Ready for Production Apps: Flutter Beta 3

https://developers.googleblog.com/2018/05/ready-for-production-apps-flutter-beta-3.html

by grigy • 8 years ago

160 104 8 years ago

developers.googleblog.com

hliyan2• 8 years ago

I've been playing around with Flutter for a few weeks now and I'm convinced that this is the future of cross platform app development. I was initially put off by having to learn an obscure language (Dart), but the reality is, it's a lot easier to learn than learning all the semantics, tools and practices that come with a massive ecosystem like React.

everdev• 8 years ago

I'm evaluating it. Why do you think it's the future? What's the feature you value most?

ma2rten3• 8 years ago

I tried both Flutter and ReactNative. I am not an expert, so take it with a grain of salt, but here is my first impression:

I would say the best part about it is the hot reload, which maintains application state. It's compiled to native code so it's going to run faster than ReactNative which is a javascript bundle that runs besides your app. Compile times are fast, but not instantaneous and you have to trigger the reload manually.

I think it also has the most complete implementation of Material UI out there. It implements widgets that are not implemented in iOS, Android nor Web. It's like having something like bootstrap that makes it easier to build a good looking app. I feel like you really need a mock first to build a reactnative app, but you could get away with just writing code in flutter.

Unlike ReactNative there is no way of trying it without installing the Android or iOS development environment. Initially that was a bit of a barrier for me as a first-time mobile dev, but not a big deal eventually.

It's not as mature as ReactNative. There was no build-in way to do audio, something I need for the app I am trying to build. However, I found a plugin for it on github.

I know Google has a reputation of canceling projects, but Flutter is used to develop the Google AdWords app so I don't think it will go away anytime soon.

hliyan2• 8 years ago

I've been a React fanatic for several years, so my opinion is colored by that:

1. Great DX (developer experience) - a single language (Dart); no need for JSX, JavaScript, JSON, Flux/Redux and various other libraries. You can focus on the business logic rather than battling the ecosystem.

2. A single set of components (no iOS or Android specific navigator components etc.)

3. No longer need a JS engine to run - truly native

4. As fast as promised

ryanwaggoner2• 8 years ago

Eh. People have been saying this about cross-platform frameworks for what, 25 years?

“Build once, compile everywhere!”

They all come and go, but native seems to always win in the end. It seems like the hierarchy over the last couple decades in terms of “market share” for successful projects is: web > native app > hybrid app. I really doubt any framework is going to change that, or become all that dominant within what is basically a small niche.

fauigerzigerk• 8 years ago

Flutter is the native toolkit on Fuchsia though. If (as some expect) Fuchsia is the Android successor (or somehow merges with Android) then we will be in a different situation.

The native UI toolkit that powers 85% of all mobile devices will then also be usable on the remaining 15%. That changes the equation for all but the most high profile iOS apps.

saagarjha• 8 years ago

Alibaba praises Flutter for its consistency across platforms

As a user, I don't. Sure, on Android Flutter looks OK, but on iOS it looks out-of-place.

ma2rten3• 8 years ago

There is an iOS theme (Cupertino), but I am not sure how complete it is.

threeseed• 8 years ago

The available widgets are shown here:

https://flutter.io/widgets/cupertino/

harveynick• 8 years ago

It’s not so much the widgets as it is the actual look and feel. Neither scrolling nor text rendering is quite right.

I wrote a post to that effect here: https://harveynick.com/2018/05/21/an-ios-developers-opinions...

wokwokwok• 8 years ago

This has been posted 4 times before with zero interest in it when it was announced a month ago.

Did something change?

Did someone just want an excuse to talk about flutter for a bit?

I'm quite opposed to this 'post random link on topic X because I want to talk about X' thing.

If you want to talk about flutter at least bother to find something which is technically interesting to read. This is just marketing talk.

myguysi2• 8 years ago

Probably marketing, that’s the one thing that bugs me about Flutter and React Native. They’re not as big as the hype would have you believe

conradfr• 8 years ago

Maybe because of this tweet https://twitter.com/sandofsky/status/1002637340291018754

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17216628

quangio2• 8 years ago

I am having a side project built with Flutter. (here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=zero.sleep.com... ). The ecosystem is not as big as ReactNative (because Dart + it's new) but the developer exerience is really good. Dart is not that bad, and I really love the toolings even they were in the experimental state. Hot Reload, good IDE, typed, Java-like but less verbose, stream...

slow_donkey2• 8 years ago

This is beautiful, thanks for sharing. Do you have a repo hosted somewhere I could poke around in?

brunoluiz• 8 years ago

Fun fact: on pre-release Angular 2 versions, Dart was it's main language. My hypothesis is that, if they decided to continue using Dart, probably we would have more Dart developers and this could have lead to a faster Flutter adoption.

martalist• 8 years ago

and/or less Angular 2 adoption.

Vinnl• 8 years ago

Angular.js (aka Angular 1) had a Dart option for a long time, which was hardly used. If it were the only option, it'd have probably led to fewer Angular developers.

hknd• 8 years ago

angulardart (1) is still available, but probably not used by any serious project. Still have mixed feelings about dart - apparently some of the biggest frontends at Google (advertising) use this, so it must do something really good.

1: https://webdev.dartlang.org/angular

slow_donkey2• 8 years ago

I've heard some pretty bad things about it from googlers

skybrian• 8 years ago

I'm not sure what you mean?AdWords uses AngularDart. It's the best-supported way to build a web app in Dart.

There was web UI framework churn in Dart's early years, but last I heard, Google has settled on AngularDart.

falcon620• 8 years ago

I keep checking up on issue 730 once in a while:

https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/730

Nope. Still no inline webview component.

nevi-me2• 8 years ago

That reminds me of MongoDB's infamous issues that remained open for years. They became the subject of many blog posts and discussions.

I still remember SERVER-1243 so well because of how much I saw it. They eventually fixed/closed it last year, after 7 years.

My main missing features on Flutter are:

* background execution * Google maps parity with Android/iOS

https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/SERVER-1243

samueldavid• 8 years ago

im waiting for webview too :(

hazz992• 8 years ago

A few months ago, I began using Flutter for a sideproject (That I wanted to release).

Although the developer experience is absolute fantastic (And definitely the future), the plugin ecosystem is extremely lacking. I wanted to use AWS, and there was 0 backing for it. Since I didn't want to interact with raw AWS APIs, I moved to React Native.

isuckatcoding• 8 years ago

It looks like you could "wrap" native libraries using custom packages: https://flutter.io/developing-packages/#plugin.

I'm curious which AWS APIs you'd want to connect your mobile app directly to. S3/ SQS?

hazz992• 8 years ago

I wanted to use Cognito & Lambda functions (Through the API Gateway). The AWS-Amplify library makes this super easy, but isn't available for Dart.

If there's a better way, please let me know! I loved Flutter, and I loved Dart.

alfonsodev• 8 years ago

This all sounds very cool until you need something in your app that is not provided as third party module yet, or numerous third party plugins that you are using start being unmaintained or buggy or they don't support your use case.

Then you'll need to write your own plugin in native language, but you have been writing in Flutter and you don't know enough about the native platform.

My opinion, if you don't know native development yet, make two "boring" applications in kotlin and Swift and learn the native platforms. Long term you'll be a better more complete app developer. Later if you want to try flutter or react-native you won't be locked by what plugins can do.

cutler2• 8 years ago

Learn Swift+iOS & Kotlin/Java+Android then Dart/Flutter. How many lifetimes is that to become deeply proficient?

scarface74• 8 years ago

Dart/Flutter is the least marketable skillet that you could obtain right now in 2018.

If I'm going to take the time to learn a new skillset, I'm going to learn the one that gives me the most marketability and pays the highest that would be iOS/Swift, then Java/Android and then I might play around with Dart/Flutter.

I usually prefer to start with the fundamentals and then learn abstractions/frameworks. Take front end development for example. While frameworks change every six months, knowing the fundamentals of JavaScript/CSS/HTML is valuable long term.

pjmlp3• 8 years ago

I do consulting across Java, Android, .NET, C++ and Web stacks.

I am a Language X expert that knows every little detail, surely no.

Am I proficient enough to keep costumers happy with the results and willing to keep assignments for new stuff coming my way? You bet.

TheAceOfHearts• 8 years ago

The title is a bit of an oxymoron; aren't production-ready and beta mutually exclusive in most cases? The examples they showcase seem like pretty small and simple apps. The musical one seems like it could've easily been a web app, since it's just displaying information.

ericand• 8 years ago

Amen. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

nevi-me2• 8 years ago

I like the direction that Flutter has taken, cross-platform without the baggage of being a web platform.

If you know JS and Java, Dart is very easy to learn. About a few hours' worth of tinkering and you'll be good.

I had an Android app [0] that I was trying to build with Kotlin in the evenings/weekends. I switched to Flutter, and was able to get something out of the door in less than the time I spent on Kotlin/Java.

I like the mix between Flutter and being able to call native APIs. The only thing I'm missing right now is good maps support. Google and Mapbox have some prototypes, but it's still too early to use them (for what I want to do).

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=za.co.movingga...

riku_iki• 8 years ago

cross-platform without the baggage of being a web platform.

Simple ability to run in the browser, even not perfectly, would still add a lot of value though..

dman2• 8 years ago

From Laws of spacecraft design -> 39. Any exploration program which "just happens" to include a new launch vehicle is, de facto, a launch vehicle program.

I suspect adding ability to run in browser imperfectly would just invite demands for Flutter to become a web dev framework entirely.

vijaybritto2• 8 years ago

Anyone else wants them to release flutter for desktop so that we can replace electron?! Someone at Google please make this a possibility!

tamalsaha001• 8 years ago

Something like https://github.com/google/flutter-desktop-embedding ?

vijaybritto2• 8 years ago

Yes!! This is a great start! They have a gold mine in their hands. I hope they understand that and make it a possibility!

d--b• 8 years ago

Isn't "beta" supposed to mean "not quite ready for production"?

RyanZAG• 8 years ago

Chicken and egg, right? If Google declares it not ready for production, then nobody uses it for production apps, so it never gets the kind of testing it needs to really be production ready.

If Google declares it out of beta, then people assume nothing will change, and if things do change they complain.

So the current wisdom is to have a 'production ready beta' which indicates an in-between period where things can change, but you're encouraged and expected to use it in production.

vertex-four• 8 years ago

Wouldn’t that traditionally be a Release Candidate? Something you think is good to go, but needs wider testing before you can say that for sure?

bartq• 8 years ago

I liked the idea of Flutter since I saw it for the first time probably long time ago. Dart as a language choice was throwing me back though, but in general this language is very similar to ES6 and makes OO easier. For example it doesn't require to use `this` in methods. I wish it was TypeScript instead, because it has more mature tooling and community support.

I'm still hesitant to put my hand on it for side project until it's more popular. Chicken and egg problem I guess.

hbhakhra• 8 years ago

I get that learning another new language sucks and JavaScript would've been nice instead but the Dart language choice actually enables some very nice features in terms of developer experience. I don't remember the details off the top of my head, but I believe stateful reload is one example of what possible because of Dart.

bsaul3• 8 years ago

Apple really need to react if they want swift to get any traction. IOS hasn’t had any major UI update since iOS7 , and android is a mess anyway, so using a cross platform now makes more sense than ever. The icing on the cake would be to have a path for reusing dart business layer between flutter and angular.

That’s a really promising stack.

ryanwaggoner2• 8 years ago

Ha. This is hilarious. Most high-profile / successful iOS apps (other than games) are native. And judging from what I’m seeing in the ecosystem, I’d guess that most teams out there have switched to Swift or will do so soon. There’s very little enthusiasm or innovation in the Objective-C ecosystem at this point.

The lack of a major UI update in the last few years is a feature, not a bug. It doesn’t seem to have held back either iOS device sales or the Swift ecosystem.

bsaul3• 8 years ago

I don't think you got my comment right. I was advocating for apple to expand swift to other platforms ( android, pc desktop, web, server, whatever), in order to compete with techs like flutter.

The reason cross platform tools weren't a good fit before and are now is both because hardware is now powerful enough, and because platforms have now reach a stable point.

stemuk• 8 years ago

You might be interested in this talk [1] from Dart Conf that highlights code sharing between Flutter and Angular Dart. The general take-away is that code sharing is possible, it requires however a strict separation of UI related and business logic code.

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PLHln7wHgPE

bsaul3• 8 years ago

That was my intuition, thanks. I'll definitely investigate. I'm also thinking a full stack dart platform, since dart also hs a very interesting server side story.

hitlin37• 8 years ago

Anyone has any comment on Fuse framework? Since it has been open sourced i have been looking into it and it seems interesting to code in.

hawski3• 8 years ago

How good is FFI in Dart? I mean how fast and easy is it? I see that it can call C and C++ libraries, but that's nowadays a basic requirement for any FFI. I'm looking maybe for an opinion and maybe some kind of numbers to back up it's performance.

As far as I understand it on Android it's compiled to a CPU native binary and has to use NDK and JNI to do anything. If that's a fact it's funny that on Google's own platform it has to go through two FFIs - Dart to C to Java. While on iOS just one - Dart to C, because what's there not to it for Obj-C?

I'm dreaming for a truly native everywhere platform. Something that would compile to DEX or JVM byte code for Android, CLR on Windows and a binary everywhere else. While using native widget toolkit for each platform - practically without any FFI. Also respecting HIG of each platform. Yeah, I'm a dreamer.

I heard about https://www.elementscompiler.com/ , but I would also like for it to be open source. :P

geokon2• 8 years ago

I mean, if you're gunna use C++ libraries, is there a reason not to just make the whole app in C++ (like with Qt/QML)? Seems adding a new language/toolchain to the mix is a recipe for headaches.

That's a genuine question :) I don't do any app development so maybe I'm missing something - is Qt not sufficient? It seems to run on everything as-is

hawski3• 8 years ago

I didn't say anything about C++ libraries, at least in case of my dream thing.

The problem with Qt is that it draws its own widgets. It is close on some platforms like with Gtk+ theme, but most people report how it does not look native on their platform. Also on Android it has to use JNI and NDK so it's not native to Android as DEX/Java is. On Windows I believe that CLR or at least COM (you can do it even C, but that requires effort) is a native platform.

Qt is from a time when C was kinda native for everyone. It's a different world now for better or worse.

Of course Qt has some advantage over one of many other widget toolkits drawing their own widgets. It hooks to native accessibility APIs for example. Other than that: dlangui, Lambda Native or even SDL2 can be seen as contenders.

mwcampbell4• 8 years ago

I share your dream. I seriously considered Elements for a project a couple of years ago, but rejected it, because I didn't want to get into a situation where Apple introduced a new platform (e.g. tvOS) or a new technical requirement (e.g. 64-bit or bitcode) and I would be stuck because I was dependent on a third-party, closed-source compiler to produce native code.

greenhouse_gas• 8 years ago

FFI is actually quite bad. You can't talk to native (C, C++, Go, Rust) code directly. You have to talk to Java, and if you need, from Java to Native.

You also communicate to Java through serialization, rather than through shared memory.

Oh, and any communication goes through a Future, which is annoying.

mikece2• 8 years ago

There are several aspects of Flutter that are compelling. The two which I find the most interesting are speed of development and the platform independence when designing the app.

Speed of development: I've seen Flutter development referred to as a "double hot reloading" dev paradigm: UI and app logic. Hot-reloading the UI on design changes isn't new (React Native, NativeScript, and even Xamarin can do this) but the team at Google made a purpose-built debugging compiler for Flutter which separates state management from the app logic so if you're working on code deep into an app and need to fix something in the logic, the executing code is reloaded while the app's state and UI remain where they are so you don't have to start over from the launch screen, log in, start your transaction/order/process..... This process cycle -- launch, login, start an order, get to the state of an order to test the logic I just altered -- used to consume five to ten minutes per iteration when I was doing Xamarin work. Being able to edit and re-run the application logic without losing state and starting over is HUGE!

Platform independence: the UI for Flutter apps doesn't rely on the native OS widgets of iOS or Android (or Fuchsia!) but a C++ layer that bundles and ships with the app in question. It's akin to building a business app in game template where you can custom-define everything about the UI and any widgets you want to use... a lot of work but they will look and act the same on iOS and Android (and Fuchsia) and presumably run fast. This is a massive difference from Xamarin where cross-platform apps end up using the platform-native widgets which is known to result in non-trivial amounts of "if (Platform_Android) {...} else if (Platform_iOS) {...}" or just going the more sure-fire way of not entering Xamarin-debug-hell: make the UI for your app using the platform-specific Xamarin-tooling and move as much code to the share logic layers which don't need to be changed between Android and iOS.

The final thing I'll say about Flutter: I told a colleague who thinks that C++ is the ideal cross-platform mobile language about Flutter. Two weeks later he came back, told me he made a demo app with it, then decompiled the resulting IPA and APK files to inspect the assembly code and he concluded that it was essentially the same as if the app had been written in C++ from the get-go. I'll take his word for it since I lack the skills to verify that for myself but it certainly speaks well for the performance potential of Flutter!

zengid2• 8 years ago

This is a massive difference from Xamarin where cross-platform apps end up using the platform-native widgets which is known to result in non-trivial amounts of "if (Platform_Android) {...} else if (Platform_iOS) {...}"

Is your Xamarin experience using Xamarin.Forms? It sounds like Forms allows for more cross-platform gui code reuse. I'm doing a lot of investigation into Xamarin because I'm learning C# this summer for an internship and I love the language.

mikece2• 8 years ago

Xamarin.Forms provides an abstracted UI definition of common controls across platforms. This makes design faster since you can simply specify a Button or a Picker without knowing or caring that the actual implementations on iOS are UIButton or UIPickerView (eg: UIDatePicker) or that on Android they are android.widget.Button or android.app.DatePickerDialog. All UIs defined in Xamarin are rendered with OS-native widgets.

ajconway2• 8 years ago

On iOS it's not possible to seamlessly integrate any custom UI drawing with OS animations (keyboard, rotation). This means that certain types of apps will never feel right on the platform, which should significantly limit usability of the framework outside of Android and desktop.

mwcampbell4• 8 years ago

Interesting. Can you expand on which types of apps wouldn't feel right on iOS if developed in Flutter?

ajconway2• 8 years ago

Any app where text input is a major feature — messengers, social network apps, email clients. Most apps with a search field — usually some parts of UI move when opening and closing keyboard. Long time android users don’t expect any of these interactions to animate smoothly and in perfect sync, but it is essential for iOS UX.

saintfiends• 8 years ago

Biggest blocker for me is not being able to use WebView.

Issue https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/730 has been open for 2+ years with no solution.

It would be nice to know how big of a challenge this is or if there is a plan to solve it at all.

marktechson• 8 years ago

There are existing options for this: https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/flutter_webview_plugin

k__• 8 years ago

How does it compare to React-Native?

I know it compiles to native, but on the other hand only the business-logic in RN is written in JS, UI and bindings are native.

Create-React-Native-App and Expo already deliver very good UX.

My main pain points with CRNA/Expo are bundle size and in-app purchases, not performance or DX.

zengid2• 8 years ago

Does flutter have a canvas yet? Whats the story for making arbitrary custom components, like a draggable rectangle that can be moved around a grid?

xxgreg• 8 years ago

"A widget that provides a canvas on which to draw during the paint phase."

https://docs.flutter.io/flutter/widgets/CustomPaint-class.ht...

Edit: All of the built-in framework widgets are written in Dart and rendered via canvas-like draw calls at the lowest layer (See dart:ui). Since the widgets are available under a liberal open source license you can fork them and customise them however you like.

kyle-rb• 8 years ago

Flutter looked absolutely perfect to me until I looked into calling C++ libraries, in order to facilitate a mobile version of a desktop app made with Qt/C++. It turns out the only way to call C++ code is to write two separate wrappers, one in Java (with NDK) and one in Objective-C.

It seems like a pain in the ass to have to go through two separate channels to access code that's perfectly cross-platform to begin with.

mamcx• 8 years ago

The part I wish to have for things like this:

We're also working to make it easier to add Flutter to your existing Android or iOS codebase.

Ideally, it must just refer a single lib + provide the path to the dart code/resources folders. Plus have a truly nice bridge/callbacks so I could have the heavy logic inside my native code.

ie, as easy as possible like with a webview.

simonhorlick• 8 years ago

Flutter is by far the best UI library I've dealt with. Its like React, but without the nasty JSX syntax. The APIs are sane and thoroughly documented. Its layout model is (by design) super simple, so it's really quick to prototype and iterate. The developer tools are top-notch: great support in IntelliJ, hot reload.

But the best thing about flutter is the rendering. It's completely consistent across platforms because it renders every pixel itself and because of this it's also really easy to draw exactly what a designer envisioned.

Ready for Production Apps: Flutter Beta 3

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