Bing.com now runs on .NET Core

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2018/08/20/bing-com-runs-on-net-core-2-1/

by sebazzz • 8 years ago

375 153 8 years ago

blogs.msdn.microsoft.com

icey• 8 years ago

Wow, they got an eye-popping performance improvement from this change.

Analemma_2• 8 years ago

I get the feeling that there has been a lot of low-hanging optimization fruit in .NET that went unaddressed because a) the original compiler was too complicated to change and b) there was no pressure to improve it because it only ran on Windows and there were no real competitors.

a) was addressed by Roslyn, which is apparently much more manageable, and now that .NET is supposed to run everywhere, it has to have competitive performance. Hence the big gains.

christophilus• 8 years ago

I think there's also c) .NET Core is OSS, and has had a lot of contributions from the community for things that MS themselves didn't prioritize.

cpeterso• 8 years ago

For example, .NET doesn't do escape analysis, though I've read this is less of an issue for .NET than Java because .NET has struct value types instead of everything being a heap-allocated object.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16225696

matthewwarren2• 8 years ago

Just a small thing, the Roslyn compiler (or any C# compiler) does very few optimisations, see https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/ericlippert/2009/06/11/what... for some details.

Almost all of the 'compiler' optimisations are done by the JIT at run-time when it converts the IL code into machine/assembly code

neilsimp1• 8 years ago

It is, but I wonder what they're measuring on Y-axis. I just says `(actual values omitted)`.

pmalynin• 8 years ago

Its latency

sandyarmstrong• 8 years ago

It says "The Y axis is the latency (actual values omitted)". I, too, wish they had shared the actual values, though.

Groxx• 8 years ago

Seems like it's also offset (e.g. Y starts above zero).

... the final precipitous drop (on June 2) is the deployment of .NET Core 2.1! That is a 34% improvement ...

If so, that graph seems to be deliberately misleading.

davidgl2• 8 years ago

They've added the concept of immutable views into managed or unmanaged data, aka Spans. This allows huge reduction in allocations in the framework: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/mt814808.aspx

daxfohl3• 8 years ago

I wonder if it's running on windows or linux. And whether they're using ASP.NET core or rolled their own framework.

Bhilai• 8 years ago

HTTP Response header say the server is running IIS 10.0 so its most likely Windows Server 2016.

daxfohl3• 8 years ago

Interesting, I thought kestrel was supposed to be way faster than IIS. Wonder why they stuck with IIS after going through all this.

dahauns• 8 years ago

Not neccessarily. IIS could also serve as a reverse proxy/load balancer, with a Kestrel installation behind it. (If I'm not mistaken the response header is only set in static resource responses.)

daxfohl3• 8 years ago

They say views use razor, so in all likelihood it's asp.net core.

jenscow2• 8 years ago

"... we started an effort to make the code portable across .NET implementations, rather than relying on libraries only available on Windows"

It looks like they're planning to move off Windows - or, at least giving themselves the option to.

pestkranker2• 8 years ago

Are there resources that describes Bing web stack/infrastructure? Something à la http://highscalability.com/.

paulborza• 8 years ago

Most of the stack is custom.

yawgmoth• 8 years ago

https://github.com/dotnet-architecture/eShopOnContainers

While it's not Bing, this is the canonical example I have seen in response to a lot of "What is at least a very good way to do x in .NET Core?"

mjsabby6• 8 years ago

Bing is huge both in codesize and technologies used, but most of it is a flavor of Windows Server 2016 (soon 2019) + http.sys + C# + Razor + TypeScript for Frontend. C#/C++ for middle and lower tiers.

kuwze• 8 years ago

I thought this was a really good post[0] on the networking performance potential of .NET.

[0] https://dzone.com/articles/how-raygun-increased-throughput-b...

kjeetgill• 8 years ago

Sort of? It's interesting work but I don't know if I'd frame it as "networking performance potential of .NET".

The title is "How Raygun Increased Throughput by 2,000% With .NET Core (Over Node.js)". From the article:

In terms of EC2, we utilized c3.large nodes for both the Node.js deployment and then for the .NET Core deployment. Both sit as backends behind an NGINX instance and are managed using scaling groups in EC2 sitting behind a standard AWS load balancer (ELB).

They're comparing their Node.js vs C# versions behind ELB and NGINX. It's barely touching the networking part of the stack directly. They gains are almost definitely all from a stronger compiler story and a concurrency story.

They say themselves:

Node is a productive environment and has a huge ecosystem around it, but frankly, it hasn’t been designed for performance.

ericcholis• 8 years ago

I like the fact that they are highlighting the individual Pull Requests. It's a good reminder that .NET Core is indeed open to community changes.

Someone1234• 8 years ago

Indeed. But it is worth noting that most of those individual pull requests were from Microsoft employees.

It is still awesome that the community can comment, and Microsoft does take community changes regularly for .Net Core, VS Code, etc.

matthewwarren2• 8 years ago

I tried to figure some actual numbers related to this, see http://mattwarren.org/2017/12/19/Open-Source-.Net-3-years-la... for a write-up

tracker1• 8 years ago

Definitely interesting... I think this speaks mostly to having a direct compile option for .Net Core that works well more so than the platform as a whole.

Personally, my first past at most things these days would be with Node.js simply because of productivity, but it's nice to see more options for performance growth as needed.

some_account• 8 years ago

". NET is applying an update, please return to Bing after reboot"

paulcarroty• 8 years ago

Bing is completely mess as a search engine. I tried it 3 or 4 times and every-time the context of results was long away from desired.

I heard Bing good for porn, it's probably the one strong side, LOL.

magnat• 8 years ago

That is a 34% improvement

That graph is completely misleading then. I can understand why they don't want to show actual y-axis values, but at least put relative values on that axis. Even "60%" and "100%" would do.

mjsabby6• 8 years ago

Thanks for the suggestion, I've modified the graphic.

stanislavb• 8 years ago

It's still misleading unless you look for the specific numbers...

kevindqc2• 8 years ago

The first commit says "Vectorization of string.Equals". It now uses SpanHelpers.SequenceEqual. How is that vectorized when it's just an unrolled loop from what I see? Does vectorization not mean using SIMD instructions? It also means improving data dependencies?

https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/blob/48cb3fa29a63219a9669a...

wolf550e• 8 years ago

Maybe there is an autovectorizer in the compiler that recognizes the shape of that loop and uses SSE to do it 16 bytes at a time instead of 8 at a time?

Kirth• 8 years ago

The CLR/runtime to optimizes that code into SIMD instructions, if the hardware allows for it.

benaadams10• 8 years ago

char ref (managed pointer) is cast to byte ref https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/blob/04d9b557ef8b7c60a1194...

Then it uses SpanHelpers.SequenceEqual for byte which is vectorized

https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/blob/04d9b557ef8b7c60a1194...

Arnavion• 8 years ago

char is cast to byte

To be clear, char is not cast to byte (which would truncate). A char ref (ie a char pointer) is cast to a byte ref (ie a byte pointer).

kevindqc2• 8 years ago

Oh thanks! Was looking at the wrong SequenceEqual

dasanman• 8 years ago

I know nobody who uses Bing to be honest. Am I wrong in thinking this?

swaggyBoatswain• 8 years ago

I use bing all the time for TV shows, its way better than google in this regard

bovermyer2• 8 years ago

Anecdotal, but I alternate between Bing and Google, with a general preference for Google.

usermac• 8 years ago

I've gotten two free meals using Bing rewards.

cbHXBY1D• 8 years ago

DuckDuckGo, Alexa, and Cortana use it.

It gets about 21% of the search market.

foepys• 8 years ago

Windows 10 is using it in the start menu. Every time somebody types something into it, Bing gets a request for autocomplete.

rb808• 8 years ago

I use bing all the time. The results are good enough and I get points for amazon vouchers. "image searches" ahem work great too.

Saoshyant• 8 years ago

Ah, yes, I too use Bing to search for images of a specific nature with some frequency. It's quite likely the best search engine available for the... higher arts.

I do not know if they have done it on purpose, but kudos to the Bing team either way.

trumped• 8 years ago

If you know anyone that use https://duckduckgo.com/ or https://www.searx.me/, then you know some people who use Bing (at least indirectly). Also, some people use Bing (directly) to find porn, apparently...

Mountain_Skies• 8 years ago

I use duckduckgo which is bing with a skin and added features. One of those features is "bang commands" which allows you to use a single site to search thousands of other sites individually. If I want to check if my local Home Depot has the particular deck screws I need, adding !homedepot to my duckduckgo query redirects me to Home Depot's search results page. This is very useful as web sites become heavier and heavier which results in a terrible experience just getting to a search box. Ditto Amazon and most other ecommerce sites. Plus it is nice if I don't get the results I am looking for on duckduckgo to just add !g to the query and get redirected to Google's results.

merb4• 8 years ago

Somehow I actually fell in love with .NET Core 2.0. While their naming is still confusing and it's hard to know what will come next. I found myself amazingly productive with Razor Pages. It's really cool if you don't need an SPA and you could do everything pretty damn fast. It's like WebForms, but without the Microsoft specifics and instead relies on the good old html5 part to make an app great.

sreyaNotfilc• 8 years ago

I was talking with a friend yesterday. He got a position as a manager for a group of Java/Oracle devs. We started talking about how being a manager wasn't all its cracked up to be. We are coders and we are really good at what we do.

What makes coding more "fun" is the .NET framework. It had its headaches, but its a really nice and polished framework for getting things up and running. Especially with web building. .NET 4+, C#, and Core are Microsoft's message to the development world that they hear us.

Here's hoping they continue with this trend.

Yhippa• 8 years ago

That is one thing I always admired about .NET from afar: there was generally one fairly polished framework that you could reasonably trust. In Javaland I feel like I sometimes I have to second-guess everything to make sure I'm using the "best" implementation of something.

That and C# is an ISO standard which is pretty cool.

jmartrican• 8 years ago

As a non-apologetic Java-fanboy I can attest to "I have to second-guess everything to make sure I'm using the "best" implementation of something." This is true. The Spring Boot libraries helps to alleviate that a bit.

elboru2• 8 years ago

I'm a C# developer who has been learning React for the past year, and it really is an exhaustive job to look for the right JS library for every case, this is my process:

1. Facing a code task.

2. Asking myself, should I reinvent the wheel or should I look for a library?

3. Google for libraries solving the task, open at least 5 npm/github tabs.

4. For every tab, I should make sure the library is not too big for my needs/popular/still being maintained/not too many open issues. -Closing the tabs that didn't pass this step.

5. Taking a look at documentation/examples to determine if it can solve my problem. -Closing the tabs that didn't pass this step.

6. Testing the library and see if I can make it work.

7. Implement it in my project.

It's a really different environment, and it has its advantages, it's just that Microsoft has spoiled me a little with their out of the box implementations.

sjellis• 8 years ago

That and C# is an ISO standard which is pretty cool.

Microsoft publish older versions of C# through ECMA, but that documentation is always behind the implementations (which are all now owned by Microsoft). The latest ECMA document is for version 5.0 of C#.

yarovoy• 8 years ago

For years it was not really true. You need DI framework? Study all benchmarks and comparisons for 10 most common DI frameworks. Need ORM? Welcome to the NHibernate vs Entity Framework debate. Logging? Here you go with another 10 choices.

hkai• 8 years ago

How would you compare .NET core and the JavaScript ecosystem (node + frontend frameworks)?

jenscow2• 8 years ago

.NET's ecosystem is somewhat lacking compared to Javascript. This is what I love about node.

On the other hand, the standard library that .NET provides is superior.

From my experience, it's possible to deploy a .NET site with just a hand-full of 3rd party dependencies (if any).

he0001• 8 years ago

I found myself amazingly productive with Razor Pages

I'm curious, compared to what?

pestkranker2• 8 years ago

Plain old MVC.

merb4• 8 years ago

actually I'm a java guy or to say it differently, a scala guy and i mostly use mvc to create my normal web stuff. however with razor pages I'm so much faster to do stuff. because it's a little bit simpler to setup. Your model is actually just "code behind" and you could still have a good structure. and as a bonus, razor view engine is like twirl (scala project) minus some quirks. also you can still easily add typescript, etc. Or even make a SPA with the WebApi and SpaServices (heck I even use the Webpack Middleware). It's just amazing how integrated .Net Core 2 feels. And the easy stuff is already integrated into the Framework, like Authentication/Authorization. I've never had a secure cookie authentication running that quickly.

actually when I looked at .net core 1.0 I basically already tought it is abadonware, because of the new build system, because i wasn't a huge fan of c# and lot's of stuff just didn't worked, but since we needed to migrate our old WebForms application I somehow tought that before rewriting everything, it might be a good idea to look into it and it somehow clicked. c# is really moving fast and the recent additions even makes myself as a scala programmer feel more at home.

bpicolo4• 8 years ago

If you want to build an SPA, their boilerplate[0] for it is also excellent and supports several (angular, react, react-redux... unfortunately they deprecated Vue support [1] because it was great, but that's easy to bootstrap from react starter) and they even support server-side prerendering with a sidecar

[0] https://github.com/aspnet/JavaScriptServices [1]: https://github.com/aspnet/Announcements/issues/289

wokwokwok3• 8 years ago

Its also like php^; whip stuff up quickly and easily, but keep your eye on the ball, or you get hit in the face by spaghetti code.

There's certainly something to be said for an easy way to get running quickly, when you can't be bothered with an SPA.

...but it doesn't scale. :)

(^ the comparison is more apt than you might imagine; razor pages are the 'one file per logical page' model for asp .net core, and very very reminiscent of webforms, and all the legacy that carries).

wokwokwok3• 8 years ago

(... and don't even get me started on razor components, where every UI interaction (ie. every single browser event) involves a full round trip to the sevrer to rerender the component state, due in .net core 3.0.

I'm just saying: Microsoft have done some excellent work with .net core and kestrel but that doesn't mean every idea they have is a good one)

merb4• 8 years ago

you can write spaghetti with every language in every framework.

btw. razor pages doesn't mean that you need to write spaghetti code. I've seen tons of MVC code where the view layer got way too much code.

most of the time it will help if people actually only put the bare minimum of code into the view layer. (only if/for/etc where absolute necessary)

bonestamp2• 8 years ago

When I heard they bought github, my first thought was that I hope they enable this on github pages. Dynamic github pages would be amazing and it would attract a lot of new developers to Razor Pages.

zaarn• 8 years ago

After a year-long pause in .NET development I got back into it recently and I can only agree. As a Linux dev, .NET core is an amazing product and it's incredibly productive compared to JS, Go or Java.

I'm also fairly exited for Blazor so I can write fullstack C#.

sevensor2• 8 years ago

Not a .NET developer, so apologies for the dumb question, but why did MS release a second open source .NET implementation around the same time as they acquired Xamarin? Do .NET core and Mono compete with one another? Do they serve complementary roles? Why would I choose one over the other?

dep_b• 8 years ago

.Net core replaces Mono.

nbevans• 8 years ago

Not according to Miguel it doesn't.

mythz• 8 years ago

.NET Core is superior than Mono for Server Software like ASP.NET Web Apps but Mono is more suitable for embedded environments like iOS/Android/PlayStation/Xbox,etc and is also what's used in Microsoft's new Blazor project for running C# Apps in Web Assembly (https://github.com/aspnet/Blazor).

sremani• 8 years ago

From what I remember reading a post or listening to podcast is .net core is "server-centric" and mono is "client-centric" also relative "foot-print" in size.

mrblah• 8 years ago

My understanding is that Mono is being billed as a client framework (Monogame, Xamarin, Unity, Blazor) while Core is more for the server/systems target. To add to the confusion, ".Net Standard" is a library compilation target that should work everywhere (even the legacy Windows-only .Net Framework). Interestingly, the newly MIT-licensed Xenko game engine compiles to .Net Standard libraries which is how it supports so many platforms (via barebones launcher/shim projects for whichever framework implementation is desired). Edited for clarity, thx.

benaadams10• 8 years ago

.Net Standard is what you build libraries against; its the abstract contract of the runtime.

Then .NET Framework, .NET Core, Mono, Unity, etc runtimes then implement that contract so a library built against .Net Standard will work on any of the runtimes.

headmelted2• 8 years ago

I'll take a stab at this.

.NET Core and Mono are not exactly analagous. A better comparison historically would have been Mono to .NET Framework (i.e. classic .NET).

.NET Framework is a fairly expansive set of standard libraries bundled with a runtime - it's commonly used and well-supported, and dates back to about 2001, give-or-take a beta or two. There's a lot of current and legacy applications built on this out in the wild.

.NET core is effectively a do-over for the longer term in the form of a minimal set of dependencies that imports more of the standard library separately. There's a couple of reasons for doing this - primarily the parts that have been abstracted out mean that .NET core runs in a lot more places than the classic framework (including natively on devices like the Raspberry Pi, for example), and can also be (and is) fully open-source (the classic framework is mostly open-source these days as it is, but licensing problems meant that not every part of the toolchain could be opened up).

There's also the question of expectations when it comes to community changes. .NET Framework was adopted in many quarters on the basis that it was developed by Microsoft directly, and bureaucratically opening it up to community changes after the fact becomes problematic due to the massive number of stakeholders and their expectations.

I'm sure someone else can add more info but as I understand it this is the gist.

sevensor2• 8 years ago

Thank you, that helps!

scarface742• 8 years ago

Just to confuse things even more, there is also .Net Standard. (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2016/09/26/introduci...).

.Net Framework (Windows only), .Net Core and Xamarin are all implementations of .Net Standard.

To add even more confusion, ASP.Net Core can run either on .Net Core or .Net Framework.

mandeepj2• 8 years ago

You can't do disruptive changes with the baggage of current stack.

System.web itself is over 2 mb and you don't need everything from it, all the time. Cross platform was another feature which was hard to do w\o starting over

benaadams10• 8 years ago

For server on Windows, Linux and MacOS you'd probably sway .NET Core.

For client on Windows, UWP is .NET Core, and WinForms or WPF currently .NET Framework. Though .NET Core 3.0 is meant to bring the full set of Windows UI stacks to .NET Core https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2018/08/08/are-your-...

For Tizen you'd also use .NET Core

For client on macOS or Linux you use Mono

For games you'd probably use Unity (Mono based)

For iOS, tvOS, watchOS, Solaris, Android, Solaris, IBM AIX and i, BSD (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD), PlayStation 4, XboxOne, WebAssembly you'd use Mono

Can still use Mono for client on Windows and the ASP.NET Core stack is quite happy running on Mono on the server; but they have different focuses.

If you were building a library you'd target the .NET Standard 2.0 "contract" and it would cover all the runtimes.

colemickens• 8 years ago

Hm, curious - why do you say wasm and XboxOne would lean toward mono? Doesn't Blazor target .NET Core? I would've assumed .NET Core w/ UWP would be first class citizens on XboxOne? Thanks in advance!

Edit: maybe I was confused about Blazor. Looks like it can work with ASP.NET Core, but the info I'm finding talks about building with mono.

I guess the more interesting question is, do you think Mono will remain important for the places you've mentioned, or will be replaced more and more by .NET Core? Especially given the UI goals with .NET Core 3 (and my own biased belief that .NET Core is the clear unabashed future of .NET).

Const-me• 8 years ago

For client on macOS or Linux you use Mono

I’ve been using .NET Core 2.0 and now 2.1 on embedded ARM Linux. Works surprisingly well.

mandeepj2• 8 years ago

This is a really great question, in fact. Normally, people go with what's available. Without connecting the dots.

manigandham2• 8 years ago

.NET Framework was first, the major install on Windows only. Mono came after, to try and replicate .NET on non-Windows and with an open-source approach. Eventually .NET Framework code was open-sourced (at least read only in the beginning), which also helped Mono get better.

.NET Core was created to take the aging .NET Framework and rebuild for a faster, easier deployment, quick release cycle, and cross-platform on Linux and Mac OS; without hurting the decades of backwards compatibility.

Mono meanwhile became the base for Xamarin for mobile apps and Unity as a gaming engine. Even though Microsoft acquired Xamarin, Mono already had much uptake in both of these scenarios that it didn't make sense to attempt replacing it, so now we have Mono for mobile+games and .NET Core for the rest.

.NET Framework will still be around for a decade but is effectively retired and .NET Core 3.0 will fill in any remaining gaps for Windows apps that still need the full framework today.

polskibus3• 8 years ago

It would be great if they compare running bing on Linux vs Windows! Is there a hidden gem somewhere?

mjsabby6• 8 years ago

Barring any bugs, the hope is that the code generated on Windows and Linux for the same architecture will be very similar, modulo calling conventions and ABI.

Then you come down to issues like Linux networking vs. Windows networking, Disk I/O differences which are interesting but from a .NET perspective less so in my opinion.

polskibus3• 8 years ago

It is very interesting to know if running .net core on Linux gives you better performance than on Windows. If you don't get any perf. penalty then moving to Linux saves you a lot in Windows Server licenses! And if Linux is faster then there is really no reason to stay with Windows Server anymore.

wpdev_63• 8 years ago

They should have renamed .net to something else. Now we have to deal with the same issues as the python 2/3 but maybe even worst as it's harder to tell which apis are available looking at sample code.

yread• 8 years ago

just switch to. net core. "* core" is pretty googlable

h4b4n3r04• 8 years ago

Bing folks, are you running this on Linux? Common problem a few years ago was that perf of the Linux version of Core sucked compared to Windows. The only way to fix that is through serious dogfooding. I’m wondering to what extent Microsoft is committed to such dogfood on Linux.

benaadams10• 8 years ago

Techempower Benchmarks all run on Linux and they are quite focused on the performance of them https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=test&runid=9...

7+ million requests per second on linux for a single server (maxing out a 10GBps network) isn't to shabby ;)

Also they run continuous benchmarks for all platforms in a wider range of tests https://github.com/aspnet/Benchmarks

With the results being public at https://aka.ms/aspnet/benchmarks

h4b4n3r04• 8 years ago

Narrow benchmarks aren't interesting. Use in large scale production, however, more or less guarantees stuff will eventually work well.

mjsabby6• 8 years ago

Windows Server 2016. All the improvements in the post that helped us are the same on Linux. I will agree though there's more dogfooding to be done. It's happening slowly but surely.

h4b4n3r04• 8 years ago

> It's happening slowly but surely.

Exciting to hear. .NET is truly a diamond in the rough on the Linux side, its only major problem seems to be catch-22 in the sense that few people use it there, so the ecosystem is slow to come in.

martinald4• 8 years ago

I'm a huge fan of C# and ASP.net, but this transition hasn't went as smoothly as I hoped.

I tried .NET core a lot pre-1.0 and it seemed really fragile (especially on Mac and Linux, which was my main excitement around it).

As I was a bit nervous about that, I started a new project in 'classic' .NET w/ MVC5. It however seems a lot of projects are migrating rapidly to .NET Core and leaving support for legacy projects recently.

It does seem to be a giant pain to migrate a legacy asp.net app to asp.net core (very manual). Anyone have any tools/advice on this process?

sebazzz• 8 years ago

.NET core has several compatibility packages you can use.

However, once you have Web Forms in your project there is no way forward but to rewrite the Web Forms pages.

martinald4• 8 years ago

Any links? I don't use webforms, just MVC5 with razor pages.

swalsh• 8 years ago

I was an early adopter of .net core. It definitely had its quirks in the beginning. Recently I gave it another go, it's really improved a lot. Like it's production ready now. I'd say pick it up again.

martinald4• 8 years ago

Yeah, I'll definitely use it from day 1 for new greenfield projects, but quite a lot of concepts have changed to make migration trivial.

snarfy• 8 years ago

I remember all of the KRE, KVM, project.json, etc. It was pretty rough, and that's from someone that's been using .net daily since the 1.0 beta many years ago.

They've fixed all of that stuff.

DenisM2• 8 years ago

Why even bother? Mvc5 still works well, and will continue working well for the years to come. Is there a pressing need to migrate?

I’ve decided to wait it out.

martinald4• 8 years ago

Some packages are getting EoLed - eg Auth0 have discontinued their System.Web implementation in favour of .NET core.

If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be worried at all...

scruffyherder• 8 years ago

Donno. I've recently moved stuff to Visual C++ 1.10 with the NT 3.5 SDK and it's been amazingly fast building stuff.

Who needs "features" anyway?

euroclydon• 8 years ago

It's stabile now. Just forget the alphas and 1.X ever existed. If you really want to get a hang of it, don't use Visual Studio. user VS Code, and the CLI tools:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/?tabs=net...

c487bd62• 8 years ago

Visual Studio is a must for 99% of .net jobs, right? I see a lot of praise and comments that it's so good you can't replace it

Do you think they will drop VS and adopt VS Code as the recommended solution? Since it's locked to Windows, bloated and there's no 64 bits version

thejosh• 8 years ago

Rider makes .NET Core amazing on Linux. Well worth the price.

markmark• 8 years ago

Porting to 1.0 was a pretty big headache, there was a lot of stuff in full .NET that wasn't in 1.0, and a lot of open source libs hadn't been ported yet.

In 2.0 they had a bit of a rethink about how stripped down Core was going to be and added a heap of stuff in, plus a lot more (most?) big open source libs have been ported. So porting legacy apps is much easier.

However I don't see any point porting a legacy app unless there is something in core you want. Perhaps you'd like to move your app over to running on Linux servers? At my previous company we ported parts of our product so that we could sell cross-platform support without needing our users to install mono.

da_chicken• 8 years ago

Porting to 1.0 was a pretty big headache, there was a lot of stuff in full .NET that wasn't in 1.0

Yeah, this.

For example, originally they weren't going to include SqlDBAdapter or DataTables or any related classes. They really just thought everybody was going to be okay with using Entity Framework for everything and not having a generic, non-ORM database interface.

Most of my coding involves either extremely simple tables or where I want to manipulate tables for third-party applications that have over a thousand tables where I don't have access to the source code. Most of it is ETL or ETL-like. It's also usually in PowerShell or Python, but some of it is in C#. Making an EF would take ages for some of these applications, especially when the schema isn't always relationally sound (but it's third party so I can't change it). It still just blows my mind they they thought it'd be okay to make everybody box and unbox their database into classed objects instead of just letting you manipulate it as a DataRow. As far as I know, they still consider DataTable and the like to be "legacy".

funwie• 8 years ago

.Net Framework is windows only

Mono is open source port of .Net Framework to non-windows platforms (linux, mac os)

.Net Core is cross platform (like Java but without GUI features for now)

.Net Standard for libraries shared by all 3 above.

markbnj• 8 years ago

Years ago I spent a lot of time trying to convince some of our large bank customers that we could run their stuff on Windows NT instead of SunOS or AUX or whatever by noting that microsoft.com ran on NT. I'm not even sure if it was actually true at the time, now that I think about it.

Bing.com now runs on .NET Core

Related Stories