Google Making Extraordinary Counteroffers To Stop Flow Of Employees To Facebook

http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/01/google-making-extraordinary-counteroffers-to-stop-flow-of-employees-to-facebook/

by daviday • 16 years ago

65 64 16 years ago

maukdaddy2• 16 years ago

  no reason their stock won’t hit $100 billion in total valuation over the next couple of years.

That's got to be a joke.

pchristensen• 16 years ago

Why? If Facebook finds a monetization engine for its huge userbase, $100B isn't out of the question. They're already making $1B/yr from ads.

nostromo2• 16 years ago

"Making" to me tends to refer to profit, not gross revenue. In operating revenue, they made a few tens of millions last year on less than 1b gross. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/infotech/internet/Facebo...

That's impressive, but they will have to double their profit several more times to warrant a 100b price tag.

Google has a PE ratio of 20. If you extend that to FB, they'll need to make 5b in revenue to get to 100b. Assuming that last year they banked 20mm, they would have to double their earnings eight times to get to 5b.

joe_the_user3• 16 years ago

Yes, if Fb finds a strong monetization engine for its huge user base then $100b seems possible.

However, as I remember, Google had found their monetization engine before their IPO. Fb hasn't and the IPO is supposed to be just around the corner. Plenty of other large sites didn't work out like Google. I mean, Fb could wind-up like Yahoo, lots of users but no great monetization from them. In fact, Fb looks a lot like a better Yahoo since it more or less provides what Yahoo provides in a more integrated format.

Consider, if a brick-and-mortor company somehow offered free storage of real-world goods anywhere in the world, they could easily grow to millions of users too. The monetization question would loom large as well.

philwelch3• 16 years ago

Amazon is $59B. (http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:AMZN) Amazon's user base is probably comparable to Facebook, and they're monetarizing the hell out of it. How is Facebook supposed to almost double that?

maukdaddy2• 16 years ago

Google has a $146b market cap. Google brought in 23 BILLION in revenue last year.

You think FB is making 23 billion? I don't.

elblanco• 16 years ago

At 500 million active users, they're sweeping up some pretty non-trivial percentage of all of humanity. Unless they figure out something that'll grow their revenue by 100x...I hope that any investor isn't banking on the continued exponential growth curve of the human species as a market for targeted adverts in the near term.

Basically they're going to need to start selling "stuff" for that valuation to make any sense at all.

narkee• 16 years ago

Wow, mid-level developers pull $150k?

Everything I had read previously stated that Google salaries were nothing special compared to industry averages, and it was the perks and culture that differentiated them

But there's no way $150k is average for a mid-range developer.

nostromo2• 16 years ago

And you're not even mentioning the $500k retention bonus... Something seems off here.

gecko• 16 years ago

I have friends at Google, and have heard nothing indicating that salaries are anywhere in this ballpark. I also just spoke to someone whose girlfriend works there, and he too agreed that this article is bullshit. They might mean mid-level manager, or they may be counting all of the perks as part of the salary. But even there, a half-million retention bonus seems absurd to both of us.

joe_the_user3• 16 years ago

Could "Mid-level developer" might mean a super developer who's considered at the level of a mid-level manager? IE, mid-level != mid-range?

Google is a lot bigger than Facebook currently so I'd assume Facebook would be aiming to pick what they consider the "cream". The article mentions 118. Google has ~20K employees and a good portion of them would engineers.

whakojacko2• 16 years ago

Just wondering, what would you call average for a developer straight from college?

mikeryan• 16 years ago

From glassdoor.com

Software Engineer 697 Google Salaries Average $98,813 Range $70k-$129k

Senior Software Engineer 77 Google Salaries - Average $124,393 Range $63k - $150k

Software Engineer III 55 Google Salaries - Average $103,125 Range: $93k- $115k

Software Engineer In Test 55 Google Salaries - Average: $85,078 Range: $62k- $104k

Software Engineer II 20 Google Salaries - Average: $87,20 Range: $72k- $105k

(so yeah $150k is highest end of Senior SW Engineer)

houseabsolute• 16 years ago

But we also have five additional levels above "senior software engineer," and there are a pretty large number of people in those higher regions. I'd say 150k is a bit above the "mid level" range, but it's certainly not above the 95%ile.

Jun8• 16 years ago

From what I know from friends the base salary may not be that much but they get handsome bonuses, maybe he added those to the base to get that number.

larsberg• 16 years ago

Even back in ~2005, "Seattle area compensation" was ~90k for folks just out of college, if you managed to get to mid-range it was around 120k, and then around 175k at senior IC levels. And, at the mid-range the eligible bonus amount jumped to around 50% yearly, and at the higher levels to > 100% of base.

These numbers were slightly higher than Google's at the time, but GOOG was still playing the "our stock options are worth more than their stock grants" line. In any case, ~150k for mid-range is certainly believable.

That said, realize that mid-range in pure software companies making Big Stuff is a little different. Most startup-level CTOs and Fortune 100-level "Architect" types came in at the bottom of mid-range, just due to not having worked at scope.

At the time, Apple had the lowest pay for comparable grades of any of the firms we researched in our Seattle-area recruiting. Of course, those stock packages have probably made up for things -- if they didn't just flip them at vest for cash immediately, like most employees do!

Also, if you think 150k is high, you should chat with folks doing software development in the finance industry. It's honestly a bit overboard, but the companies do what they have to in order to make sure that offers from Facebook, etc. aren't at all tempting.

joe_the_user3• 16 years ago

I suspect what's called "area compensation" is towards the higher end of what the average developer can expect.

My rather vague impression is that the people who are considered good enough that a recruiter has to hire them will get the 80-100k while for the rest its more like 60-80K.

Correct me if I'm wrong - please, I'm curious really...

Edit: Google in particular is a large company by now. At the start, I would assume they'd pay premium for developers but over time I'd assume they'd aim to pay least possible for the people who met their standards.

jlees• 16 years ago

As someone on TC put it, a mid-range dev at Google could easily be a superstar dev elsewhere. Ignoring that, if you factor in vesting stock and the annual bonus, 150k doesn't seem that insane to me.

lsc• 16 years ago

It's possible that they are including the costs of benefits and perks. My impression that mid level for google (which is to say, top level people most places in the valley.) was around $30-$40K lower than that in terms of cash monies.

But I could easily believe that if you include the cash value of benefits, vacation, and perks, that shoots up to $150K. Google's salary is generally not anything to write home about either way, but they do hire people who would be top-end most other places, and their perks are top notch.

brg3• 16 years ago

The report of Google salaries at Glassdoor.com is accurate.

Engineers start at T3 out of college, and move to T4 after a year. T4 is mid level. Senior is a T4 with a good win and some presentation skills. Staff are some of the best engineers with long track records, but require some managerial skills. Those above are superstars and managers.

sumeetjain• 16 years ago

"Facebook is quietly telling people, never in writing, that there’s no reason their stock won’t hit $100 billion in total valuation over the next couple of years. No guarantees, yadda yadda, but hey if you get 1/10 of 1%, that’s $100 million in stock."

Am I missing something, or is expecting "1/10 of 1%" equity insane? I've never heard of a mid-level developer getting that at a company of Facebook's size.

ecuzzillo• 16 years ago

Well, maybe they're expecting 1/100 of 1% or less, which would still net them several million, which is a lot more than Google's counteroffer.

jw84• 16 years ago

No guarantees.

jackowayed• 16 years ago

There was a rumor somewhere that a few people they really want are getting offered as much as 1/10 of 1%.

But yeah, obviously not every Google employee that swings by Facebook for an interview is going to get offered that much. That's the ceiling.

Tim_M• 16 years ago

What does "1/10 of 1%" actually mean? How is it different from 0.1%?

kloncks2• 16 years ago

I wonder why Apple's different.

From what I read, their average salaries are much lower but their loyalty is much higher. Besides, you don't hear of too many Apple employees quickly leaving for other places, at least not as much as Facebook/Google.

Why?

maxawaytoolong2• 16 years ago

Apple salaries are not much lower, they are in fact much higher than Google. This article is bullshit, $150K is not what a mid-range engineer makes at Google.

kloncks2• 16 years ago

Do you have an idea of what they really make, then?

What I'm thinking is that Mike got "Mid Level Manager" and "Mid Level Developer" confused...

orangecat2• 16 years ago

My vague impression is that working at Apple gives you more prestige with the general public than Google or Facebook. Google has a geeky (well, even geekier) aura, and people don't like Facebook like they like Apple.

whakojacko2• 16 years ago

I buy that, but Ive never understood why any half-decent engineer would care about what the public thinks of his/her company.

scott_s• 16 years ago

While I know a lot of people who have Apple devices and like using them, I know even more people who use Google on a daily basis. So my own vague impression is that Apple and Google are about the same, with maybe an edge to Google.

dropkick• 16 years ago

No, it's the snappy uniforms!

Our brains can only superimpose our romantic fantasies over reality for so long. One romantic fantasy would be "I'm cool because I work at Apple". I can't see a talented person working somewhere for more than a year or two unless they genuinely were satisfied with the job and environment. Money isn't the only thing that motivates people.

DanielN• 16 years ago

I would think that Apple would employ a lot more computer engineers and people on the hardware side and that these would be the tech employees at apple with highest salaries, but I might be completely off base.

Anyone have any ideas if this is true?

natmaster• 16 years ago

They give you a special kool-aid. ;)

philwelch3• 16 years ago

"No matter how much resolve you could muster, it was still difficult to quit Apple if Steve wanted you to stay. You'd have to sit down with him for a reality distortion session, which was often effective at getting people to change their minds."

http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Are_You_Gonna_Do_...

Okay, that's from the 80's, but you never know, it might still be true and makes a good story either way.

smackfu• 16 years ago

Can you jump ship from Apple and work for another Mac/iOS developer? If not, your ObjectiveC skills aren't that valuable.

chailatte• 16 years ago

What's Facebook's profit this year? Any guestimates?

AlexBlom• 16 years ago

Umm...Can somebody get me a job at Google right..... now?

studer• 16 years ago

I think you're supposed to start here:

http://www.google.com/jobs

brown9-22• 16 years ago

I thought Facebook famously has/has a relatively small engineering staff - ~300 people - are they trying to rapidly expand this?

_delirium2• 16 years ago

Their Facebook Factsheet (http://www.facebook.com/press/info.php?factsheet) says they have "1400+" employees, though it doesn't break it down into job descriptions.

aresant• 16 years ago

Arrington seems to be suggesting that FB is telling recruits "that there’s no reason their stock won’t hit $100 billion in total valuation".

If that is the case, and that's coming from any sort of person in a leadership or HR position, isn't that seriously afoul of SEC rules?

chollida1• 16 years ago

> isn't that seriously afoul of SEC rules?

Which rules?? Public traded companies often give out something called guidance, which tells investors what range they think their profits and revenues, and by extension, stock price will be in the coming quarters.

known2• 16 years ago

Never take a counteroffer. It is not a win-win proposition.

known2• 16 years ago

Isn't competition catching up for FB http://www.madina.com/

Google Making Extraordinary Counteroffers To Stop Flow Of Employees To Facebook

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