60% of male managers now say they're uncomfortable mentoring women

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/60-male-managers-now-apos-183717869.html

by bubmiw • 7 years ago

97 83 7 years ago

uk.finance.yahoo.com

itsaidpens2• 7 years ago

This is bullshit. Don’t be a creep. Period, end of story. Hire and promote fairly. You won’t have a problem.

geodel• 7 years ago

Thank you for such reassuring message.

itsaidpens2• 7 years ago

It should be, honestly. The solution is simple to execute. DM me, not kidding, If you want some scenario coaching.

illumin8• 7 years ago

Seriously, don't be a dick is pretty easy to understand. I've met so many brilliant female engineers that I can't imagine what toxic bullshit causes people to think this way.

Itsdijital2• 7 years ago

That's not the issue and not the cause of this.

The problem is the extreme power imbalance, where any woman you interact with can snap her fingers and destroy your life/career.

Let me put it this way: It's incredibly rare that a bear attacks a human. But pretty much everyone will still avoid a bear if they can. This has nothing to do with "don't piss off the bear and you'll be fine" and everything to do with "if that bear does decide to attack you, you are completely defenseless".

coconut_crab3• 7 years ago

Yep, I don't see why is this a problem, just act professionally, don't be a creep. I have mentored many programmers, both male and female and i have zero problems with either. There are some subtleties in dealing with the fairer sex such as different kind of encouragement, read between the line when they say they are tired, making sure that their understanding is correct etc... but generally it's the same for both sexes: respect them and their personal space.

WillPostForFood4• 7 years ago

There are some subtleties in dealing with the fairer sex such as different kind of encouragement, read between the line when they say they are tired, making sure that their understanding is correct etc...

That kind of generalization is exactly what can torpedo your career. Try putting those thoughts about the fairer sex in a memo or blog post and see what response you get.

WillPostForFood4• 7 years ago

It didn't say they were uncomfortable hiring or promoting women, it said mentoring which implies a more personal relationship. Specific example from the article, which doesn't seem like bullshit:

nine times more likely to be hesitant to travel with a junior woman for work than a junior man, and six times more likely to be hesitant to have a work dinner with a junior woman than a junior man.

This is, unfortunately, a rational response to the current climate.

mjevans• 7 years ago

Let's do a simple test and reverse the roles.

Yup, it's still rational in that respect too; this sucks and the way to fix it seems to be at the organizational level. Make it not one on one meetings, and make it "public" record (transparent), and make the support systems for reporting abuse in either direction act on that public record.

untog3• 7 years ago

Why is it a rational response? I've travelled with female co-workers before, it's not as if the company made us share a bed. We were just two people travelling. I don't really understand how the "current climate" would make me rethink that.

ecwilson2• 7 years ago

This is, unfortunately, a rational response to the current climate.

Yes! It is rational to have a fear response to the prospect of being held accountable. Because we have not had a culture of accountability, many men are not confident in their ability NOT to behave in a harmful manner, even if they do not intend to harm. That feeling of discomfort is from finally having to think about these things. I hope more men embrace that discomfort instead of resent it.

downandout• 7 years ago

I think the point is that you may indeed have a problem, despite your best intentions. Nobody knows what will offend or make another person uncomfortable these days. Sure, there are standard things that everyone agrees is wrong. But entirely innocent conduct can be misinterpreted, people project their own biases and assumptions into those interpretations, etc. In the MeToo era, that can be enough to destroy a career.

sfink5• 7 years ago

All true. It sucks. Another thing that sucks is losing your job and even your career because you rejected your boss's advances.

briandear3• 7 years ago

So there haven’t been false accusations? Women have never threatened superiors with unmerited claims? Given the potential for a single false claim to destroy a career, the prudent thing is to avoid situations where such claims could even be plausible. There are more than a few stories of people using false sexual harassment claims to win settlements from companies.

Just an accusation can result in huge legal bills, a loss of reputation and other consequences. https://veterinarybusinessadvisors.com/guilty-until-proven-i...

Here’s an example of how delicate this stuff can be: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/a-colleague-threaten...

If you are a manager or executive, it’s a real risk that you’ll get dragged through the mud by a false accusation. In a world we’re he-said she-said is biased towards “believing women,” it would be prudent to avoid close professional relationships with women. Literally decades later it can come back to bite you. Remember that while the man may “hire and promote fairly,” not all people necessarily act honestly and “fairly” can be very subjective. Just an accusation can torpedo a career.

Acting like “it’s bullshit” is to ignore the litigious society in which we operate.

didibus4• 7 years ago

It is complicated for sure. I think though, overall, there is over exageration of the risk. What's the probability? If it's so low you're more likely to die in the next 30 days then have it happen to you for example, then it's pretty irrational of a response from the managers surveyed.

Now, I don't know the statistics, I think we need some to know if we're being absurd and irrationally afraid or not.

Similarly, we also need to remember the flip side, many of these interactions used too and still are real risks to women as they can get harassed and abused as well. Again, statistics might help.

Either statistic is hard to find though, because ground truth is difficult and most cases don't necessarily get recorded or even mentioned.

Hopefully, we slowly figure all this out and how to balance it all.

benatkin5• 7 years ago

It seems like the path forward is clear. Sandberg:

"The thing is, it's not enough," she says. "It's really important to not harass anyone, but that's pretty basic. We also need to not be ignored."

There's no need to walk back any part of MeToo to solve this problem, just to keep pushing forward.

paganel• 7 years ago

Why would a billionaire business person feel “ignored”? Why does that person feel the need to speak for other persons whose experiences are most probably alien to her?

benatkin5• 7 years ago

The more people who hear your message, the more people can actively ignore your message. While her chances of being ignored by everyone go down, the number of people who will ignore her goes up.

educationdata• 7 years ago

No. Real world is not that simple. Certain things are only considered harass between man and woman, but not between same sex. For example, asking to meet (drink, sports, etc.) after work. So there's a choice between either "ignore" or "harass".

Yes, you don't have to do these, but some people just like buddyhood kind of binding more than others.

benatkin5• 7 years ago

That's a problem for the managers to solve, and they can solve it by reducing the number of business dinners they do with men, if they can't figure out a good way to do business dinners with women. The work hours and the options for dining near the office might mean that it's too difficult to have a work dinner that isn't too cozy, and if it is, so be it. It's entirely their responsibility to have management practices that aren't sexist.

didibus4• 7 years ago

Why are you asking someone to meet you after work? I'm confused? That's a work meeting?

Lendal• 7 years ago

So 60% of male managers admit they aren't good managers. Good. Step aside then, and let others more capable than you have a chance to prove themselves.

ecwilson2• 7 years ago

Male manager here. This is not at all hard to believe.

jonnybgood• 7 years ago

A female coworker of mine just recently shared with me that she was treated like this in her previous workplace. She felt alienated and as if she was some kind of harlot ready to ruin the lives of her male coworkers. She’s happy to not be in that workplace anymore.

mclightning• 7 years ago

harlot, that's the first time I see that used in a sentence outside of dictionary :D (not a native eng speaker)

16e6471bd4b781• 7 years ago

Based on the tenor this has already taken, I’m replying with a throwaway.

I have changed my behavior around women subordinates. It sucks, but that’s the reality. At this point I’m as concerned with the appearance of impropriety as I am false accusations. I know who I am and I trust myself. Everyone else? Not so much anymore.

ianai• 7 years ago

Changed how?

walru3• 7 years ago

Regardless of skill or experience, they seem to be getting promoted over other more qualified individuals, anyway. At least that's what I've noticed in my places of work over the last four years. I'd hate to tell you how many of those places went under as it's all anecdotal. I am however getting a little put out by people around me not getting promoted on merit, but on optics.

neuronexmachina• 7 years ago

Regardless of skill or experience, they seem to be getting promoted over other more qualified individuals, anyway

Are you referring to 60% of male managers, or women they mentor?

walru3• 7 years ago

I'm saying it doesn't seem to matter if they've been mentored or have the proper level of skill to perform the tasks.

That said, why should someone more senior train someone to take a job they themselves should be getting?

unknownkadath2• 7 years ago

When an incompetent man gets promoted it's all "Peter Principle, brogrammer, Dilbert joke, hurr durr."

When an incompetent woman gets promoted, it's because she's a woman.

walru3• 7 years ago

Parden? I'm talking about people getting promoted into positions they aren't qualified for and sinking companies. I really don't care about your sex, race or who you like to invite into bed. I'd rather be on a winning team.

apta• 7 years ago

Can't it be both? Men tend to be more aggressive, so the Peter Principle is more likely to apply to them.

tehjoker• 7 years ago

Alternative headline: 60% of males rethinking how they interact with women after decades because protests broke through and raised consciousness. Change isn't comfortable, it's not supposed to be. It's only supposed to be just.

This goes for technical skills and moral ones too. You feel bad until you're better.

atdt• 7 years ago

Sexual harassment and gender-based discrimination are real and urgent issues, but the path forward will not be lit by Facebook COO Cheryl Sandberg and SurveyMonkey marketing material. She has no moral credibility.

6Wc1p3KH2• 7 years ago

Throwaway for obvious reasons.

I'm not a manager, but I eat lunch/dinner one on one with men far more than I eat lunch/dinner with women, and it's because I try not to be a creep. I try to manage bias and I try to be aware of when I might be doing something for a coworker just because she's female and pretty, and unfortunately that means that when it is actually genuinely appropriate to grab dinner together and talk about our work I second-guess myself. When it does happen, it's usually a more senior coworker taking the initiative first.

No idea how to stop doing it other than time and experience. If you've got tips, throw them out there.

kthejoker22• 7 years ago

Don't make it a dinner or drinks? Just meet and discuss work 1 on 1. That's the surest way to communicate the intentions of the meeting.

Also: do you offer to mentor the "not pretty" females? That statement alone in your post shows a remarkable immaturity in you about women in the workplace.

6Wc1p3KH2• 7 years ago

Don't make it a dinner or drinks? Just meet and discuss work 1 on 1. That's the surest way to communicate the intentions of the meeting.

The problem here is non-formal social opportunities that aren't meetings and don't take the place of meetings. If there's solid work-related content to discuss then of course you can meet with someone and discuss it, but that's not the same as grabbing dinner with someone when you're both working late and chattering about career-related stuff.

Also: do you offer to mentor the "not pretty" females? That statement alone in your post shows a remarkable immaturity in you about women in the workplace.

Of course I do, I mentor anyone who asks to be mentored. Formal work relationships like mentoring aren't a problem because they're explicitly endorsed by the company and usually facilitated by a manager or initiated by the mentee. I worry that I'm being too condescending as a mentor because of implicit bias, or overcompensating in the direction of not giving enough help, but that's a different problem.

"Am I doing this because she's pretty?" is relevant to the conversation about this article because creepy behavior by men who are attracted to women seems to be a core complaint of professional women and a part of the #MeToo movement, and men are asked to be aware of their own biases and motivations and actions to try to fix this.

shakna2• 7 years ago

I can understand the reluctance, up to a point.

I'm male, I've been accused of sexual abuse, and it was thrown out because it became exceedingly clear that it never happened. That was extremely unpleasant to go through, and I'd rather never go through it again.

However, it hasn't had an ongoing effect on my relationships with women, just the one woman. I'm still more than happy to work with my coworkers regardless of their sex, and I'm more than happy to guide anyone who happens to fall under my leadership.

Anybody accused is first judged by the audience. A certain amount of guilt is assumed. That you let yourself into a potentially compromising situation, or you sought out the situation.

And I imagine the higher you are up a managerial chain, the higher the stakes are when you get accused.

There is a human cost, even if "nothing comes of it".

I imagine many of these managers are terrified of the ordeal, of lawyers, they don't know if the company will support them until a judgement is made or kick them to the curb. Of the effect it may have on their family, where they might already have strained relationships with their spouses.

They don't want to potentially risk it, because the power dynamics at play are not in their favour from the outset. The system is biased to find fault, rather than first determine if there was fault.

At the same time, we can't cut the authority of the system in any way - the people it protects, who genuinely need protection, often are already in a power imbalance of their own.

The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for those under you. If you can't be, then perhaps a management position is not appropriate for you. Perhaps you need to learn to thrive in a different role. Harsh, certainly, but as the environment stands, ignoring those under your care will only help to promote an environment where women are once again second-class citizens.

roenxi• 7 years ago

The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for those under you.

A lot of people aren't squeaky clean paragons of virtue in everything they do in combination with being secure and confident in their position in the corporate hierarchy. So your suggestion seems to be boiling down to 'figure it out'. What is your fallback if the required behaviors are complicated or hard to figure out? Men-women relationships are fundamentally asymmetrical and unbalanced, and it is the case that most people are poor communicators.

There is an underlying theme to these conversations that everyone should have a basic expectation that they can come to work and enjoy a safe, respectful work environment. That applies to managers just as much as subordinates - if companies are going to act on accusations then they need very clear policy on how much evidence is needed to put a manager's career at risk.

Unless the state of the field is very clear, it isn't reasonable to tell the managers that their role is to put themselves at risk professionally and work it out as they go. The conversation needs to be more detailed about what, exactly, the managers are expected to do outside the formal frameworks and what level of evidence is needed for them to get into trouble.

shakna2• 7 years ago

A lot of people aren't squeaky clean paragons of virtue in everything they do in combination with being secure and confident in their position in the corporate hierarchy.

Absolutely. It's why I tried to humanise the difficulty of the manager's position. Management is hard enough, without being hyper aware of a culture where actions of all kinds can be easily misconstrued. Hell, getting someone a coffee in the morning can be considered dangerous.

So your suggestion seems to be boiling down to 'figure it out'.

I'm afraid I can't offer a suggestion for someone trying to figure things out.

All I can say is, if it becomes clear to you that you can't figure out, if you can't find the right balance and those fears are stopping you from doing part of your job, specifically leading women...

... Then maybe you shouldn't be, at least until you do work things out. If you're becoming a problem, and can't find any other solution, then it's probably best for everyone, including yourself, that you aren't in that situation anymore.

Don't take the stress, and don't hurt your colleagues.

threatofrain• 7 years ago

It's Vice President Michael Pence's personal policy to never meet 1 on 1 with a woman unless it's with his wife.

faissaloo• 7 years ago

He has the right idea.

lostmymind66• 7 years ago

This is not surprising. We are in a hyper-sensitive society now where many people are accused and lose their entire career and possibly marriage through the court of public opinion.

As a result, it would be smart of most men in these positions to either not mentor at all or always have someone else in the room. I wouldn't be surprised if companies started having everything recorded at some point.

The real problem is that false accusers won't face many repercussions compared to the accused. Some men accused are even found to have done nothing and it doesn't matter. People still believe they did something.

dev_dull• 7 years ago

I wouldn't be surprised if companies started having everything recorded at some point.

More and more I’m seeing managers have their 1:1s in public areas, such as cafeterias or outdoor seating.

vidanay• 7 years ago

Where everyone has their noise cancelling headphones on. Sure, it stops the vast majority of physical possibilities, but doesn't do much for verbal.

anon77887• 7 years ago

I'm still getting over a situation which occurred a month ago, and as it stands I will probably have to leave my job.

I hired a female contractor engineer (in the UK contractors are paid daily, supposed to be easy to hire/fire), my manager is also female. 2 weeks after the engineer started, I knew she wouldn't be able to stay in the team because her work was not good (she was spending a lot of time chatting around, and not producing good quality code). Everybody complains to me that my engineer is not performing well, but my manager makes me keep her. A month later my manager asks for a meeting with me, and says that my contractor has been complaining about micro-management, and that it can be seen as bullying or harassment. Because of that I leave for 2 weeks, and it takes another month to get rid of the contractor.

Learnings: I actually handled the situation very well, but I suffered a lot from the way my manager handled the situation. I have myself managed, hired and fired dozens of people in my career. Yet as soon as it was a girl, the rules of the game completely changed, and it didn't matter who was right or wrong. No matter how much I want to be inclusive and how much I want to give equal rights to everybody, other people (and even females) don't see it that way, and still want to make a distinction between sexes.

thecolorblue• 7 years ago

Referring to her as a girl is not helping your case.

laresistance• 7 years ago

What is the opposite of a guy, then?

dvfjsdhgfv• 7 years ago

It's because if you get burnt once, you'll always be on guard. It takes one abuser to change the lives of several people at once.

sfink5• 7 years ago

The study is fine. It's reporting some statistics that I find believable. Statistics on men's worries, mind, not on occurrences of actual harm.

The reactions I'm seeing are... not helpful for the most part.

One reaction is that this is a horrible thing because it is unfair. I agree that it is an unfortunate part of our current reality. So is the possibility of being forced into uncomfortable situations, or more generally, being sexually harassed when you're a blameless woman in the workplace. I don't see a way of resolving that unfairness without any negative impact on blameless men.

We can certainly try to work together in good faith to minimize negative impact while creating positive change. But wailing and moaning about the balance of power tipping slightly away from us (I'm a white male) is not acting in good faith. It's just plain entitlement.

The #metoo movement's direct impact puts me at more risk than before. And I've taken advantage of my cultural immunity more than once in my life. I'm not proud of some things in my past, and I'm not free from the possibility of doing more things in the future. I have problematic biases and attitudes. But I'd rather live in, and have my kids grow up in, the sort of world that #metoo is leading us towards than the world that (I hope) we're leaving behind.

Besides, some of this abject fear over being accused of the things that we've actually done would be lessened if the patriarchal walls of silence and secrecy were torn down so we could all see what is actually happening in the world, rather than the whitewashed appearance of perfect honor and respect that we all pretend is real. I don't think my personal lapses would be judged too harshly if compared against reality. But they look pretty bad if compared to all the guys professing purity and innocence -- because we as a society have somehow fooled ourselves into believing them.

60% of male managers are nervous about mentoring women. What percentage of working women are nervous about what their male coworkers might do one at any point in the future?

And fuck that, what percentage have already experienced worse than what a male manager might realistically experience from a complaint about his behavior in a 1-1? And don't bother pulling out the "but what if absolutely nothing happened but the woman accused him unfairly and he lost his job and wife and kids and had to live under a bridge until he killed himself??!" unless you have some solid evidence that this happens more often than women get raped by acquaintances.

Or if you don't like that comparison, maybe look at the number of women who lose jobs or careers or get blacklisted as a result of someone else harassing them.

samhain• 7 years ago

And fuck that, what percentage have already experienced worse than what a male manager might realistically experience from a complaint about his behavior in a 1-1? And don't bother pulling out the "but what if absolutely nothing happened but the woman accused him unfairly and he lost his job and wife and kids and had to live under a bridge until he killed himself??!" unless you have some solid evidence that this happens more often than women get raped by acquaintances.

If the percentage of women that experienced problems were actually really low, and if rape basically didn't happen in the work place, how would that change the way we should have this discussion?

It sounds like you're saying women raped by acquaintances and women having problems in the work place are related. I've always interpreted it as they are acquaintances through friend groups, not necessarily through work. I guess it'd be interesting to see a study of what percentage the acquaintances are known through work explicitly, then maybe that could shed some light on where the tensions come from.

sfink5• 7 years ago

No, and I probably shouldn't have derailed it by mentioning rape. The point is that people react to the possibility of accusation by thinking up the most extreme scenarios. So I'm saying that if you're going to base it on extreme scenarios for men, you need to compare it to extreme scenarios for women -- which happen more often in practice, so can't be faulted for being more extreme.

It would be more useful to not use the extreme scenarios when working through this stuff. They're really bad, but rare, and so not all that relevant.

random1239872• 7 years ago

That's funny how a comment thread in topics like this explodes into its own version of Me Too. The only "slight" difference is that MeToo talks about actual rape which happened, while this version is about "feeling uncomfortable while imagining things".

Nevertheless, I do have a certain empathy for the people who talk about their fears here. I have mine too. Again there is this small difference: while you fear that a certain accusation(which happens how often?) can ruin your carrier, I have a fear that your fear can ruin my carrier with >60% chance. Without possibility for me to get accused explicitly, leaving me no chance to defend myself.

While I'm taking a moment to feel your fears, can I ask you to do the same for mine?

simonblack• 7 years ago

It's the same sort of problem with males not wishing to be classified as 'paedophiles' and children.

Once upon a time, I would have tried to help distressed children. These days I walk straight past them. Let the next female do the consoling.

60% of male managers now say they're uncomfortable mentoring women

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