Judges sentence youth offenders to chess, with promising results

http://theconversation.com/judges-sentence-youth-offenders-to-chess-with-promising-results-96172

by okket • 8 years ago

174 79 8 years ago

omeid24• 8 years ago

Slightly off topic but I would like to mention that if you play chess online, the best one is lichess.org. It is free and opensource: https://github.com/ornicar/lila.

I am unaffiliated but really like lichess.

c12• 8 years ago

Quite serendipitously you reminded me that lichess.org exists. Thank you for that.

fernandopj• 8 years ago

They are indeed a great example of an OSS success. Their website is great, apps run smoothly, great community and a very active founder - he insists on the project being open and adfree forever, supported by patrons: https://lichess.org/patron

I'm also unaffiliated, just a user.

local_yokel• 8 years ago

Can also recommend lichess. Been playing there for a couple years now. They're a registered non-profit, and none of the features are hidden if you choose not to donate.

simplify• 8 years ago

And written in mithril.js, no less! :)

dschuetz• 8 years ago

"Every move has consequences" - That is absolutely brilliant! Is there any better way to explain such an abstract life concept to kids who can't see the consequences of whatever they do?

omeid24• 8 years ago

At the wake of all these concerns around video games, I am gonna risk it still and say Video Games.

It teaches a lot about consequences. Perhaps not on par with chess, because, most popular games demands much less exercise in deliberation and strategic(/critical?) thinking.

mehrdadn6• 8 years ago

What are the consequences? Respawning?

magicalhippo• 8 years ago

Not just direct consequences, but indirect consequences such as opportunity cost.

Yes you took that pawn, but now your knight is in a vulnerable position... maybe there was a better play.

icebraining• 8 years ago

I know a few "problematic" kids, from slackers to convicted violent robbers, and none of them deny the existence of consequences. What I see is overconfidence in their ability to predict them, or a fatalism about their lack of real options.

I can see chess helping with some aspects of their mental health (training calm logical thinking, coping with losing), but I don't think it actually teaches anything about consequences.

leanthonyrn• 8 years ago

X-COM 2 has the same effect.

ramblerman2• 8 years ago

In life, like chess, every move has a consequence.

This is all pretty hyperbolic post-hoc reasoning.

My guess is that against the alternative of juveniles just sitting in a cell and being neglected any program that stimulates them, invests time and effort into them, and gets them passionate is going to have promising results.

disclaimer: I think this is a great result, and should be promoted but the pseudo-scientific explanations just get to me...

omeid24• 8 years ago

How is making an analogy for action and consequence is hyperbolic post-hoc reasoning?

michaelt• 8 years ago

ramblerman interprets "In life, like chess, every move has a consequence" to mean "The reason this program is effective is it teaches offenders that moves have consequences" and considers that a post-hoc explanation.

JumpCrisscross• 8 years ago

I work in an industry which encourages ADD. Chess is one of the ways I maintain my attention span. My game tells me when I’m tired, stressed, inattentive or missing forests for trees.

ramblerman2• 8 years ago

Me too. I notice a distinct drop in my tactic exercises when I'm underslept.

Not sure what that has to do with my initial point though.

ska2• 8 years ago

Agree on the limits of post-hoc reasoning.

In my limited experience, these kids may reacting positively not due to anything specific about chess or the program, rather to the fact that people seem to care about their development and options. Plus the fact they are being put through a non-antagonistic and less dangerous program than juvie.

I also think it's a great idea.

ghaff• 8 years ago

In the same vein, it's unfortunately pretty common for pilot programs like this to be successful, in part because there's lots of attention and focus on success. Then you scale it up and the good results evaporate.

sametmax• 8 years ago

Besides, if we skip science, the tetris analogy seems way more accurate than chess.

dalbasal• 8 years ago

To bring it full circle...

any program that stimulates them, invests time and effort into them, and gets them passionate is going to result in philosophical statements like "everything I know about life, I learned playing rugby" or "In life, like chess, every move has a consequence."

projectramo• 8 years ago

Yes, if this had backfired I wonder if people would talk about how chess "Makes you see everything in black and white. You win or lose, or rarely draw. There is no team work!"

It would be interesting to know if chess is more effective than, say, reading or making movies. There is something intellectual about it.

nerdponx• 8 years ago

I imagine there's something beneficial in the fact that it's competitive, and therefore non-solitary. You're forced to interact with your opponent.

bitwize• 8 years ago

It's not that every move has a consequence, it's that chess requires you to think about the long-term ramifications of each move. Petty criminals often become so because they lack the capacity for such long-term thinking ability, or so goes the popular psychological theory, in which case chess may be an easy way to develop it.

leblowl2• 8 years ago

Yea I think that's spot on, at least the long-term thinking in chess part. I think that thinking about future actions is more often involved in chess than soccer or many other activities. In soccer the players on the board change positions too quickly to think very far ahead.

gowld5• 8 years ago

That's a huge leap. Impulse control is an emotional/subconscious behavior, not a failure of planning. People with poor impulse control (most "stupid" criminals), can make plans but fail to execute them. Similar goes for ADD (which affects criminals and non-criminals).

everdev• 8 years ago

Reminds me of the NBA ads claiming life and basketball are "so similar".

These creative sentences are great when they work, but are there any checks and balances on this? What if a judge thinks religious studies are the best way to reform a child? Are they obligated to participate, or is it an option for the kid to go to juvenile hall instead?

Florin_Andrei• 8 years ago

> In life, like chess, every move has a consequence.
This is all pretty hyperbolic post-hoc reasoning.

Sure, but OTOH it is literally true.

ada19812• 8 years ago

I’ve been exploring the idea of an alt-prison startup.

I imagine things like nature, skills, community, art, trauma healing, etc. could all be a big part of it.

pasbesoin• 8 years ago

I've thought about these ideas, as well.

One concern I've had to add to my thinking: That non-incarcerated people also have access to these things. Nature, and all the rest. And simply time to seek them out and take advantage of them.

We shouldn't get to the point, where incarceration is the means by which such things become accessible.

Making sure they're accessible, outside of incarceration, might help to prevent incarceration in the first place.

I'm all for rehabilitation. Just, it should start before things come to law-breaking. In other words, focus on quality of life as a primary "deterrent".

Quality of environment seems a fundamental part of that.

toomanybeersies3• 8 years ago

In Australia, they have (or were) using flying lessons to try and rehabilitate drug addicts [1]. Apparently the idea was to stall the plane and have the patients recover from the stall, as a way of teaching them about taking control of their own life. I don't know what the long term results are, and it's part of a longer term rehab program so it would be hard to narrow it down specifically.

Regardless, it's an interesting approach. It's good to see that authorities are realising that the traditional approaches to addiction and criminal rehabilitiation are ineffective and trying other options.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-australia-43369891/austral...

jazoom• 8 years ago

I can imagine the board meeting where they were discussing an alternative "high" they could offer the drug addicts.

J-dawg2• 8 years ago

I've noticed people often object to these types of schemes because they see them as rewarding people for bad behaviour.

I'm not usually one of those people (If it works, it works, right?). But I feel like giving out flying lessons (a lifelong and unaffordable goal for many people) would be a pretty tough idea to sell to the tax paying public.

yardie2• 8 years ago

Add it to the long list of shit taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay for, except prison. Incarceration costs $70-120k/pp/year. Keeping someone in custody for 10-20 years vs paying to learn a trade seems no nsensical. But that’s what the voters and politicians want.

gowld5• 8 years ago

Drug addiction is a disease, not a "bad behavior"

sandworm101• 8 years ago

Having stalled aircraft many times, I don't see how this would be linked. Un-stalling is the easiest thing in the world (assuming you aren't close to the ground). Doing it perfectly to military standards takes practice, but simple recovery is a nothing task. Either way, it is done and over in seconds. It's a little scary if you haven't done it before, but after the first time it's nothing. Recovery from drug addiction takes years, requiring many thousands of difficult decisions.

toomanybeersies3• 8 years ago

If you've possibly never even been in a plane before, let alone flown one, it would be a pretty wild experience.

It's a single tool in a box of tools towards recovery. I don't think it was meant to be the adrenaline rush that's meant to be helpful, but rather giving them an experience to hold on to, and to try and teach them to take control of their destiny. At least that's what the video says.

I'm also skeptical as to its benefits. But anything is better than locking addicts in a box and expecting them to be magically cured. In my experience, it's a lack of support networks and associating with the wrong people that keeps most people locked in a cycle of crime, addiction, and poverty. There are a lot of people who are "rehabilitated" and full of optimism, but then they go back home, to the same toxic environment and fall back into the same cycle.

implements• 8 years ago

Season 1, episode 3 of "The Wire" has a pretty inciteful scene featuring Chess as a metaphor for the criminal life ("Pawns get capped early."):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztc7o0NzFrE

SubiculumCode2• 8 years ago

As much as I love the Wire, it should have mentioned that collectively pawns are the most powerful. A good pawn structure controls the center and the game.

gowld5• 8 years ago

... if they don't get capped early. In a less-positional game, the players are going to capture pawns to build an edge, not attack the queen immediately.

RickJWagner• 8 years ago

I bet they cheat. :)

Seriously, it seems like it would encourage discipline, a good thing.

psergeant• 8 years ago

I’d be interested to see its effectiveness vs any other activity involving high quality time with intelligent, motivated, caring adults.

mondoshawan• 8 years ago

I do wonder, what, exactly they mean by non-violent crimes. It's early in the morning and my brain isn't quite up to snuff yet, but all I can think of are vandalism, copyright violation, and stealing...?

chriskanan• 8 years ago

Most property crimes, such as theft, embezzlement, receipt of stolen goods, vandalism, and arson of personal property

Fraud, tax crimes, other forms of white collar crime

Drug and alcohol-related crimes

Prostitution

Racketeering and gambling

Bribery

From: https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/non-violent-v...

toomanybeersies3• 8 years ago

I don't think they're locking kids up in juvie for tax evasion...

retsibsi• 8 years ago

It would include drug crimes as well. I think you can take the words at face value (with an implied 'physically' modifying 'violent'), except that crimes involving only the threat of violence may count as violent crimes.

binarymax2• 8 years ago

When I was a teenager (in the 90s) I was a chess teacher/coach. I won't quote cliches and metaphors which I believe are trite and gloss over the point.

While we had a large group of behaved kids, some parents would send their troublesome children to learn chess as a way to socialize in a healthy intellectual environment with a strong value and ethics system. As a coach it was very difficult, especially since I was socially awkward and troubled myself as a teen. We wouldn't just play chess though - which can get very competitive and one sided. We also enjoyed team activities like the chess variants bughouse and kriegspiel, and we'd get outside and play soccer and kickball too - I found those to be the most helpful (I love those two variants I mentioned much more than chess).

In short, the rewards were real and long-lasting. Chess helped turn me around personally, and gave me an exposure for responsibility (and I fucked up a couple times but that's part of learning from mistakes in life). I know many of the children in our club went on to have responsible and successful lives, and while it wasn't really our goal (we were just playing games!), it makes me happy that it was a side effect.

SubiculumCode2• 8 years ago

Chess limits the blame game. You lost because you didn't think, son. Chess encapsulates an attitude that it starts and ends with yourself.

kazinator• 8 years ago

Chess will teach the youth to be better strategists, to better evade the authorities when they become adult offenders.

ca98am79• 8 years ago

The great thing about chess is that it does not discriminate. A child can beat an adult, poor can beat rich, uneducated can beat educated, etc..

When I played as a kid, it gave me a lot of confidence because I could beat a grown adult in a game of intellect. This had a huge impact on my life.

forkLding• 8 years ago

I wonder if Go is a better game, it is quite easy to pick up (surround opponents with different colour) but also very long to play.

Judges sentence youth offenders to chess, with promising results

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