Why your desk job is slowly killing you

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39523298/ns/health-mens_health/

by rdamico • 16 years ago

150 115 16 years ago

msnbc.msn.com

andre• 16 years ago

Even if you exercise, the more hours a day you sit, the greater your risk of early death

joshfinnie• 16 years ago

Here is a link to Men's Health's 10 Standards to Access Your Fitness Level.

http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/printer.php

It was linked in the article. It is very interesting, even if you workout some of these might be hard to obtain.

rdamico2• 16 years ago

Seems pretty sensationalist to me. HN, please help debunk :)

dasil003• 16 years ago

There's real research here with counterintuitive results that deserve honest attention. Given the amount of brainpower here and the typical hacker lifestyle, I'd say the risk of unwarranted rationalization is very high.

TheSOB88• 16 years ago

I believe it, at least the general conclusion that sitting at a desk for 40 hours a week, plus sitting in your car for another 5-10, probably ain't that good for your health. It ain't what your body was designed to do.

rubashov3• 16 years ago

> It ain't what your body was designed to do.

The physical activity levels of hunter-gatherers is actually pretty low, day-to-day. They spend a lot of days sitting around.

jimbokun• 16 years ago

A fair amount of walking around and standing around, too, I would think. Certainly compared to the modern desk worker.

Do you disagree?

kiba3• 16 years ago

The Modern Healthy Lifestyle Checklist is growing.

1. Barefoot running. (check for me)

2. Paleolithic diet. (nope)

3. Stand while hacking not siting. (nope)

#3 is easy to implement, just put the chair in the other room. #1 is already done. #2 is hard to do because I don't make the choice to shop for X food plus potato chips are tasty.

klochner2• 16 years ago

regarding #2, diet fads come and go every decade or so. imho the jury is still out.

jpr• 16 years ago

So what's your advice for the time being? Keep on shoving cheeseburgers to our pieholes?

rue3• 16 years ago

It also turned out that the actual paleo people did eat carbs: http://www.boingboing.net/2010/10/19/paleolithic-diet-inc.ht...

Of course, even if they had not, it does not mean that the paleo diet is somehow automatically better: the only conclusion that can be made is that it is an adequate diet to sustain a person.

Evgeny3• 16 years ago

Well, this particular "fad" has been around for a couple million years or more ... compare that with "eat whole grains" fad for example ...

tgriesser2• 16 years ago

I bet using something like a treadmill desk would help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPjN07JyVjo&feature=playe...

They say it works in the video for doing things like e-mail and phone calls... maybe it would work for things that require more concentration...I wonder if anyone has had experience doing something like this while writing code.

Looks like a neat idea either way.

kiba3• 16 years ago

Standing on your feet is an effective solution. Exercise is not necessary to effect health change.

Even so, I find treadmill extremely annoying. I wouldn't use it for work.

I run in the real world, and do it seriously.

tgriesser2• 16 years ago

Are there any problems with standing in a stationary position for prolonged periods with no movement?

I would think that this might not be good for you either, though I could be wrong.

rsheridan6• 16 years ago

I used to use a treadmill at about 3 mph while studying. I think you could code while walking at low speeds.

adammichaelc• 16 years ago

I wonder if this would have a negative impact on productivity. From what I understand, while you're exercising your brain is actually not operating at its optimal capacity. It is only after exercise that you get the beneficial effects.

If you think about it from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes some sense. No use in thinking deeply while hunting; while hunting you just need to stay alive and kill your prey. But when you sit down to rest after a long day of hunting your brain is ready to think through more complex things (planning, etc.)

I'm reading Spark right now and I'm pretty sure I read about the above in that book, but I can't find a source. If there's a neuroscientist on HN who is up-to-date with the literature, it'd be cool to hear your viewpoint on this.

zumbojo2• 16 years ago

The founders of Instructables seem to have a reasonably good treadmill desk + code setup (though I personally couldn't tolerate his monitor configuration).

http://www.instructables.com/id/Treadmill-Desk/

Mod_daniel• 16 years ago

I read this and went to craigslist just to see if it was as cheap as they said. in chicago, there dozens of treadmills posted in the last 3 days and easily ten or so at or less than $100.

834574• 16 years ago

Anyone have a recommendation for an adjustable stand for monitor, keyboard and mouse that can sit low on a normal desk but raise up 1-2 feet use while standing? I'm not having any luck finding such a product.

klochner2• 16 years ago

buy a stool that lets you sit at the same height as standing, then just raise your desk.

834574• 16 years ago

I actually do that at home with my laptop on the backside of a kitchen bar area but at work would rather have a setup that fits in with the current furniture arrangements. If I can't buy such an adjustable desktop surface I guess I'll put an adjustable computer stand in a corner.

khafra3• 16 years ago

There are a few options if you want to change the height of the entire desk, but I don't know of any for just the monitor, keyboard, and mouse.

834574• 16 years ago

I'm at a sort of double cubical setup with one wall in front of me and someone on the other side. I think the only setup that could work would be a flat surface that is only an inch high when at lowest point but has folded legs that can hold the surface at various heights when it is lifted.

hopeless• 16 years ago

See the Ergotron Workfit http://ergotron.com/ though I've gone for a cheap standing desk fixed at standing height and a stool for the occasional rest. Unfortunately this is at home so I still spend most of the day sitting :-(

solson• 16 years ago

Full disclosure... I work for Ergotron. But Workfit - S is exactly what you are describing and one of the most affordable on the market.

http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-US/def...

dmix• 16 years ago

The navigation on your site covers the content when you hover over them, then it doesn't go away when you move your mouse from the nav.

The only way to make it go is to hover over "Home".

This is bad usability.

834574• 16 years ago

solson, That is exactly what I'm looking for. Had my fingers crossed (as always) for a lower price, though I'm sure it is well worth it. I looked around for an animation of the system and then noticed your videos which are hilarious. Thanks

http://ergotron.com/tabid/649/language/en-US/default.aspx

http://ergotron.com/tabid/553/language/en-US/default.aspx

b3b0p• 16 years ago

Looks nice. I love the price, but I don't want to have to mount my monitor for a few reasons.

I've been contemplating a geekdesk for ages, but at ~$800... I can't bring myself to do it. I'm a little nomadic, live in a 1 bedroom, and not sure how it will fit in a Mini Cooper or smaller SUV trunk.

nitrogen• 16 years ago

You could set up two desks, one at sitting height and one at standing height. You'd have two mice, keyboards, and monitors. Use an HDMI splitter/amplifier to duplicate the video (or just hook two monitors up to one video card in clone mode).

istari• 16 years ago

Yes, I have a recommendation.

Get 10 packets of 8.5 X 14 printer paper. (8.5 X 11 works too, but not as well)

Make a tower for your keyboard. Make another tower for your mouse. Tilt your monitor back by putting something underneath it.

Adjust the height by adding or removing packets.

I have no idea why people don't do this immediately when they're considering a standing desk. Everything you need is in the printer room of your office!

mechanical_fish3• 16 years ago

+1 for hacking, the secret to good ergonomics.

Having said that, there are several reasons to throw a few dollars at the problem:

Tilting your monitor up is, itself, lousy ergonomics. My monitor is already balanced on a tower of books to get it to proper height when I'm sitting; another 18 inches and it will be like playing Jenga with my company's LCD.

Your first days as a standee will necessarily be the hardest. The feature where you can swap from seated to standing and back in five seconds with one hand will never be handier than in the first month. And if you skimp on this feature you'll be in danger of giving yourself a bad experience, needlessly.

rahim• 16 years ago

Here a photo of my improvised standing desk setup from a few months ago: http://twitpic.com/1kkmj7/full

I've since upgraded to boxes.

rdamico2• 16 years ago

Anyone have success reducing the number of hours sitting down while still hacking just about all day/every day?

jcromartie• 16 years ago

You can set up a stand-up desk arrangement. You will look like a weirdo if you try this in a cube farm, though (I am speaking from experience).

It's better to have something that adjusts easily (like a counter-balanced monitor arm and keyboard tray).

Ooh... like this! http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-US/def...

andrewjshults• 16 years ago

In an open office configuration it's pretty nice. I have a "standing" desk at Dogpatch NYC (it's really just the standard Ikea desk all the way up + a printer box for my laptop) and beyond the general standing benefits (more mobility, less back pain, etc.) it's also nice to look up and not be staring at a screen and actually see what people are up to (which is mostly staring a screens).

The main downside I've seen is that greater mobility makes the kitchen (which is only 15 feet away) way to easy to get to. I think I've replaced the extra calories I burn with more snacks.

reedlaw2• 16 years ago

I have been working at a treadmill desk for around two months now. In the past two weeks I have walked over 60 miles at my desk. Usually I sit for only an hour or two during my work hours. I find walking while working very productive.

toast762• 16 years ago

I work from home, and have recently (month or so ago) set up a standing desk. I'm in here 7 days a week. It's actually great because I can walk in and out at night to check emails etc without having to sit down.

My desk is an old coffee table top sitting on my keyboard stand (as in musical keyboard). I also have a stool for when the feet get sore, but I try not to use it too much.

pyre5• 16 years ago

I imagine a lot of people will weigh in on standing desks, but what about just kneeling at a desk? Would that be better than sitting in a chair? What about working while in some sort of yoga position?

rubashov3• 16 years ago

The standing desk thing is silly. Just stroll around the block every few hours.

mechanical_fish3• 16 years ago

I get paid for typing. Strolling, not so much.

I don't mean to suggest that walking and thinking is useless. It's quite productive, actually. But theoretical hacking will only get you so far. Sooner or later you have to type things, and read the results, and read the manuals and blogs that explain the results, and I can't really do much of that while strolling around the block.

scotch_drinker5• 16 years ago

Several people have mentioned the Workfit which looks intriguing but I've also thought about getting a GeekDesk. Anyone have experience with either or both?

http://www.geekdesk.com/

jfb• 16 years ago

We all have GeekDesks at work, and love them. I usually switch from sitting to standing once or twice a day (less so recently because I did my knee playing hoops), and it's a nice change. I got into the habit at Apple because I had a bad back and standing really relieved the discomfort; I'm thinking of getting a WorkFit for the house (because space is constrained.)

audionerd• 16 years ago

I recently saw a comparative review of budget standing desk options, and I wish I would have bookmarked it. It was from someone who had evaluated a ton of them, put them up as his own personal opinion.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

niels_olson10• 16 years ago

Doc, here. I don't think the article is sensationalist at all. Here's a quick list of basic steps I recommend

* standing desk: I love mine. 2x6 legs, 2x4 connecters, $50 at Home Depot, and 4 hours of work -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/niels_olson/5097452401/lightbox...

* live close enough to work to walk or ride. Ride to the train or ferry if necessary. (I ride 17 miles, take a train, then another 4 miles)

* Move to Southern California. I'm not kidding.

* Strength:

50 low crunches, 5n pushups, m half-down pullups

50 side crunches, 5(n-1) pushups, m-2 half-down pullups

50 crunches, 5(n-2) pushups, m-4 half-down pullups

50 opposite side crunches, 5(n-3) pushups, m-6 half-down pullups

50 crunches

Vary n and m to ability

* Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.

Michael Pollan, Unhappy Meals (Food, Inc; King Corn, and Omnivore's Dilemma condensed into one essay) --http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t....

Join the Slow Food movement: http://www.slowfood.com/about_us/eng/manifesto.lasso

Four books I'd like to see in every kitchen:

* Deborah Madison, Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone (number one among vegetarians, but also the vegetable cookbook everyone should have) -- http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Cooking-Everyone-Deborah-Ma...

* Mark Bittman, Fish (If you can't cook fish after this, kill yourself) -- http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Complete-Guide-Buying-Cooking/dp/...

* Harold McGee, On Food and Cooking (unrivaled, in depth, the go-to resource for food hackers) -- http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-Kitchen/dp/0...

* Julia Child, Mastering the Art of French Cooking (the original food hacker) -- http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Art-French-Cooking-Vol/dp/03...

hyperbovine• 16 years ago

But, have you factored in the decreased life expectancy associated with biking 17 miles a day on the streets of Southern California? :-) Here in the Bay Area, we have bike lanes, and drivers that actually stop for you.

Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone, AKA the Big Orange Book, is fantastic. The mushroom risotto recipe is to die for.

niels_olson10• 16 years ago

Having biked North, South, and Middle San Diego for years, we have bike lanes, drivers that stop, and fewer days of cool weather than SF :-). In fact, having been to SF, I don't recall as many bike lanes there as here in SD. I suppose we'd have to measure to really know.

jamesteow• 16 years ago

What do you recommend for people with weak joints? I can't stand for long periods of time as my ankle gets really sore. I've done some exercises at the gym to work on balance.

niels_olson10• 16 years ago

I recommend you get evaluated by a physician if you are concerned about your physical ability to stand for prolonged periods. Seriously. I don't know if you've had ankle surgery, Gaucher's disease, or something else. In general, standing, though, is great strength training for those joints.

chipsy• 16 years ago

Try isometric holds to build up the joints. I've had a lot of success with them. The key reference on the subject: http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Hoffman/ic-adv/ic-ad...

Why would isometrics work better than range-of-movement(using weights and cardio) in this case? When doing static exercises you are simply pushing until you're stopped by your weakest link, while in range-of-movement, momentum from other muscles can help you cheat on the weak areas, so that even though you expose many angles of contraction, not all of them are always fully contracted. Hence you can end up with spots of underdevelopment.

I'm pretty sure static holds also help to counteract the sitting problem, since flexing has a very relaxing effect on stiff muscles - it would follow that flexing them as much as possible is an even better idea!

trafficlight2• 16 years ago

Any recommendations on a chair for a standing desk?

jnorthrop• 16 years ago

I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not, but I have a chair at my stand-up desk. It is a cheap chair for a drafting table (it sits high). I stand about 70-80% of the time and use the chair for the rest.

Edit: Like this one http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/181-7379211-8663135?asi...

niels_olson10• 16 years ago

I recommend against a chair :-)

pyre5• 16 years ago

  > * Move to Southern California. I'm not kidding.

I don't think that SoCal has the space to fit the entire world (or even the nation). I would normally just assume this is tongue-in-cheek, but you said that you weren't kidding.

niels_olson10• 16 years ago

Fair enough. Someplace with a similar climate: sunny and comfortable year-round.

evanrmurphy• 16 years ago

The list is really helpful. Thanks for sharing it.

If someone was unable to get a standing desk, do you think kneeling at a normal desk might be better than sitting all the time?

britta• 16 years ago

Try kneeling for more than a short time - your knees will probably hate you. But you can still take short regular breaks to get up from your desk, change your position, make sure your setup is as ergonomically correct as possible, etc.

jonhendry• 16 years ago

I tried one of those kneeling chairs once. I found that my weight on my knees pressed the cushion fabric and the fabric of my pants into my skin uncomfortably.

Maybe you could get a bar, like this one for $229:

http://www.amazon.com/Coaster-Home-Black-Chrome-Accents/dp/B...

Work on it, or use it as a bar when you have company over. Throw some casters on the bottom, and you can easily move it around.

nerfhammer• 16 years ago

Not New York? No cars, you know.

brown9-22• 16 years ago

Can you describe "half-down pullups"? Do you just mean pulling yourself up from a half-hanging position, rather than hanging completely from the bar before beginning the pullup?

niels_olson10• 16 years ago

Either half, though I usually do the top halfs, which works the smaller muscle groups that you really want to build. If you watch people struggling for that last pullup, they usually fail in the top half. The point is that a single pull-up is a tremendous amount of work through a large range of motion, so reps are tough to come by. Doing halves lets you get more reps. 16 half-ups is better than 6 full-ups.

khafra3• 16 years ago

Good list!

Potential errata: crunches may damage your spine[1], fish may be full of heavy metals and corexit.

[1] http://www.prevention.com/hurtyourbackhabits/list/5.shtml http://www.rainbowskill.com/health-secrets/best-exercises-fo...

[2] http://faculty.virginia.edu/metals/cases/nelson2.html

anthuswilliams• 16 years ago

The researchers are comparing the time we spend walking against the time spent walking by a bunch of theme park actors they hired? How absurd.

No doubt there were people in history who moved about more than we do. There were also people who moved far less than we do, on account of being snowed in all winter, or chained to a Lowell sewing machine. And I think our diet is on average, better than theirs was. I don't claim to know the causes of the increase in heart disease, but I know specious pop sociology when I see it.

mechanical_fish3• 16 years ago

Until very recently being snowed in all winter meant constantly feeding a fire with wood or coal. Splitting wood or carrying coal is a lot more work than typing.

Meanwhile, I don't think you can assert that sewing at the professional level is approximately as sedentary as keyboard work without data. The cloth doesn't cut itself. It doesn't load itself. You are constantly moving your hands and arms. Until the advent of electrical controls the machines had to be clutched and unclutched by hand, even if the actual power came from a central belt drive system. And so on.

evolvingstuff• 16 years ago

A factor I would like to see controlled for would be the serum vitamin D levels of the subjects. I'm guessing that at least some of these findings could simply be the result of spending more time indoors.

mrbogle• 16 years ago

How many of you can do all this (linked from OP http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/index.php?cm_mmc=MS...)?

* Bench 1.5 Times Your Body Weight

* Run 1.5 Miles in 10 Minutes

* Touch the Rim

* Leg-Press 2.25 Times Your Weight

* Swim 700 Yards in 12 Minutes

* Do 40 Pushups

* Measure Up

* Run 300 Yards Sub 1 Minute

* Touch Your Toes

* Toss a Basketball 75 Feet Kneeling

A couple are pretty intense. I lift 3 days a week, climb, and do cardio 1-2 times a week. I cannot bench 285 (1.5x bw; my 5 RM @ 235), or squat 425 (2.25 bw; 5 RM @ 275). Also not sure about the swimming.

potatolicious2• 16 years ago

As a former swimmer, 700 yards in 12 minutes is 2.33 lengths per min, or 25 seconds a length sustained for 28 lengths.

That's pretty aggressive for anyone who doesn't swim very often. Even a relatively fit person who doesn't swim all the time would have trouble hitting that.

Even at my peak I could probably only pull 18s/length, and definitely can't sustain it for 28 lengths.

wazoox• 16 years ago

On the other hand, 40 pushups are quite easy, 1.5 miles in 10 minutes really ordinary for the average runner, and 300 yards in 1 minute doable too. Go figure. Could it be complete baloney? :)

zumbojo2• 16 years ago

Companies that have vast numbers of adjustable desks (e.g. Fog Creek [1]): How many developers use them in standing mode vs. sitting mode? Do many pick a mode and stick with it forever, or do they change it up throughout the day? And how many who are normally sedentary switch for a few days following a story like this on HN (or the hailstorm of similar stories on Lifehacker not too long ago)? :-P

Selfishly, my question can be boiled down to "build a standing desk or splurge on a GeekDesk?", but I am genuinely interested in how people use them long term.

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMVeHFrgOpE

sliverstorm4• 16 years ago

Things like this make me question the wisdom in the career choice I am about to leap into headlong.

akgerber2• 16 years ago

Bike to work.

I'm fresh out of college, at my first desk job. I'm in the best shape of my life. A commute is an exercise routine that you're not about to skip.

sliverstorm4• 16 years ago

The studies I've been reading indicate anything more than 3 hours of sitting begins to impact your life expectancy.

I have no concerns as far as fitness goes, I'm very confident I'll be able to keep myself healthy in that respect.

sliverstorm4• 16 years ago

So this debunks the idea that sporadic gym excercise making up a small portion of your week is not enough to keep you healthy.

But what about intense, all-day excursions on the weekends? The kind that keep your heart rate up all day long and leave you limp and beaten?

brown9-22• 16 years ago

debunks the idea that sporadic gym excercise making up a small portion of your week is not enough to keep you healthy

Did you mean to include that "not" in there?

aufreak3• 16 years ago

Isn't there some factor such as posture being left out here? What about monks who meditate in sitting position for very long stretches?

konad• 16 years ago

In the US, 14 people a day die in the workplace.

towelrod• 16 years ago

I find it very hard to take this article seriously, since there are constant interruption with things like "Work your entire body in 15 minutes with these three moves for fast muscle" and "Tied to the treadmill? Try these seven ways to burn more fat on the belt".

It reminds me very much of an old SNL skit with Jerry Seinfeld about "news-at-11" style reporting. I can't find a better link than this one:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/99/99anewswatch.phtml

But the whole thing is filled with quotes like "Connor, it's no bark and all bite for golden retrievers and other so-called family dogs. What's causing these sweet and furry creatures to viciously attack sleeping toddlers? Stay, and we'll tell you in a minute.".

gregwebs• 16 years ago

Correlation is not causality. It seems that all these studies are simply observing correlations.

Some of the things in this article are just wrong. For example that sitting will cause "bad" forward pelvic tilt. Sitting generally eliminates forward pelvic tilt- which is the real problem. Forward pelvic tilt (sticking the but out) is the posture all humans used until recently in Western civilization.

Also, the idea that sitting will make you fatter because you aren't burning calories is fairly silly. In that case, an hour at the gym would be able to make up for all your sitting. At any rate, most people's appetites/metabolism will simply adjust (read Good Calorie, Bad Calorie for an overview of the obesity evidence).

All this being said, as a personal theory I consider sitting in a chair to be harmful. Any time civilization does something like this it usually has bad consequences. Sitting in chairs could be the number one thing we do that ruins our flexibility. Humans are supposed to be able to squat with their butt on the floor.

Standing while working is a fine alternative (and a treadmill desk would seem even better). However, other postures are going to be required to start re-gaining natural flexibility. I am experimenting now with different postures- squatting, sitting on the ground, and standing with a bent back. It is possible to work at a computer while doing all of these.

mayutana2• 16 years ago

What about sitting on an exercise ball? Have read quite a few articles in HN about the benefit of doing so.

mayutana2• 16 years ago

In the context of this study, does riding a bicycle in the normal seated position count as sitting?

Why your desk job is slowly killing you

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