a country needs something fixed and saying that it needs to be “liberated” with the force of arms.

JumpCrisscross4• 7 years ago

These virtuous behaviors are a better way to live and make life better for everyone

This sidesteps that under the umbrella of “virtuous behaviours” are those that support the ruling party. Under the umbrella of undesirable behaviours is dissent of any stripe. That’s what makes this dystopian in a way e.g. London’s CCTV system is not.

wincy• 7 years ago

Unless you really upset the ruling elite, like Julian Assange, in which case the west will make your life a living hell.

aardshark2• 7 years ago

Why on earth would you walk a couple of blocks to cross the street?

Why on earth would you commend this behaviour?

I appreciate that my judgement of this behaviour depends on the street, but from my experience of Tokyo, the streets are not particularly wide, or busy.

beardedwizard• 7 years ago

Because that is where the crosswalk is.

Razengan5• 7 years ago

Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them

Which they do without the threat of a “social credit system.”

vgoh1• 7 years ago

The Chinese credit system is a relationship of those in power controlling those without power. The relationship has no checks and balances, and therefore will only become more controlling over time. This is just day 1, what do you think day 10,000 will look like? You are confusing that with relationships among peers, this is not the same at all.

quadcore• 7 years ago

Culture matters.

So what you're saying is that humans have no rights. If humans have rights, then there is a point where culture doesn't matter.

wyattpeak2• 7 years ago

What is a human right, outside of culture? Unless you're religious, what could it possibly be?

There are rights we consider so important that they all but transcend culture, but that "all but" is critical. It's only a matter of consensus, not celestial fiat.

inflatableDodo• 7 years ago

When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block)

I think that jaywalking laws are nuts, but then again I am from the UK where we get indoctrinated with a thing called 'the green cross code' in primary school, that tells us how to cross a road safely.

dsfyu404ed8• 7 years ago

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea

Any systemic attempt to direct the development of culture by the government is a terrible idea. The government should reflect the people. The people should not be nudge, cajoled or forced into accepting the culture the government wants them to have.

The line blurs when you actually have a democratically elected government (is the will of the government the will of the people) but I think it suffices to say that china's social credit system would cross it.

nearly universal social indoctrination and social credit systems—organized religion.

The church doesn't record your every misdeed and every major religion includes some strong message of forgiveness for misdeeds. It's not the middle ages anymore so the church can't bar you from doing things under threat of violence like the government can. This comparison is crazy on so many levels.

We regularly talk about neighbors who display antisocial behaviors

Any neighborhood that includes people who say things like this in a context other than to parodying the hyper-conformity you find in some of the better off parts of the US and Europe (think stuffy HOAs and local councils) is a massive red flag that your neighborhood is somewhere no freedom loving person would ever want to live.

raxxorrax9• 7 years ago

The line blurs when you actually have a democratically elected government

evidently it is blurred to some but I would suggest that your original assertion stands. They should try to keep their nudging subtle or people will nudge back at some point. It does not matter how good the intent was meant. I think we currently see a lot of this in western democracies.

mbesto• 7 years ago

These virtuous behaviors are a better way to live and make life better for everyone.

Sure, until something abuses the power to control those behaviors.

I should note that Western countries had their own large-scale nearly universal social indoctrination and social credit systems—organized religion.

And religion in the West is slowly dying by the right and will of the people. What happens when people want their social credit system to die? They won't have a choice in that matter.

This debate reeks similarly to the one about the use of electronic ballot systems, which are not better than paper ballots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI

The greatest lie were being told is that technology is democratizing our lives. It does until it reaches network effects, which it then hits an inflection point and gives power to very few.

sonnyblarney• 7 years ago

It's a sickening idea, moreover, I think you're gravely mistaken if you think this is more about 'keeping litter off the streets behaviour', than total, arbitrary control of the citizenry, mostly for political purposes.

This is the authoritarians dream: 360, total control of people's lives, right out of a dystopian novel.

Second 'organized religion' is a world wide phenom, and is only one of many means by which people are socialized.

Razengan5• 7 years ago

Second 'organized religion' is a world wide phenom

There are exceptions, including some East Asian countries, I think.

lawlessone• 7 years ago

How can they not see treating people this way will push them lower and lower?

PixyMisa• 7 years ago

That's the goal.

AFascistWorld• 7 years ago

Believe it or not, majority of the people actually like the CCP and the system, they just hate corrupt officials.

mrobot• 7 years ago

Article reads like an advertisement for his probably shitty and poorly sourced book.

Millennium• 7 years ago

In a society that does not put enough pressure on people to grow up and function, it is tempting to look at this as a possible solution. Coupling it to government power, though, is an outright horror. Any social credit system needs to be run independently, by society, not by the state (not least because of people's unfortunate tendency to remember that there is a difference).

dsfyu404ed8• 7 years ago

In a society that does not put enough pressure on people to grow up and function, it is tempting to look at this as a possible solution

Which is exactly why these kinds of developments should be worrying to the west. We're becoming less and less capable of having discussions and drawing hard lines when it comes to maturity and personal responsibility.

archagon• 7 years ago

grow up and function

What exactly do you mean by this?

raxxorrax9• 7 years ago

Your comment suggest you are from the first world and that your parents did not put enough pressure on you. Otherwise your reflection upon your wealth wouldn't result in this tirade.

You have been credited -13 social $$$.

Authorities have been informed. You will also need to clear your room, because your social credit indicates that it is just a bit too nice for you.

linyu02192• 7 years ago

the media bias score of nypost base on adfontesmedia is only 20,selected Story. https://www.adfontesmedia.com/ . https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/ https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings As a chinese some mistakes in article 1.the phone bells the ban of trains or flights. all because the debt which courts can not enforce. all the methods only want you obey the judgements.

2.alipay the paypal of alibaba, has a system, like the ebay store rates, the score now can benefit the Second-hand trading. all these system is about economy. Nothing with political issue.

linyu02192• 7 years ago

political problem don't need score system.

China’s new ‘social credit system’

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