How to impress Joel Spolsky

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/25432/how-can-a-new-programmer-impress-the-software-engineer-boss

by rlmw • 16 years ago

201 76 16 years ago

programmers.stackexchange.com

rlmw• 16 years ago

"Ashton even wrote a macro for Jeff that automated that one task. Jeff didn’t want to get caught, so he refused to install it. They weren’t on speaking terms after that. It was awkward."

My favourite quote.

unoti3• 16 years ago

It's so true, too. Productivity really does alienate slackers. Who was it that said small teams Do not tolerate freeloaders?

dkarl2• 16 years ago

To be fair to Jeff, he understood that Ashton was in the wrong place to be doing what he was doing. He might as well have been knitting mittens in the Congo. It took Ashton two years to realize that Jeff was the one who understood what the company offered and what the company expected in return.

kylec• 16 years ago

You could start by spelling "Spolsky" correctly

timmorgan• 16 years ago

I don't mean to be dumb, but I really don't get it. How does that story answer the question, other than to imply that in a few years, nothing the OP will have done will matter at all. Sort of sad.

martingordon• 16 years ago

The impression I get from that little story is that if you don't write code that matters, you don't matter (as an engineer).

jammur• 16 years ago

I think the point of the story may be that you can't wait for the hard problems to come to you. You have to go and look for them. Ashton waited at the furniture company hoping that one day he would be presented with a problem that would gain him recognition. After years of waiting, he decided he couldn't wait any longer and went to San Francisco to FIND a problem that would get him the recognition he wanted.

Tycho• 16 years ago

You nailed it. I was going to say 'if your work doesn't challenge you, you need to find a new job' or 'don't let your job stand in the way of your development'

It's interesting how people came up with different interpretations or 'take home points.' This thread has made me think about the essence of storytelling. I guess it's like

- people always do things for reasons

- when people do strange things, we tell stories about it

- the stories are interesting because we must reconcile the strangeness with the motivation (ie. its interesting because the motivation is not immediately obvious but we know it must be there unless the subject was insane)

- the job of fiction is to imagine new 'interesting' cases; the difficulty is keeping it 'true.' The author doesn't have the luxury of relating what did happen, he/she has to project what would happen, sort of like a machine plugging endless variables into an equation until an unusual/unexpected (but still valid) result crops up

Someone could teach a high school English class with Joel's SO post

unoti3• 16 years ago

I read it differently, perhaps because I feel so strongly about this idea: do a good job, focus on what's important. If management doesn't appreciate you for that, then it's a terrible place to work. If you're doing a good job and they aren't appreciating it, then you seriously need to gtfo. If you don't, you will rot.

Over the years as I've looked around me, I've seen a lot of people stagnating in their jobs. Sometimes it's because of lack of effort from the developer, and sometimes it's because of poor management.

But if doing a great job isn't already enough, then maybe the job is a poor fit. The parable in the story touches on both of these issues: trying hard, and the struggle to please management.

A third issue that's perhaps more important: you need to find the work fulfilling for your own reasons. Working exclusively for the praise of your superiors is a good way to be unhappy with your employment in most places. So figure that out, or go to a place where the work matters.

And buyer beware: there are places even in San Francisco where doing good development work will garner you no notice. I just left such a place.

blntechie• 16 years ago

Think many HNers won't find their life similar to Ashton's. Unfortunately, mine is. At least, the job part is. Honestly, it's not much bad but it looks like it's leading towards the same frustration.

HeyLaughingBoy• 16 years ago

focus on what's important. If management doesn't appreciate you for that, then it's a terrible place to work

Do you mean focus on what's important to you or what's important to management? I agree that if you focus on what's important to the people you work for and they don't appreciate that, then it's a crappy place to work. But what's important to a developer is often completely irrelevant to the business.

patio112• 16 years ago

How does that story answer the question, other than to imply that in a few years, nothing the OP will have done will matter at all.

I think the thesis is "If in a few years nothing you have done will matter at all, then go change that even if doing so makes you look like a madman."

tptacek5• 16 years ago

Impressing your boss is a crappy career goal. Even if your boss is amazing.

duck2• 16 years ago

I like your version better. I don't know what it is, I use to love reading his stuff for hours, but then one day I just couldn't stand it. Did this happen to anyone else?

patio112• 16 years ago

I don't know: people crave recognition from their communities. For some people, the boss is an important constituent there. (Plus, there are emminently practical reasons why one would like to have a boss think you were very good at what you do. It is an intermediate step to getting other things you want.)

Granted, I am no longer a salaryman so clearly this wasn't my #1 aspiration in life.

azanar2• 16 years ago

What if your "boss" is only a boss by organizational title, but is in truth more of a peer?

That is, they play the part for the areas of the company that need the organizational structure to be comfortable. But, amongst the developers they seem no different than the rest; just as capable, and impressed by the same things.

keeptrying• 16 years ago

Even for advancement in a corporate world, it's much more effective to keep your boss happy but impress your boss's boss.

tung• 16 years ago

My face-value interpretation of it is that you don't become a great programmer by impressing your boss.

mechanical_fish• 16 years ago

A different restatement: If you're standing there at work and you are forced to ask the web what you could do that would make a meaningful difference -- either to your boss, or more importantly to yourself -- go stand someplace else.

AlexeyMK• 16 years ago

I feel like Joel really misses blogging. Good writing is just kind of pouring out of him, spilling here and there.

staunch• 16 years ago

Seriously. He's still got it.

X-Istence• 16 years ago

I think I may be missing the point of the story ...

snissn• 16 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)

tptacek5• 16 years ago

Oh, come on, Joel. Grand Haven isn't that bad. It's only slightly colder than Manhattan, and just 15 minutes further inland you're in a weird Michigan microclimate where they can grow decent wine grapes. The beaches are fucking beautiful --- those are the beaches they shot the end of Road to Perdition on.

And I bet the chairs they give you at that company are awesome.

cwbrandsma• 16 years ago

I lived in Grand Rapids for 5 years (4 of them were college). Not going back. EVER. Most claustrophobia inducing environment I've ever lived in (the trees man, the trees, you can't get out of the trees). But the beaches are nice.

tptacek5• 16 years ago

Grand Rapids is like an hour and a half inland from Grand Haven. =)

juiceandjuice• 16 years ago

Coming from the desert, I feel the opposite.

bsytko• 16 years ago

I believe Joel was talking about Holland, MI and Herman Miller.

In the story he mentions a name Charlie Sherman, which could be some kind of reference to Herman Miller. Later on he talks about the Gerald R. Ford freeway, which is I-196 that runs right through Holland.

Furthermore, a Google Maps search of Herman Miller in Holland would indicate that there are several possibilities for a person to be driving on Lincoln Ave in which a left would direct them to Herman Miller and going straight would run them into I-196 [1].

Now, the question in my mind is: How does Joel know so much about West Michigan and in such great detail that he can accurately portray the directions he would turn. According to Joel's Wikipedia profile [2], he has never been close to Michigan his entire life. It appears to me he has never even set foot in this great state. So he can not be talking about himself. Jeff Atwood makes no mention of anything relating to Michigan on his profile [2], so I would not believe to the story a reference to Jeff.

Someone would had to have been particularly close to Joel for him to remember a story such as this in such great detail. The search continues....

[1] http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Spolsky [3] http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2004/02/about-me.html

-Internet Detective

tptacek5• 16 years ago

He's clearly talking about Herman Miller. You're right; Herman Miller is closer to Holland than Grand Haven. I was going by memory; we drive past it several times a year on our way to our family's cottage.

Lagged2Death• 16 years ago

>Someone would had to have been particularly close to Joel for him to remember a story such as this in such great detail...

Or it could have been reconstructed from the emails and/or blog postings the story was originally told in.

Or it could be entirely fiction, the corroborating details made up using the same tools you're using to track them down as reference material.

duck2• 16 years ago

Funny how the guy that doesn't do anything in the story is named Jeff.

jpr• 16 years ago

What is that a reference to? I suppose this is what I get for not owning a tv.

nostrademons• 16 years ago

I think duck is insinuating that it's a reference to Jeff Atwood, Joel's cofounder for Stack Exchange.

cfinke• 16 years ago

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-constantly-mention...

turbodog• 16 years ago

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-constantly-mention...

rayvega• 16 years ago

The writing style of both the posted question and Joel's response gave off such a "Dear Abby" advice column vibe that it was a pleasant, surprising piece to read on a usual by-the-numbers Q&A site. If he ever returns to blogging, a "Dear Joel" format might be an entertaining read.

sizzla• 16 years ago

What the story might leave out is that Ashton's family is in a lot of trouble, Mom alcoholic, Dad MIA a long time ago. Mom's boyfriend is a physically abusive guy and thinking about that prick gave him strength to do just one more rep on his 200 lb bench-press routine. He could never quite fit in with the rich "middle class" kids from the big cities, preferring to drink Pabst Blue Ribbon with his high-school buddies, get stoned and listen to 80s hard-rock. On one or two occasions, he read Hacker News but thought ... well, the readers here might get angry but our farm boy thought all of them were sheltered dweebs who did not know a damn thing about how real life is like.

On one of those occasions where their crowd was full of freshman girls who were really looking forward to getting wasted and laid that night, in drunken stupor Ashton heard Wayne calling out to him. He hasn't seen Wayne since he joined the Army 2 years ago. Man it was good to see him again, he's the kind of buddy who'd get in a fight for you without asking a single question. Wayne knows what's up, Ashton thought to himself as they talked about Wikileaks and f__king sh__ up. Giggly girls just kept interrupting his conversation and, irritated, he asked one of them if she would give away a government secret if all it was doing was covering someone's ass for raping some 9 year old dancing boys in Afghanistan. Janice just clammed up and some of her ditsiness immediately disappeared. Not having much to say, feeling put on the spot, a bit shamed and a bit embarassed, she remembered him well that night, but that's another story.

Wayne and Ashton went to Bobbie's Diner to sober up with some greasy burgers and shoot the sh_t. Soon enough they weren't talking about tits, even though Janice had a really nice pair... Wayne kept telling him how much of cool stuff the military really does and how he could hook him up. Man, Wayne knows what's up, he thought to himself. Besides, if it came to working with guys like Wayne or the dweebs in San Francisco, it was a no brainer....

That's at least how Ashton thought about things back then... but then again, he was only 20. Nowadays he spends his time working for DISA on new worms. Everyone needs a botnet nowadays, even the government. It's really cool work, he learned a lot. But he knows damn well that's something he's never going to be able to talk about. At least Wayne gets to post bullshit on Twitter as th3j3st3r, he thinks to himself. His $80k salary is pretty damn good, and even his Mom is better, she dumped that dickwad. Though she is really getting old, all that alcohol just turned har brain to mush and she sometimes doesn't make sense. Maybe it'd be better he went to Silicon Valley, but then, just glancing over at the picture of him, Janice and their adorable 3 year old made him say "fuck no!" loud enough that his officemate looked up at him with that "dude, are you allright?" look.. He would've never met Jen and would probably still be chasing money like a wannabe pornstar in Los Angeles...

softbuilder• 16 years ago

All I can think about is Batman vs. Spock. I mean, it's Spock, right? It's gotta be.

puredemo• 16 years ago

Definitely batman, he has way more gear.

psadauskas• 16 years ago

Spock has a starship; I think that counts as more gear.

jasonkester2• 16 years ago

That bit was lifted straight from the Usenet in the '90s.

Back in the day, before there was much of anything going on on the internet, entire communities with brainpower of the same magnitude as this one would spend months on end debating whether the USS Enterprise could defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer.

I've witnessed these debates, and they were epic in scale.

Substitute SQL and noSQL, and you'll get an idea of what it was like.

kevinpet• 16 years ago

I thought about writing a blog post once because I think I've finally found the key insight to being a successful engineer. Then I realized it isn't long enough for a blog post.

Simple rule: if you're the smartest person in the room, go look for a room with smarter people in it.

InfinityX0• 16 years ago

The only problem: I think we all believe we're the smartest person in the room, or at very least inflate our own "intelligence" some modicum amount, every time, so that someone who is actually 20 or so % smarter than us we actually see ourselves as slightly superior to. So, it's hard to make this judgment call, or, if we did, we'd be traveling a damn lot.

ronnier• 16 years ago

I always feel the dumbest or close to it (honestly). At my new gig I'll really feel bad :/

PakG1• 16 years ago

I think that's only true for people who've never been humbled. If you've been humbled, you are more easily able to question yourself and recognize if you're not the smartest in the room. At least, that's the way it worked for me. :)

chrisbroadfoot• 16 years ago

I think you need to find smarter people, then. I'm constantly amazed (in a good way) by the people I work and socialise with.

mkramlich• 16 years ago

whenever I'm alone in a room I always think I'm the smartest guy in the room.

angrycoder• 16 years ago

My simple rule: find the guy who thinks he is the smartest person in the room and stay the hell away from him.

khafra• 16 years ago

Sometimes he's right, though; and if you can swallow your distaste you can learn quite a bit. Fortunately, it's easy to tell if a vain person's judgement of his own intelligence is correct if you're smarter than he is.

Helianthus16• 16 years ago

Optimization: don't find the guy who thinks he is the smartest person in the room.

Hexstream• 16 years ago

What if he actually is the smartest person in the room? Maybe even by far?

On the other hand, if you have that kind of attitude it will probably be mutually beneficial if you stay the hell away from him so it's a good strategy.

jfb• 16 years ago

Very well stated; and I agree 100%.

jasonkester2• 16 years ago

It's hard to believe that we used to get a new story like this every few weeks.

Joel is such an enjoyable author to read that it really doesn't matter what he's writing about. He could be writing about some random Distributed Version Control system you have no intention of using (and he has) and you could still be pretty sure you'd be in for a pleasant 15 minutes.

I hope somebody can convince the guy to put stuff like this up on JoelOnSoftware. I mean sure, somebody might accuse him of blogging again (god forbid), but selfishly it would be nice not to have to rely on HackerNews to find little gems like this for me.

RiderOfGiraffes• 16 years ago

This was a good read, yes, but did anyone here really learn anything new from it? I don't understand why it's go so many upvotes, and I'd really like to know what I've missed.

"Write code that people use, and ship it."

Was there anything else?

sudont• 16 years ago

"Impressing your boss is a crappy career goal. Even if your boss is amazing.” -- tptacek

Linking the comment, give him the upvotes: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1994344

trobinson• 16 years ago

by spelling his lastname correctly?

EGreg• 16 years ago

Wow! Spock vs Batman! I never thought about it!

jonsagara• 16 years ago

On a related note: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-12-11/

bluesnowmonkey• 16 years ago

Best way: build something that you know will break, then be prepared to swoop in and fix it. Whenever you fix one bug, add another. Repeat ad infinitum. Some people will be impressed by your resourcefulness. Others will be angry that things break at all, but over time these people will get fed up and leave. Eventually a culture will develop wherein it is accepted that IT systems are just fundamentally unreliable. You will get stable long-term employment, a good salary, and regular (though superficial) praise and deference from everyone around you, including your boss.

This strategy is extremely reliable. I have seen it used successfully at every company I've ever worked at, large and small, in multiple industries.

Another approach is to develop an internal professional ethic and pursue it irrespective of office politics. It's not as good for career stability but you sleep better.

How to impress Joel Spolsky

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