Ask HN: Do you feel Apple products have become too expensive?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19635322

by d3ckard • 7 years ago

30 41 7 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I have been using primarily Apple equipment for the last 8 years. It is still my preferred hardware to work with. It was always on the premium side of things, but I still believe 999$ Macbook Air was the best offer on the market for a while.

Recently however, I feel like I do not get enough of Apple to warrant constantly and sharply rising prices, starting with iPhone breaking $1000 barrier.

How do you feel about it? Are you still getting enough bang for your buck?

scarface745• 7 years ago

There is nothing forcing you to buy a $1000 iPhone - there is always the $475 iPhone 7.

You also don’t have to buy an iMac Pro or a fully decked out MacBook Pro.

Apple has plenty of good mid priced hardware - except for the current unreliable keyboards on laptops.

endemic• 7 years ago

I think this is the way to go for the value-conscious Apple fan. It used to be that you could buy a base model and then upgrade it later. Since everything is soldered nowadays, buying used or previous-gen will get you pretty much the same computing experience for less money, especially since performance gains for each generation are diminishing.

simonh• 7 years ago

If you want bang for your buck, don't get the premium model iPhone.

It varies a lot. When I bought my 1st gen 27" 5K iMac it was cheaper than a premium 4K display (screen only) from some other manufacturers, that it out-performed just in terms of the display.

Timing with respect to the tech cycle makes a big difference. Apple hardware tends to maintain it's price point through it's life cycle more so than most, so if you buy shortly before a refresh you can certainly end up paying through the nose.

Then there's a synergy factor. Yes you can get a laptop with a comparable CPU and storage to an Air, but how good is the touchpad? Is the SSD as fast and on as good a bus? Does the display have as good a colour gamut and photographic fidelity? Is the keyboard – er – ok you got me on that one.

mchannon• 7 years ago

The Apple II cost $1298 (in 1977 dollars, $5444 today). That's with 4K of RAM. The 48K RAM drove the price up to $2638. Disk drives and monitor were extra.

The Apple Lisa cost $10000 (in 1983 dollars, $25522 today).

A 512K "Fat Mac" Macintosh cost $3200 (in 1984 dollars, $7829 today).

20 pounds, 9" 1-bit 512x342 display, no hard drive. I think that also didn't include the 400k floppy drive. And it would only work when plugged in.

Those were a good deal back then because of the quality of the games and the things they let you do that you couldn't do before.

Expectations change uniquely when it comes to computers.

lewisflude• 7 years ago

I personally am getting a tonne of value out of my Apple products.

My MacBook Pro is generally a total joy to use for work (development). Both the software and hardware are fantastic.

My iPhone goes everywhere with me, and does more than I could ever have dreamed it would when I was younger.

Objectively, there are more powerful, affordable pieces of hardware you can buy, but I really appreciate the small touches and attention to detail that are typical of Apple products.

I also appreciate that I'm in a very privileged position to be able to use Apple stuff. It does cost a lot, and if you're on a budget the prices can definitely feel frustrating.

jason_slack• 7 years ago

I still do. Since 1994 I have been Mac only and feeding my family. Some work situations I had to use Windows though.

I dropped my MacBook Pro going through airport security 2 years ago and it still runs perfectly just with some dents. I recently bought a 32gb model and love it.

The pain points now are the software instability and general lack of polish. Also I am beginning to feel like Apple just doesn’t care about use lowly folks who believed in them when they were close to being extinct. They say they care at every WWDC but I’m still waiting for them to show it. I finally upgraded to 10.14 last week and it bricked my machine and I have to do an internet restore which took 15 hours to get back to a point I could reinstall my apps and data. The reason? APFS issues when blasting back from a disk image I keep with my stuff installed and ready to go. The Genius Bar wanted to replace my touchbar citing that as the issue for a disk error.....

Overall I’m still hanging in there but I have started working my daily tasks on an old Linux laptop and I’m very happy. Time will tell.

benologist• 7 years ago

I feel like they provided excellent value on my 2013 MBP, but if it broke I wouldn't buy any of their machines.

The way they have handled their keyboard design problem, bent iPads, too-short display cables etc is simply deceitful and unethical, that makes me less interested in dealing with them. I don't want to argue about hardware flaw repairs again and again over the life of a machine while it periodically disappears for a couple weeks until Apple finds legal justification to stop free keyboard repairs.

But mostly it seems like the Mac has come to a grinding halt. Four years to do a CPU bump on the Mini, two years for a CPU bump on the iMac, five years and counting for the Mac Pro. Rumor has it they maybe can show a prototype in a few months of the 2014 Mac Pro in anticipation of a 2020ish release lol.

We'll never know for sure, but they probably invest more on evading taxes than continued Mac development.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-jersey....

supradu• 7 years ago

Absolutely not. Apple is junk. I bought my first Mac more than 10 years ago and this year I changed to Linux.

I cannot believe I was into this company and their draconian practices all over the world. Why anyone would work for this company is a mystery to me. The sooner they die the better and this will happen..

writepub• 7 years ago

No - not getting enough bang for the buck at all.

- Price for similar spec PCs is almost 0.5X. 10 years back, one could argue that Macs offered better build quality and reliability, but not in 2019!

- Apple's slow creep into everything I do on my Mac and iPhone is unacceptable. Macs have been secure enough without the recently announced intention from Apple to prevent non-signed apps from running, in upcoming Mac OS releases. No sirre Bob, this is not about security, but greed from Apple to control execution of apps on a computer that I legally wholly own!

- Mac OS quality is consistently declining. From the password bug a year ago, to a string of software issues with High Sierra, it feels like Apple has let it's good down on software.

So no - it's rather buy a premium PC with much better specs and build quality, and run Linux on it, or even Windows 10 with WSL.

scarface745• 7 years ago

Price for similar spec PCs is almost 0.5X. 10 years back, one could argue that Macs offered better build quality and reliability, but not in 2019!

My next purchase will probably be a 5K iMac. Since LG seems to be the only reputable company selling a 5K monitor, I would be looking at $1200 for a monitor by itself. A $1799 5K iMac is s good deal.

I doubt that you would even find a PC equivalent of a MacBook Air for half the cost. Cheaper yes, but not half.

There was nothing more “secure” about the Mac than Windows except that no one bothered to write malware for it.

torstenvl• 7 years ago

Apple's prices have been increasing while their quality has been decreasing, and both are happening at a rapid pace.

Root password bugs, data loss in APFS, goto fail, etc.... these are all unacceptable issues.

I recently upgraded my iPhone, but I'm going to start thinking about alternatives and planning toward decreasing reliance on the ecosystem.

clay_the_ripper• 7 years ago

I still get a lot of value from Apple. For me the biggest plus is the longevity of their products. Or at least it used to be! I have a maxed out mid 2015 MBP 15” that’s going strong and a sturdy iPhone 7 Plus. I am concerned about he longevity of new iPhones (glass backs?) and of course the well documented issues with the new mbp.

Overall, for the quality of the hardware, ease of use and quality support I have always gotten from Apple, I am a customer for life. I value ease of use and design above everything, so I would never switch to windows, Linux or android (cue the hate but you must admit, if nothing else Apple products are damn easy to use. If I have to spend 1 extra hour configuring something, or do anything cusom whatsoever that is unacceptable to me)

mostlysimilar• 7 years ago

Apple products and services mostly fit my needs and I'm willing to pay the price for that.

Things I value:

- Physically beautiful products with high build quality (2016+ MacBook keyboards notwithstanding), including the best displays and trackpads

- A business model oriented heavily around privacy and security

- iOS: the app ecosystem is second to none in terms of quality

- macOS: built on UNIX with a stable, aesthetically pleasing, and functional desktop environment

That said, where it makes sense I choose other products. Spotify is lightyears ahead of Apple Music and I spend accordingly.

I occasionally scope the landscape for alternatives and never come up with anything substantial. I absolutely don't want an Android phone, and any switching away from a MacBook would involve taking on a lot more friction in my day to day. I enjoy the occasional tryst with GNU/Linux but I don't want it to be my main driver, even if I could get a proper display and trackpad. Windows is entirely out of the question.

askafriend2• 7 years ago

I share your thoughts right down to the point about physically beautiful and carefully considered products. For example - I don't care how good a Razer mouse is, I would hate to stare at that aesthetic all day. It would really get to me.

With Apple Watch and AirPods to round out the ecosystem, they've really got me captivated. It's hard to consider anything else because it's almost always the case that everything just doesn't work as well together.

achenatx• 7 years ago

I dont like the apple ecosystem. I dont like the iphone and I do think it is overpriced. My wife uses the iphone X/apple watch/mac book air. Apple hardware lasts a long time. We still have original ipod minis, iphone gen 1, ipad gen 2 in service as docked mp3 players, picture frames, etc.

I find the case on iphones to be too slippery, requiring you to cover it with another case. My android phone does not need a case and the phone wasnt that expensive so if I drop it, it isnt a big deal.

I find very annoying things like text messages to my wifes phone showing up on all apple devices. turning off the feature hasn't helped.

Apple periodically makes me reauthenticate to icloud on my macbook. However I have no other apple device so it sends the codes to my wife's phone. very annoying.

I used the first iphone but switched to android for my next phone because the iphone lacked T9 search which android had/has. The iphone still doesnt have T9 dialing. It matches letters/numbers in any portion of the name. This is helpful when I cant remember someones first or last name. It is also helpful when I have lots of people with the same name, but I know a portion of their actual #. It never takes me more than 3 taps to dial.

The iphone didnt have the capability to override calendar notifications. I use an app on android that lets me snooze reminders until an arbitrary number of minutes before the event (for me it is 2 minutes before). I started missing meetings constantly because of the lack of this function when I had an iphone.

Until recently the iphone didnt have the ability to take phone+conference bridge numbers and autodial the whole thing

I despise itunes. Something is always breaking causing me to lose music, to have to rebuy music, to reinstall the entire library from backup etc.

Getting pictures off the iphone is a nightmare. On android, you mount it as a drive and copy the images.

I do use a macbook as macosx has a *nix lineage.

NicoJuicy• 7 years ago

I have had the iPod and iPhone 3GS. iPod had a harddrive firmware problem, never got the warranty. Loved it though

iPhone water issues because of a person and a swimming pool :p

Never wanted anything of Apple since then because I was afraid all prices would rise too much and I think it did, for all "premium" products. I saw people buying it who can hardly afford it.

But since a long time, I think they don't give the bang for the buck also ( 2016).

I kept Windows and used Android. Touchbar, non-standard cables, Apple licenced accessories, ... None of that is worth it to me.

Phone = calling, sms, email and surfing ( some).

Tablet = x360 ( convertible laptop), a regular tablet is just for consuming. Not for producing

Development = Windows with Linux subsystem and Visual Studio.

I thought about an Apple mini as build controller, but didn't want to support it.

scarface745• 7 years ago

Never wanted anything of Apple since then because I was afraid all prices would rise too much and I think it did, for all "premium" products. I saw people buying it who can hardly afford it.

The first iPhone was $499. The iPhone 7 while three generations old, is still faster than all but the highest end Android phones and will probably 3 or 4 more years - $475

The original iPad was $499. The newest regular 9.7” iPad is $329

When I bought an “entry level” Mac LCII it was $2100 back in 1992 with the monitor. The lowest cost iMac that anyone should buy is $1699 - 21.5” iMac with 256Gb SSD and 16GB RAM.

The base level MacBook Air for $1199 is a perfectly good laptop.

Apple has never been the lowcost leader.

IdiocyInAction• 7 years ago

The phones? Definitely. I am not using my phone for more than internet surfing, reading the occasional PDF and messaging. Why would I pay 1000€ for a phone then.

The laptops: I could imagine buying one in the future. Linux has its warts and I am very accustomed to developing on Unix these days. But the current line seems to have problems and the touch bar would have to go.

Yhippa• 7 years ago

For whatever reason the companies I've worked for have footed the bills to buy MBP's. The last one that I think had the best value were the 2015 MBP's. The ones with the Touchbar do not give me enough value for the price (I would have paid).

marssaxman• 7 years ago

I was a devoted Macintosh user from 1985 onward, but it's been six or seven years since I last bought an Apple product. Apple seems to have become increasingly particular about the kind of experience they want you to have when you use their equipment, and it doesn't appeal to me; it's pretty, to be sure, but it's too paternalistic. I'd rather be left alone to do things the way I feel like doing them.

The MacBook Pro I use at work is nice enough, though I feel more of an eye-rolling irritation with its high-tech touch bar, paper-thin keyboard, and USB-C-only design than the sense of futuristic delight Apple must have been hoping for. I cannot see anything about it which comes close to justifying its $2800 price tag, and I would never consider buying one for myself.

Hardware performance outran my day-to-day needs a long time ago, so I am perfectly content with a $300-$400 second-hand laptop and a $250 phone. I have learned to take a sort of contrarian delight in the humble, rugged utilitarianism of a ThinkPad, and I recently got a phone with a QWERTY keyboard, because I'm tired of typing on glass and fighting with autocorrect. It's probably a good thing for the world that Apple keeps pushing the frontier of design forward, but I don't need to be along for that ride myself.

james_in_the_uk• 7 years ago

I became a bit addicted to buying independent apps on MacOS. A little bit on iOS too.

Little bits of shareware here and there.

With, of course, an annual upgrade cycle.

When I looked at why I was buying them, I realised it was more and more to merely replace Apple services with those that are more open.

I now use Windows and Android. Win 10 has a minimalist vibe to its UI that's a welcome relief from Apple's over-designed UX. A legacy of Apple's skeuomorphic approach which I always disliked.

I now have a very limited number of apps which I pay for. 5 I think. Compared to about 25 on Mac.

Otherwise I use freeware and open source. Yes the quality of these apps is not always so high. But they do the job, and I spend less time and money managing and upgrading them.

I'd prefer to use Linux of course, but am limited by some key apps such as DXO. Windows does the job.

The hardware is slightly cheaper but TCO is much cheaper for me.

Significantly, I do not use my personal machines for work. YMMV.

ohiovr• 7 years ago

It is getting cheaper for me since I don't need anything more fancy than an iPhone 6.

0_gravitas• 7 years ago

Louis Rossman has 100% guaranteed that I will never purchase an apple product in my life

IOT_Apprentice• 7 years ago

My MacBook Air (mid 2012) is still running strong, only had to do a battery replacement from macsales.com. I have a macmini for plex use, a first edition iPad Pro 12.9 and an iPhone X. And a powered off 2007 MacPro.

I skipped the upgrade to 2018 iPhone as the X was fast enough and did not see a difference in the new model.

The new macbook Air finally gives Retina, but I'm leary of the keyboard.

I truly dislike the gluing of batteries in the laptops and the soldering of ram and ssd's in their laptops as well. And Apple's ram pricing is highway robbery. I'm not sure what I will due when the Macbook Air ssd dies and I have to decide what personal laptop to buy.

The 2015 iPad Pro is a beast and was a great investment. After all this time, I have zero usage of the original Apple Pencil, which surprised me. The only disappointment is the failure around the keyboard/cover and the side connector which now complains about it, even if I switch one out. Beyond that, I think the Pro will maintain value for a long time from a performance standpoint.

Windows 10 (which I use at work) has, at a general level achieved parity with the Finder and window management. Browsers/Office 365/apps are much the same. Trackpads on windows machines suck (both Dell and HP Zbook).

I dislike the plastic feel of the windows laptops and their trackpads, but their cost for RAM and drive space is much cheaper than Apple. The cost differential for macos machines is out of alignment with the market. For now I don't have to worry, but when I do have to replace it is the purchase cost and hard lock-in on RAM and SSD size that are concerning.

what-the-grump2• 7 years ago

I got a pixel 3 last year, iPhone user since the 3gs. I dont miss my iPhone. The first month was tough, now when I have to use an iPhone or touch one, I feel lost and like I am holding a clunky toy.

Oh yeah, I got the pixel because there is no way I'm paying $1000 for a phone.

scarface745• 7 years ago

So if you go to Apple’s websites right now, there are 5 phones that cost less than a $1000.

what-the-grump2• 7 years ago

And what about 6 months ago? I bought two of the latest flagship phones from google at the maximum size for $1200 with one trade in.

I dont see myself using an iPhone in future unless its a company phone that I don't purchase.

What I really like and feature I was not expecting at all, texting from my PC, really nice to able to do that.

cimmanom• 7 years ago

Apple's operating systems and hardware used to be rock solid, and absolutely worth the premium.

I still like their operating systems better than the alternatives; but not sure the bar is all that high. They're increasingly buggy; new "features" are either zero use or detrimental to my workflows; and I find myself hanging on as much due to ecosystem lock-in as due to any particular desire to stick with Apple. (That said, I don't particularly want to deal with the privacy and security tightrope of using Android.)

Their hardware has totally gone down the drain. If I had the skillset to put the guts of a maxed out 2019 15" MBP into the chassis of my 2013 model (maybe with some extra room for more battery?), I'd do it in a heartbeat. If they sold that computer (or better, a 13" equivalent), money would be no object.

But literally everything external about the current model is a downgrade -- and I don't mean in some sort of consumer-y "it's not as pretty" way. I mean every single thing about the interface is worse. The touchpad was perfect; now it's too big. The keyboard was great; now it's fragile and barely usable. There used to be a function key row; now we have that touchbar bullshit. We used to have all the ports you could need, and a magsafe connector (with an extension cord!); now there's just a USB-C port or two and ALL THE DONGLES.

If I could buy a 4" iPhone with this year's CPU and RAM and camera specs and a goddamned headphone jack, I'd seriously consider it even at the enormous prices they're charging for the X. As it is, all the current phones are unusable to me, and I'll probably next end up with either a flip phone plus MP3 player or some weirdo thing off Kickstarter.

andrei_says_• 7 years ago

This year I purchased a maxed out 2015 MacBook Pro with MagSafe 2 and all the ports. Absolutely love it and will be sending it to Rossman for repair if anything happens to it.

Apple removing MagSafe and the ports is just bonkers. I write code so I’d never use a touch bar. Replacing the ports with dongles surely helps them make a cheaper board but is shitty experience for everyone else. Making intentional efforts to reduce repairability from 1 to zero on a ten point scale is also hostile.

Love the OS and the attitude toward privacy but everything else sucks.

Have been running a Hackintosh for photo and video work for two years and while it’s stuck on an old macOS it still works and has plenty of power.

Don’t see myself touching any of the new laptops. May look into a Mac mini with external graphics but it’s so overpriced that buying it feels humiliating and exploitative.

Isamu• 7 years ago

I do agree with the sub- $1000 Macbook Air, I bought a couple of those. In particular I don't know why it was not more popular among consumers that don't need the flagship models. I think consumers must be programmed to buy the model with the most features.

I don't think that's a fair comparison with iPhone, since you are comparing the least expensive of a line with the most expensive. There are plenty of iPhone models to choose from, and they haven't abandoned the lower-cost tiers.

Check out the history of iPhone cost tiers here, they have only significantly expanded the upper end over time.

https://twitter.com/asymco/status/1040240778860146688?lang=e...

paulrpotts• 7 years ago

I've been using Macs since 1985 and programming them, too. I work with Windows and Linux as well, but Macs have often been my "daily driver" - my first was an SE, I had a PowerBook Duo, and then a Titanium PowerBook G4, and then a 2008 Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is still my "main" computer - four hard drives, rotating on-site and off-site backups.

I used that machine for my photo library, for a big archival photo project with Aperture, for music recording with an Apogee Ensemble interface, for podcast production, for video production, to manage all my e-mail, to record and mix multi-track audio with Logic. I use a lot of command-line tools (via Homebrew, or compiling from sources).

From my perspective Snow Leopard was the high point of reliability and functionality. I liked the concept of my computer with multiple monitors as a media hub.

The way Apple has taken features away from successive versions of iMovie, and killed Aperture, and turned MacOS X increasingly into a walled garden, has been a huge turnoff for me. I have an old iPad and it's useful for watching videos and chatting on Twitter but I don't want or need iOS devices to _replace_ general-purpose computers. I didn't buy the cylinder Mac Pro because - call me crazy and old - I still want drive bays. I don't want to move all my work to a laptop (and as a guy who writes a LOT - hundreds of thousands of words a month - keyboard quality is pretty important to me). And I've never been interested in an iPhone.

I don't have any interest in keeping all my documents in the "cloud" (psssttt -- the cloud is just other people's computers!) And I want my own DRM-free media to live on my own computer's drives such that no one can shut down a service or discontinue support and take it away from me. I don't want to "subscribe" to apps, but that's another story.

Basically I'm no longer Apple's target audience, and it's frustrating. It's not really about cost for me, per se. It's about Apple's declining interest in the whole notion of general-purpose computers as open and unrestricted tools for creative people and allowing them to own and store their own files. I'm curious for the promised next-generation Mac Pro but I'm not too hopeful.

wilsonnb3• 7 years ago

I’ve spent probably close to $4k on Apple products over the past two years. Before that, my last Apple products were an iPhone 3GS and a 3rd generation iPod nano.

The main draws for me, in no particular order:

- iPad apps are way better than Android tablet apps

- There are more high quality apps for iOS in general

- I use 100% Microsoft products at work at the moment so having the MacBook at home helps me keep a few toes in the Unix world

- the integration between iPhone, iPad, Mac, and Watch is way better than the competition

All in all, I think the apple products were worth the premium to me.

They weren’t THAT much more expensive than flagship Samsung smartphones and high end laptops anyways.

I’d be happy living the windows and android life too, though. People give it a lot of shit (especially on the internet) but modern OS’s are all pretty good.

luxpir2• 7 years ago

Ignore this comment - unauthorised access to HN account by 12-month old hacker. Have apprehended and reprimanded said miscreant.

aiyodev• 7 years ago

You have to calculate the cost/time. If you do, Apple products are a steal.

I once saw someone complain about the price of a MacBook Air on Reddit and, based on how long they used their current one, determined they were spending less for it than a Netflix subscription.

telesilla• 7 years ago

I'm looking at upgrading to a newer Macbook Pro from my 2012 which is starting to feel slow particularly for GPU tasks. What is the best model that's been released in the last 4 years? I was looking at the 2015 but it's practically the same as my 2012 (4-core i7). Is the 8-core i9 actually going to work? I've read it's useless because of the heat issue:

https://www.leafandcore.com/2018/07/21/apples-new-i9-macbook...

askafriend2• 7 years ago

People have been complaining about the price of Apple products since the beginning of the company. This is nothing new. Every year, it's the same boring set of complaints and chief among them is price.

Apple creates premium, often uncompromising products. That's not to say they're perfect...not by a long shot...but it's never really been about the low end market for them. They've always approached it top down sparing no expense and doing their best as a business to convince the consumer market that it's worth paying more than the alternative. I think most would agree that they've been succeeding for a long time. At it's core, Apple is a design company - you're paying for more than the components, you're paying for the philosophy. And people resonate with it.

The proof is right in the earnings reports.

throw03172019• 7 years ago

I still love iOS and macOS but I cringe when ever they add gimmicky features that do nothing but bloat the software.

I haven’t looked at the new MacBooks the same ever since I was FORCED to buy a MBP with a useless TouchBar if I want the updated hardware specs.

jakobegger• 7 years ago

If you use a Mac as a professional, they are not overpriced. New Macs easily last 5 years [1], and 2500€ for a professional tool is not a lot of money considering how much you pay the person using it.

If you just want a Mac for personal use, then you have to decide if its worth it. A top of the line MBP with touch bar is probably a bit excessive if you use it just to edit your vacation photos. But on the other hand lots of people spend 30k€ on a nice car even though a 10k€ hatchback would also get them to work.

My mom just got a used mid 2017 MBA with decent specs (I don't recall the exact configuration) for around 600€. It'll easily last her the next 5 years, and probably even longer than that. So there still are affordable options if you don't insist on getting the latest model.

[1]: The new MBP keyboard might be an exception to that rule, so if you're worried about that, maybe wait for a successor to the butterfly keyboard before buying a new Mac laptop.

samfisher83• 7 years ago

They have always been expensive. I don't think that has really changed.

Ask HN: Do you feel Apple products have become too expensive?

Related Stories