HN user
You are just validating my point with that "per capita" narrative.
The point is simple: you want to pretend your are saving the planet by allowing China and India to increase their emissions, more than USA and EU will ever be able to cut them (even if they cut it to zero).
Explain how that can possible save the planet please.
My arguments are the facts.
Climate action, measuring exactly this, has China as doing "OK" and India as doing "great" when their comulative projected ”increase" by 2030 will be similar than all present emissions by USA and EU.
This is the ideology being pushed at the moment.
I know I will be downvoted for stating a fact but I agree with you.
The gist of the so called environmentalists is (factually, these really are their proposals when you look at their numbers): ok USA and EU, you have to urgently stop your emissions, even if that means total economic breakdown. China and specially India, it's ok you can continue your emissions, and increase then by even more than the all 1st world will cut theirs (even if they cut it to 0), that's just fine since your are entitled to it because you didn't do it in the past.
End result: a planet with even more emissions than today and a destroyed economy in the western world.
But somehow, this will save the planet according to people pushing this catastrophic scenario.
Sorry no, these people aren't pushing major climate action to save the planet, they are doing it because they think it's hip to push this idea that the Western way of life should be destroyed to give way to their political ideology.
I am also old enough to remember how the Ozone Layer would doom us all and that even if we stopped all CFC emission immediately, it would still take 4 centuries to recover.
Reality: Even with China still misbehaving about CFCs emissions, the Ozone Layer already recovered quite a bit and it's set to be fully healed by 2060.
But well, on the bright side, at least that time, ALL nations comited to stop using CFCs. This time, the idea is: stop all emissions in the western world, and allow Asia to keep increasing theirs.
And add the problem with plastics with the fact that this marketing stunt with pyramidal tea bags, occupies about 3x more volume and as such take 3x more resources to store and transport than traditional tea bags.
There is no going back about cleaning plastics by traditional methods now unfortunately.
The only real solution I see is if we bio-engineer some bacteria/microorganism capable of decomposing it and release it in the environment. It might be a danregous proposition, but (expect the even more advanced and potentially dangerous proposition of nanites) I can't see any other way of getting rid of all the plastic we already put into the environment even if we stop producing it.
Well, it's very good for still images, problem is, it doesn't work well on videos, since the way it works is not temporally consistent.
I don't like Trump, he is mostly wrong, but pretending absolutely everything he says is wrong, is a dangerous proposition.
I still think these wind farms are vastly positive, but we should recognize the problem with bird populations, and find clever ways to mitigate it, instead of putting the question aside just because "the bad orange men" said this was happening.
Well, my agenda is about reducing global CO2 emissions so that we can save the planet.
But, there is nothing wrong with you having your agenda... just don't go around pretending you are pushing it due to environmental concerns.
The poor in India should increase their emissions, because otherwise they'll die. Life expectancy has risen from 40 to 68 years since the 60s.
So, you are saying that CO2 emissions are actually good for the population and the way forward is to actually increase them even more. Interesting turn of events from an environmentalist.
You want them to die because of the choices their parents made.
Funny thing to say, since you want the West to pay for the choices our grandfathers made and descend into deprivation, so that the rest of the world can go on polluting even more.
Here is the thing, people with your discourse aren't interested in saving the planet but into forcing your ideological agenda - which is got nothing to do with environmentalism but with your personal concepts of morality - upon the rest of us under the threat of environmental catastrophe. And the worst part of it? It does nothing to tackle climate change.
P.S.: > If you excuse me, I'm going to go take a shower. I honestly can't believe I'm having this conversation on HN.
Go easy on that shower, it's a big toll on the environment and, after all, you just spent the last 24h telling us all how those resources actually should belong to be used by people in India and not selfishly by me or by you.
When is enough just enough? Do the costumers really care about reducing a further 1mm from the thickness of a laptop sacrificing: keyboard usability, battery life and number of ports?
They are doing what everyone else has done in the same circumstance.
We already established those aren't the same circumstances at all:
- 1st: we didn't have even 1/4 of the Indian population density when we were having the same birthrates.
- 2nd: When global warming became clear and urgent action was needed, we started reducing our emissions while India during that time already increased them by 400%, and is going to increase them by another 100% in the next decade.
It's not by keep repeating the same lie that you are going to make it a reality.
What do you mean?
It's not your racism that has you stating that someone in a country with a very good track record when it comes to CO2 emissions (and a number of other environmental aspects) should stop having children, so that someone in a overly populated country, with an appalling record when it comes to all kinds of pollution can have even more children?
If it's not racism from your part that makes you ask for that, than you should clarify what it is. But one thing is for certain, it's not environmentalism for sure.
I also had a hunch that you interest isn't really about saving the planet but in supporting the implementation of your ideological agenda.
I assume you're following through with your convictions and will remain child free?
No, I will remain with my child at replacement rate (a little below actually), like my parents and my grandparents did (and all parents and grandparents on average here), and I expect them to be entitled to a lot more resources than someone who lives in a country where (on average) their parents, grandparents and themselves didn't follow the same principle.
As a fact, India's CO2 emissions per unit area are almost the same as EU. We are using the same share of ecological resources (assuming roughly they are equivalent on average per area), so there is nothing to give or to take from both sides.
P.S.: A family in USA in the 60's, 1st: didn't had any idea that there was such thing as a catastrophic global warming incoming, 2nd: had a 4x smaller population density than India has today. But sure, go ahead and keep pretending that Earth's resources magically increase anytime someone decides to have a new child, so that you can tell yourself we are all entitles to the same amount of resources, no matter the size of our immediate family.
But if you are from a country that has high per-capita emissions (I'm assuming you are from one) then your country is much more responsible for the problem.
It's interesting that you expect someone in a country that has 1 brother and 2 children and 4x times more natural resources per capita (our population density is 1/4 of a India's), to enjoy the same level of life of someone in India that has 4 brothers and 3 children.
Now is my turn to say it: good luck with that.
Good luck stopping us.
It's so sad that you don't even realize that:
1. You are doming us all, you included.
2. India will actually be one of the first countries to deeply suffer from an increase in temperature.
Guess why that happened? Because of illiteracy due to poverty - because of your colonising ancestors.
Mugal empire reaps the territory for over 400 years, nobody bats an eye. British are there for 90 years... suddenly everything is their fault, even if India continues with their totally backward ways 70 years after the British left them to rule themselves as they see fit.
P.S.: I don't know why you continue to wave the anti USA flag. I have nothing to do with the USA (or UK for that matter). So sad.
We are already close to replacement levels
We are at those levels for almost 50 years now in "the west". Guess you are conveniently disregarding the mess you created over this last half century(and long before when the growth in India was 6 children per couple while in the USA it was 3).
Here is a novel idea for you: you use the resources available by your territory as you see fit as long as you don't destroy the rest of the planet for us. If you choose to do it with double your population or half your population, is solely your sovereign choice and we have nothing to say about it. The same way you shouldn't have anything to say about how we use our resources with our - in check - population where people - for a very long time now - mostly think twice about if they can actually support a child with the resources available (natural or economic) before having it.
All this does is to move business out of EU.
We are now worst that when we started: Still no right to privacy and now, loosing our companies.
What Earth does care about, is when you decide that's a good idea to have on average more than 4 children per couple over the last 2 generations in India [1] instead of only 2 or even less children per couple like in USA or the EU [2].
[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IND/india/fertility-ra...
[2] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/fert...
Every country has a set of natural resources at its disposal. It should manage and cherish those resources and not overtax them. If a country decides it's a good idea to perpetually grow their population when all they have are the same set of natural resources available, then well, the onus is on them to figure out how to do it without destroying everything.
Nature doesn't care about country borders.
You are right, what nature actually cares greatly, is about exponential population growth with no regard for future sustainability.
Maybe we should look at India's over-population before demanding other countries to sacrifice for India's (and many countries in South East Asia) shortsightedness.
Well, this might actually be very good for the environment. Like the environmentalist keep repeating, the expectation of eternal economic growth is having a big toll on the environment and India was set to almost double their (already quite hight) CO2 emissions by 2030.
This might actually be a blessing for the environment.
No, that's the consumers in emergent economies. In the 1st world things are working properly.
That's the all gist about meat consumption: let's look at all the problems meat production has in emergent and 3rd world countries and then tell people in the West they shouldn't eat meat.
The sentence is written in English, there is no Spanish language in the sentence to be erased.
Let's please stop with the vegan fallacy. Cutting all meat production (and it's support industries) in USA and EU together, would have an impact of the global emissions of only 1%. [1] [2]
The more we try to mix personal ideologies (i.e. animal rights) with climate change, the more we are going to make the public at large ignore everything about the theme.
P.S: If you are really after a personal action to fight climate change, take public transportation to work, or better go by bicycle. [3] That - unlike veganism, actually makes a huge difference.
EDIT: Added links with the actual facts supporting both points. USA Meat Industry and associated industries emits 3% of their country total.[1] Same for every highly developed country due to very high efficiency of the process. Transportation on the other side, accounts for 27% of the country total in USA. [3] USA and EU together account for 20% of the world total emissions [2]
[1] citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.182.3630&rep=rep1&type=pdf
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
[3] https://skepticalscience.com/animal-agriculture-meat-global-...
Are you trying to imply China's disregard for human rights is on the same level as USA and Japan?
India has 3x the population density of European Union. Surely the problem starts there.
This article start right away by lying using the disinformation machine that is setup about these mob outrage issues. Right away in the subtitle: "The controversial pioneer of free software resigned from MIT over his remarks on Jeffrey Epstein and Marvin Minsky."
"his remarks on Jeffrey Epstein" were none, zero, nada, zilch. Stallman addressed Minsky in his remarks. [1]
But sure, the pit is setup, let's burn the guy because it's the mob culture in which we live on at the present and well, it's a guy, a white guy, so he must deserve some kind of punishment, right?... Even if not for having said what almost everyone joining the outrage mob thinks he did say.
https://itsfoss.com/richard-stallman-controversy/?fbclid=IwA...
The most interesting part of this tweet, is that when faced with a situation that you have to decide if it was technical glitch or the Illuminati, people just go on and believe it was the Illuminati.
That article is an exaggeration that doesn't reflect the truth.
This article explains the real events factually (letting for you to decide what you think is right or wrong) and without hyperbole: https://itsfoss.com/richard-stallman-controversy/?fbclid=IwA...