Under 'Kenyan Time,' You're Expected To Arrive, Oh, Whenever

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/12/31/574537270/under-kenyan-time-you-re-expected-to-arrive-oh-whenever

by arunc • 9 years ago

56 62 9 years ago

Same with happens a lot with IST (indian 'standard' time) :D

cdubzzz2• 9 years ago

WAIT (West African International Time) in West Africa. Where I was, at least, a scheduled time mostly just indicated that the thing scheduled would happen that day (maybe).

Symbiote2• 9 years ago

Or Gambia Maybe Time, GMT, in The Gambia.

solarkraft4• 9 years ago

How does it feel? As a german I can't imagine it.

davchana• 9 years ago

Indian Stretchable Time :)

singingfish• 9 years ago

In Behasa Indonesia there is a phrase that is very close to this: "jam karet" — rubber time.

Cyph0n• 9 years ago

Arab Standard Time too.

protomyth• 9 years ago

That applies to northern plains Native Americans too expect we drop the word ‘standard’ (too formal). Indian Time is not an unknown phenomena.

PeterStuer• 9 years ago

Time is a fickle mistress. The more you watch it, the less of it you seem to have.

I work with people from many different cultures. The more 'punctual' ones always seem to ignore the present, and, without seeming to realize the contradiction, experience it as something that inhibits faster progress in some planned future realization. People live in a constant mental anguish that they are 'wasting time' at nearly every moment. By contrast the more 'time-relaxed' cultures seem less prone to discount the present for the future. If no-one is 'wasting' their own time, then you can not 'waste' someone else's by being 'late'.

Now I know there are pros and cons to both extremes, but all to often, in business, I have observed that we try to abuse 'time-controls' in the idle hope of solving trust issues. It almost never works, even when it seems to.

lucb1e• 9 years ago

The more you watch it, the less of it you seem to have.

Well if you need to watch it more, you apparently have a shortage of it.

JumpCrisscross• 9 years ago

we try to abuse 'time-controls' in the idle hope of solving trust issues

Trust involves character and competence. Being able to show up on time demonstrates a competence that is necessary in some industries and some cultures. I agree that there are people who permanently stress over self-imposed schedules.

sandworm1012• 9 years ago

The people runming self-imposed scheduals are the ones that get things done. They dont need the same level of supervision. They are the ones to trust with open-ended or unknowable tasks.

dogma1138• 9 years ago

Being on time shows that you are part of a culture with easy access to accurate and consistent time tracking devices, and have access to reliable and predictable methods of transportation, and while not being completely dependent on it it also greatly benefits from having access to reliable real time or near real time communication methods.

Punctuality has grately changed over the years as we progressed technologically.

In the 9th century being on time was quite different than it is today; within your village on time was within usually an hour or two based on the daytime cycle if you have a church with a bell you were lucky, to you nearest city it usually was within a day or a week if you had to visit a someone far far away being on time might have meant arriving within the same year.

So from my point of view anytime where I was in a place that time seem to not matter if you looked carefully you would notice why,

People didn’t had watches, those who did often wore them as jewelry / trinkets often they didn’t work or were not set to the correct time.

With mobile phones this has changes and likely within a decade you’ll also see cultural changes happening to the perception of time and punctuality.

Waterluvian• 9 years ago

The language of the article seems to try and excuse this behaviour a few times and make it the problem of "clock-obsessed cultures." It almost reads like a sheepish, "yeah it's messed up but it's not really care big deal!"

dguaraglia• 9 years ago

Thing is, it’s most likely not a big deal. I grew up in Argentina, where the only times I remember being “punctual” when meeting friends was when we were going to a scheduled event such as the cinema or theater. Otherwise, you agree on a place and time (“let’s meet at my place, after 5”) and people show up whenever they show up. Nobody gets angry about it, because it’s a part of the culture.

Now... if you flake out without telling people, that is something will get mad about.

mlevental• 9 years ago

what do you mean by excuse? you realize that Kenya is a country on another continent, not an American state? the culture is completely different. for all we know being early is the thing that's a cultural taboo and needs to apologized for.

usrusr• 9 years ago

As long as “the West“ keeps getting blamed for all the hardships in other parts of the world "the West" has all the reason it needs to point out other confounding factors.

(And I'm genuinely curious, what role does not being an American state have in your argument? Is punctuality a federal matter?)

mhuffman• 9 years ago

you realize that Kenya is a country on another continent, not an American state?

True, but if they want to participate in global trade, don't you think that time would play an important role?

tfmatt• 9 years ago

Interesting. I really enjoyed the white guy speaking Swahili and his ability to switch mid-sentence. As a monoglot I am envy those with this ability. Reminds me of my favorite movie scene of all time, in Inglorious Basterds they are speaking German in a bar and an accent gives away an undercover spy. Right before things go south the aggressor and protagonist switch to a very refined English.

Lt. Archie Hicox: [In English] Well, if this is it, old boy, I hope you don't mind if I go out speaking the King's.
Major Dieter Hellstrom: [In English] By all means, Captain.

Riveting scene, wish I could find more like it.

stevoski• 9 years ago

Swahili is a language that native English speakers can typically pronounce well, as it only uses sounds that are present in most English dialects.

It is also easier for native English speakers to learn than most European languages.

extra882• 9 years ago

SPOILER it wasn’t his accent, it was how he showed the number three with his fingers.

jstanley• 9 years ago

And why is some white dude in Oregon complaining about Kenyans? (Unclear.)

It's not unclear, it's because he isn't happy about them not keeping time properly, which is what the entire article is about!

Punctuality is a sign of respect and goes a long way toward building trust and confidence. But must it be forced on the many Kenyans and other Africans who still believe in "African time"?

It doesn't need to be forced on anyone, but if they don't want to be respectful of others' time, or build trust and confidence, it's basically only themselves they're harming in the long run.

We have some of this in the UK as well. If people say a party starts at 7, they might actually mean "don't show up until 7.30". Personally I refuse to play such opaque games, and usually show up exactly at the time specified.

zulln• 9 years ago

If people say a party starts at 7, they might actually mean "don't show up until 7.30". Personally I refuse to play such opaque games, and usually show up exactly at the time specified.

This is another question, this would be more of social cues than respect imo. You are free to dislike this kind of 'game', but we should not confuse the issues.

carussell• 9 years ago

You focused on the word "game", but the key to the thought lies in the word "opaque".

tinco• 9 years ago

It's not just a game. Hosting a party takes some preparation, and preparation means things can take longer than expected. I sometimes arrive at parties at the moment they're scheduled to start and never has the host been anything but welcoming and gracious. But don't mistake, I'll be helping the host finish up the party decorations, set up the bowls of chips and arrange the beverages for the first 10-20 minutes.

Arriving to a party early is nonetheless a very good idea. It almost always means you get to intimately socialize with the host, a chance you might not get when the party has already started, especially if you're on the shy side of the spectrum.

Arriving early to parties is one of the tips in Leil Lowndes' "How to talk to anyone"[1] that I read and can recommend.

1] https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Anyone-Success-Relationships...

sandworm1012• 9 years ago

Party arrival times are an exercise in social standing. Those higher on the ladder come later, forcing those lower to wait for them. The ulimate example is "queen time". She is never on time and countless thousands regularly wait. The order that the royals arrive to an event signals thier rank. Our version of this is waiting for the cool people to show up.

toasterlovin2• 9 years ago

I use a similar tactic for professional networking at tech meet ups: I always offer to help clean up afterwards. Every single time it has resulted in me being on a first name basis with the group organizer (who is usually pretty well integrated into the tech community).

fapjacks• 9 years ago

In Hawaii we call it Hawaiian Time.

jondubois• 9 years ago

2 hours late is a bit extreme but I personally think that being late by up to 30 minutes is acceptable in most cases. I really don't mind at all if someone is 20 minutes late and I appreciate being given the same flexibility.

When it comes to real life and you factor in transport delays and other life factors it's not realistic to expect people to be exactly on time all the time.

The attitude in the west seems to be that if you arrive late then it's disrespectful. I feel that expecting me to be exactly on time to non-work events is even more disrespectful because the stress of trying to make it on time makes my cortisol levels go up and probably shortens my life expectancy.

comstock• 9 years ago

Obviously fine when there’s a reason. Drives me crazy when there isn’t.

For example, I’ve been asked to join a meeting (online), I join, organizer is 10mins late, spends another 5mins trying to get the conferencing system working. At this point, I’m generally super annoyed. As a programmer, there’s not much of value I can do with that 15mins. I’ve also lost another 5mins because I’ve made sure to log in early so I don’t keep you waiting. I do find it very disrespectful.

Veen• 9 years ago

Doesn't it bother you that when you're late you're wasting other people's time and causing them stress? If you know you can't commit to being on time, why agree to it in the first place? Just tell them you'll be there some time between X and Y.

It might be nice to live on "Kenyan time" but it's not economically or socially efficient. For me, waiting around for someone is wasted time that I would otherwise have spent doing something more productive or pleasurable.

EDIT: One of the skills I associate with being a fully functional adult is the ability to account for traffic problems, their personal life, and so on when they make plans. Obviously, unforeseen events can't be helped, so I'm not annoyed with someone who is late once or twice, but if they're persistently late I'll make a negative judgement about their ability to manage themselves properly.

watwut2• 9 years ago

Why would someone being late on party or other similar socual activity stressed you? Makes no sense to me. In general, many people tend to stress over things that should not elicit that much emotional response - nothing is in danger in this case and no harm is being done.

I agree with the opinion that if you demand much punctuality for non work events, to the point that you get angry at people being late for evening beer or party, then you are high maintennance friend.

As for your other questions, if it is generally known that agreement to party at four means "sometime after four" then it means exactly that. All participants know people show up after, so they are not bothered.

interfixus2• 9 years ago

Do that to me once without proper explanation and excuse, and consider yourself booted off any further dealings.

But then, I'm Scandinavian. Nine o'clock means nine o'clock, not five - or anything - past.

Symbiote2• 9 years ago

My most extreme version of this was a hiking group in Denmark.

The recommendation was to arrive by train. The event time was 13:00. On Sunday, the trains arrived at 12:32 and 13:02. Naturally, I chose the latter, and found everyone had left half an hour earlier since there was obviously noone else coming!

I've still not got the hang of what time to arrive in Denmark. I've made an effort not to be on "British time" for social events, which has made me 15-30 minutes earlier than the Danish guests as often as it's been the correct time.

bambataa• 9 years ago

I feel that expecting me to be exactly on time to non-work events is even more disrespectful because the stress of trying to make it on time makes my cortisol levels go up and probably shortens my life expectancy.

You could always have the best of both worlds by aiming privately to get there half an hour early. If you do run late you won’t be as stressed because you have a half hour buffer and if you are on time you can just chill somewhere until the appointed time. No cortisol either way.

solarkraft4• 9 years ago

I usually love it when some is late because it gives me some time to relax/prepare before meeting them. I don't think others in my culture (Germany) view it the same and can understand that it's very annoying if someone is late to an important event, however.

leyth• 9 years ago

I am from this region and have lived in Kenya for a while during childhood. Most people don’t really care about being punctual as life is pretty easy there. There is plenty of resource to go around, even with the rampant corruption. They have this interesting saying that goes:

“haraka haraka haina baraka”

"hurry hurry has no blessing."

All in all, they’re pretty good people, welcoming to all, including racist Europeans who until today continue to plunder the natural resources of the whole region.

rayiner• 9 years ago

You see this in India and Bangladesh too, especially with social events. One of the funny things is the connection between tardindess and cooking. Serving a typical western meal is difficult when inviting a bunch of people for dinner at 8 means people shuffling in from 9-10. But it’s no problem at all with a typical curry.

stareatgoats2• 9 years ago

Yea I saw this in Tanzania too. Our clockwork machinery society doesn't work there (yet). I'm not so convinced they have to adapt. Maybe it is us who, in a post clockwork machinery society need to (re)learn from them ... One insight that struck me when I was there: this doesn't apply to time only, it is really related to numbers in general. While we obsess with how long, tall far or wide things are (in numbers) these things don't seem to matter much to the average Tanzanian, and they get uneasy having to answer such questions and will give widely inaccurate answers if pressed. Maybe there is a latent anti-colonial attitude at heart that inspires this? or something else. It's worthy of a study nonetheless, as more and more people suffer stress-related problems in the industrialized world

caio1982• 9 years ago

I was in Tanzania (multiple cities) for a month and honestly I did not perceive this there, would you have any example of what happened to you there? Honest question, as I found them very respectful of my time, but perhaps it had more to do with the relation I had with them (as a tourist, as compared to actually living there).

stareatgoats2• 9 years ago

I could, having lived there for 5 years, but the linked article and other comments here provide the sufficient documentation don't you think?. I'm not saying it is a completely ubiquitous and homogeneous trait, and it is probably more pronounced in rural areas than in cities for example. Implicit in your question is however an assertion that I object to: that it would be a sign of disrespect to have a more rubbery notion of time than the one we are used to in our clockwork societies. I don't think so at all. This notion of 'respect' may be relevant here in the west, where everyone's life is measured in time, and everyone knows it to be so. I never felt it to be a sign of disrespect when the wedding started the day after the day it was supposed to, or when our guide up Kilimanjaro told us it was maybe five or ten minutes left to the top when it was in fact two hours. It was simply not so important to them.

spodek2• 9 years ago

The issue of poor time-keeping is not just a Kenyan problem. It is a problem in Ghana and throughout Africa (and of course in many other cultures as well).

Reading Affluence Without Abundance -- https://www.amazon.com/Affluence-Without-Abundance-Disappear... -- about hunting and gathering cultures in southern Africa, whose cultures endured 200,000 years, changed my views on our views on time, law, agriculture, growth, eating meat, and other things.

From a western perspective, loose time-keeping seems a problem.

A thought-provoking question: can you imagine a culture where such a perspective on time worked? And worked for orders of magnitude longer than your culture has existed?

extra882• 9 years ago

I can’t imagine such a culture producing modern medicine or becoming a space-faring one. Without modern medicine, the span of the average individual life is limited, without getting off this rock, the culture’s life is limited.

Oxitendwe• 9 years ago

How well did these cultures fare against the imperialist Europeans, exactly? How well do they fare against their more technologically advanced neighbors?

Incidentally, you may also wish to read "Industrial Society and Its Future" by former Berkeley mathematics professor Theodore Kaczynski.

spodek2• 9 years ago

Terribly. Agriculture is destroying their culture by taking the land they lived on, causing plants and animals to go extinct, imposing laws that don't fit, and spreading alcoholism, war, etc.

Agriculture seems more aggressive and destructive. People seem to work harder and enjoy life less.

It seems what makes one culture defeat another isn't necessarily what makes the people in the culture happy. Or what keeps the air, land, and water clean, or plants and animals from going extinct.

That's the Unabomber, right? I'm probably supposed to read between the lines from your mentioning him that way, but I didn't get the meaning.

dang• 9 years ago

We've banned this account for repeatedly using HN for ideological battle, which breaks the site guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

toasterlovin2• 9 years ago

As a counterpoint, here's an (IMO) more sober take on the supposed affluence of the bushmen:

http://quillette.com/2017/12/16/romanticizing-hunter-gathere...

commenter1• 9 years ago

I don't mind waiting, just be prepared to pay for the hours I wait.

Havoc2• 9 years ago

Or as it's more commonly know African time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_time

It's also noticeable in say check-out lines and even just walking. They simply do everything slower. (And that's not me being condescending - I grew up in Africa). I wonder if it's a factor in the overall economic progress of Africa.

solarkraft4• 9 years ago

Same thought. It sure is more relaxed and nicer, but how can you have a well functioning society this way?

paloaltokid• 9 years ago

That seems totally contingent on your definition of “well functioning”. Maybe it would be healthy for us to recalibrate our cultural notions of well functioning? That seems to me to be the gist of what many other comments here are saying.

Havoc2• 9 years ago

how can you have a well functioning society this way?

Well enough I suppose.

It's only really noticeable from an outsider perspective. I never noticed that the cashiers are slow while growing up in Africa. Only after spending a couple years in Europe could I see the difference.

Anyway if this sort of thing interests you then check out the book below. Various interesting musings about West vs Africa - and written before a time when everything had to be so politically correct

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_of_the_Sun

jschwartzi• 9 years ago

This is also a thing when doing business in Mexico. I've had to wait up to 2 hours for a teleconference to start. Often in Mexico City the traffic is so bad that it takes hours to get anywhere. Couple that with a business culture where meetings take as much time as is needed, and you are frequently left waiting.

henrygrew• 9 years ago

This is a problem in multiple cultures and nations not only kenya, and not all kenyans have this attitude towards time. A majority appreciate the value of punctuality

ggm• 9 years ago

My mother used to tell a joke about a guy who hung around in cairo every 1st Jan because he'd said he would meet his brother then but forgot to say which year.

She was born just outside Lesotho (Basutoland as was) and I think the concept of BMT was pretty widespread in Africa.

BrandoElFollito• 9 years ago

We French are not the kings of punctuality. When you have a conference call, people are often minutes (5-10) late.

I hate it and start my calls sharp, even if there is nobody yet. People who join late are on their own to catch up and I make exactly zero efforts to bring them in.

After a few calls almost everyone is there when the call starts.

Some people complained that they cannot switch from one meeting to another instantly, to what I usually reply that they accepted my meeting and that they can arrange with the other one (which probably started late) to finish a few minutes early. I also accommodated them with 5 past the hour starts, which is probably the easiest solution.

This is to say that there is hope for time keeping.

Under 'Kenyan Time,' You're Expected To Arrive, Oh, Whenever

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