On DataCamp and sexual misconduct

https://juliasilge.com/blog/datacamp-misconduct/

by chasedehan • 7 years ago

89 67 7 years ago

Why are these posts always so impossibly vague?

What's happened? What does she think has gone wrong? Why does she think should be done about it?

People struggle so much to get the basics across in their writing! I have to follow a long trail of equally vague posts like an archeologist to understand what happened.

minimaxir5• 7 years ago

There's been a lot written already on the background, which is linked to in this post.

https://noamross.github.io/datacamp-sexual-assault/

chrisseaton4• 7 years ago

So why does this post then obfuscate these facts as 'an incident of sexual misconduct'? Why be so intentionally vague?

About two weeks ago, DataCamp published a blog post outlining an incident of sexual misconduct at the company.

Could have been

About two weeks ago, DataCamp published a blog post outlining an incident where one of DataCamp’s executives danced inappropriately and made uninvited physical contact with another employee

Forward-load the basic facts so we don't have to go down a rabbit hole.

jxramos• 7 years ago

I entirely agree, presumption of knowledge is all too evident here and it burdens newcomers getting on board with the details. I gave up in exasperation when it droned on, and even when I skipped to the latter third. I may have entirely lost the specifics in between that I was looking for but no time left on my patience budget. A simple “for those unfamiliar with the situation ...<summary paragraph>”

sonnyblarney5• 7 years ago

From the ref: "Specifically, in October 2017, at an informal employee gathering at a bar after a week-long company offsite, one of DataCamp’s executives danced inappropriately and made uninvited physical contact with another employee while on the dance floor."

Which again is ambiguous because we're going from - someone swung someone around on the dance floor, to 'danced with someone' which involved 'two people touching' (gasp), to someone grabbing/groping someone in an utterly unacceptable way.

And boundaries are different depending on culture, and context (i.e. work, not really work, social, setting, 'consistent bad behaviour' vs. 'one time') etc. etc. etc..

Even with the 'details' it might still be a debate unless it's just blatantly bad.

Edit: I'm not going to defend anyone who's done anything obviously bad, I'm saying the information that we have easy access to is a little grey.

floatingatoll4• 7 years ago

The one thing that isn’t relevant to this post is the details of the original offense. Their objections to the resulting outcomes stands apart from the details of the original offense, and their focus on those outcomes is permissible and appropriate when one desires to avoid creating a pitchfork mob.

pcstl8• 7 years ago

Is the original offense not relevant, though? I mean, how many of the people crying foul on DataCamp's treatment of the issue actually _know_ the details of what happened and how many are just forming a pitchfork mob anyway without proper information?

How is it possible to determine whether DC's response was adequate or not without knowing what happened?

AlexTWithBeard3• 7 years ago

Ok, so, if I understand correctly, the main issues are that:

1. The company didn't take the incident seriously enough, and

2. The company tried to cheat (put: noindex) in their response.

In order to agree (or disagree) with the first item it would be good to know was the incident serious enough to be taken seriously.

The second item probably deserves some slapping on the wrist. Boycotting the company though? Not sure.

save_ferris• 7 years ago

Who is dumb enough to add a noindex directive to an apology post after a hundred of your employees complain about one of the most-discussed problems in our society and think that no one will notice?

The bad behavior, or at least the tolerance of it, is coming from the very top of this organization, and to miscalculate on something like this signals incredible incompetence/complicity.

minimaxir5• 7 years ago

Apparently the noindex tag was removed on the 17th. That's...even worse?

Lowkeyloki• 7 years ago

I can't say I'm surprised. They're a bunch of data science people. Thinking about how to not let embarrassing things get indexed by scrapers is probably second nature to them in the same way that chaos engineering is second nature to plenty of programmers. I bet the question "should this be indexed" is the data scientist equivalent of "how could a malicious user exploit this".

narnianal• 7 years ago

One part that I would like to discuss is how people as individuals rarely would act badly in such situations, but companies almost always act that way.

Now I don't know the answer, but I believe this question is part of the core of the issue. In some ways companies are systems structured in a way that protect toxic individuals, and this protection is executed by normal people in their daily jobs. If you interview these people they might not feel guilty and might not even be able to tell how they participated in something immoral. And if they knew they wouldn't have participated. But it still happened. In fact you yourself might even participated in this protection scheme unknowingly in a job you did in the past.

What I'm not interested in is unconstructive blaming and flame wars between different sexist groups. Anybody interested in some serious discussion? I'll write my opinion on the matter if I have the feeling discussion is possible and enough people are interested.

0815test• 7 years ago

at an informal employee gathering at a bar ...

Why don't companies just get rid of these "informal" but sanctioned employee gatherings, particularly in a bar environment where intoxicating substances are likely being administered as well? That's just a magnet for these sorts of problems as are detailed in OP's blogpost. The workplace should be a temperate environment.

zaroth3• 7 years ago

It occurs to me that could be precisely the goal of these groups. It certainly adds a new element of risk to hosting any kind of event whatsoever when you can face such an organized PR campaign for something that may have happened between two people at your event.

belorn2• 7 years ago

I understand that alcohol culture can vary drastically in different nations, but I find it a very valid question to ask why drinking excessively should be part of any professional work environment.

The theory people have given me as validation for such event is that such social activity outside of work make people cooperate better and form some kind of kinship. Personally I would like to see some research if money invested in event at bars is worth it.

teddyh4• 7 years ago

It occurs to me that could be precisely the goal of these groups.

Far be it from me to discourage suspicions of ulterior motives, but I really don’t think so. Paraphrasing George Orwell, the object of outrage is outrage. The object of power is power.

mschuster91• 7 years ago

Because people are (mostly) of the socializing type. Even if you don't provide them by corp or ban using corp resources, people will socialize and that in many Western cultures involves copious amounts of alcohol.

wtdata• 7 years ago

"I think it’s likely that DataCamp management thought or hoped that their post was enough to placate instructors, and that they essentially did what we asked in the letter."

Perhaps I am misinterpreting this sentence. But, there was a complain, that complain pointed actions that needed to be made, DataCamp did all they were told to do, and yet, the complainers are not happy, DataCamp didn't do what they needed to do (although they did everything they were asked to do).

Now put that together with the fact that the text basically doesn't give any real detail about what happened, and it seems yet another post by someone that enjoys being outraged and let everyone know about it.

ivanbakel• 7 years ago

DataCamp did all they were told to do

There are three qualifiers on that in the original post.

and yet, the complainers are not happy

It's very possible to be unhappy with how someone does something that you ask them to do, if they do it poorly. The post then goes on to detail what exactly the author finds to be lacking in what DataCamp did.

the text basically doesn't give any real detail about what happened

What do you mean? It seems to explain what the company's response very clearly. If you mean it doesn't describe the contents of the initial allegation, that's not the topic of the post.

hjk054• 7 years ago

It sounds a lot like the mob has decided someone needs to get fired. Despite not knowing the specific details and despite a third party investigation concluding that reprimands and sensitivity training was sufficient.

I don’t know what “inappropriate contact” was, in this instance, but for all I know it could have been an executive doing a dance and twirling around a secretary. After which she reported that she didn’t like that.

Is that inappropriate? Yes. Should you get fired from your position because of it? No. You sit down as adults and talk it out. Of cause the mob could also be right and he might have jumped on a woman doing a lab dance and attempted to rape her. But I’d expect the third party investigation to make judgement on that which it seems they did, but he mob isn’t satisfied because the third party didn’t reach their foregone conclusion.

I wonder what the victim has to say? Has anything been shared? Or first party accounts on the incident? Or is all the coverage just vague indirect references to something no-one reporting was actually involved in?

minimaxir5• 7 years ago

Yes, the victim has spoken out.

https://twitter.com/kara_woo/status/1114229065509003264

hjk054• 7 years ago

I eventually figured that out, after going through 3 different blogs, the last of which states (without linking, so thanks for actually providing a link to her posts) that the victim came forwards... but still there isn’t anything from the victim about what occurred or even reflections on the current public proceedings, just a recognition of her being he victim and a thanks for support.

I feel like if she’s supporting the mob calling for a firering, couldn’t she at the very least say so? And why are all these separate people that are writing long blog posts about “the incident” all being so vague about the facts? If the victim Has come forwards why not just say so and link it? Why not ask the victim what she thinks should happen now, or what happened then?

I feel like every post i read raises more questions than they answer. And the general sentiment seems to be “the offenses we are vaugely referencing are so severe that you should support our case without knowing the facts” which just makes me suspucius of what the facts actually are.

pcstl8• 7 years ago

I constantly feel like American workplace culture is evolving very fast in order to avoid people ever having to sit down like adults and have potentially difficult and stressful talks.

(Of course, "sitting down and talking" might be impossible, depending on the severity of the incident - but how are we to know in this case?)

minimaxir5• 7 years ago

Other DataCamp employees did "sit down like adults" and talk about it.

https://dhavide.github.io/a-note-to-our-commuity-on-building...

http://third-bit.com/2019/04/15/an-exchange-with-datacamp.ht...

They got fired because of it.

AlexTWithBeard3• 7 years ago

So, does anybody know what happened there?

Did the "C level executive" just drunkenly hug an employee or he was dancing naked on a table dangling his carrot in front of the victim's face?

On DataCamp and sexual misconduct

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