The War Against Pope Francis

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/oct/27/the-war-against-pope-francis

by dcow • 9 years ago

103 158 9 years ago

pavlov2• 9 years ago

It's kind of interesting to read Breitbart comments on any article related to Pope Francis. A few posters are convinced he is literally the Antichrist. Many others feel the Pope is not Catholic (which of course is impossible by definition).

In 1998, a small group of American Catholic separatists elected one of their own as Pope Pius XIII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_Pulvermacher

I wonder if something similar is around the corner. The mood in America certainly has long been towards creation of shadow structures that ensure you don't have to meet with anyone who disagrees politically.

achamayou2• 9 years ago

There was pushback after Vatican II, resulting in quite a few splinter groups, even in Europe (eg. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X).

Unless Pope Francis makes significant changes officially, I’m not sure this would happen again, regardless of his popularity.

markvdb• 9 years ago

There is still a lot of activity around the Piux X society. They're allying themselves with partners like the Parti de la France, Jean-Marie Le Pen and friends, and organising themselves around organisations like Civitas[0], the "European party" Coalition pour la Vie et la Famille [1], etcetera. The Front National is not sufficiently right wing and conservative for many of the people around them, and they at least reek of antisemitism...

Have a look at how Civitas and the "Coalition pour la Vie et la Famille" grabbed 500k€ of European parliament subsidies for its "European policital party" with as members a hodgepodge of a Greek neonazi MP, a Slovak neofascist MP, a Polish extreme right wing populist, ... and one Latvian social democrat [2].

But now I'm really starting to digress from the topic I guess...

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civitas_(movement) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_pour_la_Vie_et_la_Fa... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihails_Zem%C4%BCinskis

riffraff• 9 years ago

Many others feel the Pope is not Catholic (which of course is impossible by definition).

interestingly enough this could make sense (although quite likely not in the case of Breitbart commenters).

For example, the eastern orthodox church, like the roman church, defines itself as "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic", so an eastern orthodox christian may well refer to itself as "catholic" while denying the Pope is.

This seem to be the reason that in some places people often refer to "catholic" as "roman catholic".

acqq• 9 years ago

Looking at the original meanings of the words: catholic means simply "universal" (as in "in charge of the Universe") and orthodox means "having the right belief" (right as opposed to wrong, not to the left). Only the later use of the words in some specific parts of the world gave some new (today often automatically assumed) meanings (created in the lands of their old opponents). The "orthodox" churches are proud to have "the right belief" and they don't think about the newer less positive meanings. They also consider themselves, of course "universal" because they used the very term before the schism too.

Unsurprisingly both modern "Catholics" and "Orthodox" churches claim that their influence is "worldwide" and that they are right.

Aqwis• 9 years ago

This seem to be the reason that in some places people often refer to "catholic" as "roman catholic".

That's not really why, is it -- it's because there are also the Eastern Catholic (as opposed to Eastern Orthodox) churches that recognize the Pope as the leader of the Church while using different rites (including allowing married men to be priests).

emmelaich• 9 years ago

while denying the Pope is ..

So you probably can't use the old "Is the Pope a Catholic?" line anymore.

Back to the bears.

jacquesm3• 9 years ago

Pope Francis is a good guy leading an utterly corrupt institution. In the US there are many voices about the 'deep state' trying hard to subvert Trump (in my opinion a good thing). Within the Catholic Church the same phenomenon at work is doing everything it can to halt progress and to stay firmly stuck in the past.

Francis probably won't live long enough to cement his legacy in such a way that it can not be undone. I have mixed feelings about this, on the one hand I'd like for the Church to take a more modern approach to their interaction with their subjects because they are causing a tremendous amount of grief in people's lives.

At the same time I can't wait to see their end (most likely not within my lifetime) and the harder the line they draw the more people will come to their senses and abandon this group of lying, disconnected old men.

gaius• 9 years ago

Pope Francis is a good guy leading an utterly corrupt institution

How does a "good guy" reach the top of a "corrupt institution", passing all the gates along the way, presumably guarded by utterly corrupt people?

jonah4• 9 years ago

Because the majority of his electors (the College of Cardinals) are also good guys.

(The article places conservative dissenters at the recent synods at 1/4 - 1/3.)

js8• 9 years ago

Because they are so corrupt that they can't agree which one of them should be the boss, so they choose an idealist as a compromise, in hope they will control him.

bitL3• 9 years ago

This is a pretty simplistic view. "Good guy" is a non-telling statement. If you are leading an institution that enforces certain values for millenia, believing they are eternal, that not following them would lead you to permanent eternal suffering, and then you suddenly backtrack on them, or at least make the impression that you are contradicting what your predecessors lived by, it's inevitable there will be a problem. If you first enforced strict rules in dealing with transgressors and suddenly are more lenient to things historically considered abominations, won't people you lead that followed previous teachings, disadvantaging them profoundly, feel betrayed? That's absolutely logical and obviously risks your whole organization falls apart. Try telling some Muslim they can drink alcohol freely or some Jew they don't need to be circumcised. Or tell a mathematician that ZFC axioms are wrong and all of math cannot be trusted, and watch the reaction :-D

Gupie7• 9 years ago

The Catholic church used to teach that all non-catholics would be damned to "permanent eternal suffering". They have "backtracked" on this and there has not been any resultant problems.

jacquesm3• 9 years ago

Try telling some Muslim they can drink alcohol freely or some Jew they don't need to be circumcised.

And you think my views are pretty simplistic?

gadders4• 9 years ago

I'm not a believer, but you do have to wonder what the role of a church is. Is it to keep with their dogma as originally laid down, or to adapt that to current cultural norms that change over time?

Arguments can be made for either side. People are free to leave churches who hold views they disagree with.

jonah4• 9 years ago

And that's the the issue at hand. Francis wants a larger, more merciful Church while his predecessor, Benedict, was on record preferring a smaller more conservative Church. We'll see how it goes - large, old institutions move slowly.

adventured• 9 years ago

In the US there are many voices about the 'deep state' trying hard to subvert Trump (in my opinion a good thing).

The deep state is no longer attempting to subvert Trump. A soft coup has been performed for purposes of stability, Trump is now being directly managed by the deep state. He'll give them what they want, so long as he can be handled he gets to stay. The Mueller investigation is now a lame duck, it's for show, nothing will come of it other than a few meaningless trophies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-generals-have-tr...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/military-leaders-con...

erikb3• 9 years ago

Why do people consistently get convinced by two or three news paper articles that someone is good because the report is good? You cannot become leader of a corrupt organisation without being corrupt yourself. There's simply not enough wiggle room at the top, where everybody wants to get to. He is probably not the least corrupt but the best at being corrupt without being discovered.

And if you see how he leads this "war" that the article is about you can see he has the skills. The reason he's not living in luxury may be something like that he loves power more than money.

martin1b• 9 years ago

Your comment is full of misunderstanding and sprinkled with hate. How can you say 'utterly corrupt institution'? Yes there are corrupt individuals, and perhaps, even corrupt sects. However, EVERY organization the massive size of the RCC has this and it is caused by the human fault, NOT the church itself (read about Peter). You most definitely will not see it's end in your lifetime as the RCC has lasted 2000 years and will last much longer. 'Halt progress and stay firmly stuck in the past'.. How can you say this? Do you have ANY experience or facts? As a Catholic, I can tell you the church is CONSTANTLY looking to appeal to modern society. However, it does this in an articulated fashion. Just because society has taken a stance on given topics doesn't mean those stances are good for mankind. This is why the church leadership reviews stances in full detail. To move past the hype and determine true effect on the person affected. That is the goal of the church. To help each person achieve TRUE happiness and peace. Yes, most of the RCC members are imperfect. Myself included. However, all of us in the RCC are striving to be better people and to help others do the same.

_Codemonkeyism• 9 years ago

[Removed]

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC26• 9 years ago

Why would you possibly want to stay with him, given that the defining goal of the institution is to keep you stuck in a broken epistemology regardless?

Void_• 9 years ago

Please keep in mind that this article is full of inaccurate information torn out of context.

The gay situation is a good example.

Pope Francis has shown love and understanding towards LGBT group, just like shows towards any other group of people experiencing hardship.

He genuinely loves others, like most of Catholic priests and nuns do - that’s why they chose the carreer path of serving others.

I’m saying most, because there are exceptions and sadly we only read about the exceptions.

Pope Francis never said anything that wouldn’t be 100% aligned with the teaching of church. Never. He has shown sympathy and love, nothing more.

brian-armstrong3• 9 years ago

The wider issue, of course, is that the entire dogma is a fiction without any basis in reality. Arguing over direction to preserve attendance may be pointless if you've built an organization around a fairy tale.

aaron-lebo2• 9 years ago

It has some basis in reality and affects some 1 billion lives. I'm sure you believe only 100% true, non dogmatic things. Your comment is pretentious and shallow.

brian-armstrong3• 9 years ago

The fact that it affects a billion people and is built on falsehoods should be cause for concern.

cjsuk2• 9 years ago

Doesn’t mean it’s wrong!

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC26• 9 years ago

Whether it has some basis in reality is besides the point. The defining characteristic of a religious institution is that it promotes faith as an epistemology, thus explicitly encouraging people to engage in more irrationality.

cjsuk2• 9 years ago

Slight correction: well funded, tax immune, sovereign, pyramid shaped fairy tale circling the drain. Even CoE here in the U.K. are running hooky hedge funds.

As always, money and power. At least ultra-capitalists are honest about their motivations.

torstenvl• 9 years ago

Organizations themselves are fictions. Y Combinator, for example, doesn't actually exist in any sort of real sense. If they suddenly lost all their assets, the fictionalized entity would still exist. Nothing that actually exists in the physical world, nothing you can prove the existence of scientifically, is coextensive with the entity known as Y Combinator Management, LLC. It exists only to the extent it is written that it exists, and that people believe it.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC26• 9 years ago

Nothing that actually exists in the physical world, nothing you can prove the existence of scientifically, is coextensive with the entity known as Y Combinator Management, LLC.

You might be surprised, but brains and court records and all of that are actually physical and perfectly accessible to scientific investigation.

hectorlorenzo2• 9 years ago

Ironically, you are preaching to the choir, and not adding much to the conversation. No wonder atheists are the new vegans.

mpermar• 9 years ago

Isn't reality a fiction either?

TeMPOraL5• 9 years ago

Arguing over direction to preserve attendance may be pointless if you've built an organization around a fairy tale.

Doesn't matter. What other commenters here try to point out as well, a lot - if not most - organizations are built around one fiction or another. Some examples:

- Fanclubs, fandoms, convent attendees - those are literally communities built around fairy tales.

- Programming language communities - built around ever-changing artifacts of human imagination, they too have to deal with possible change of direction impacting attendance.

- Political parties - organized around some people's understanding of some ideas, + shitton of meaningless slogans that everyone interprets how they like. Exist mostly to self-perpetuate, as evidenced whenever any established party has anything meaningful to say or do; suddenly the official program takes second place towards what helps electability.

- Companies - the ultimate bubbles of meaninglessness, they in principle - and often in practice - exist as an ever charging group of people bound together by will to make money on ever changing product for ever changing market, lead by ever changing board.

I'd add nationalities, as there's plenty of crazy fiction going on in there, but they're at least usually bound geographically, so there's that.

The point being, many if not most organizations are built around some fairy tale or other, and what an organization is built around rarely matters to anything. What matters is how strong the community is, and that's pretty much purely social factor, without any actual dependence on objective reality.

brian-armstrong3• 9 years ago

The difference being that religions lack the comfortable layer of detached irony that a modern fandom has. Star Trek fandoms don't insist that Star Trek is the genesis of human life and the only source of truth.

majewsky• 9 years ago

Fanclubs, fandoms, convent attendees - those are literally communities built around fairy tales.

Thinking about it, the fandom that I'm part of shows quite some resemblance to a religious organization.

builditand2• 9 years ago

You found some similarities between some groups of people. This just shows that some beings like to get together, based sometimes on common interests. Also bananas share 50% of its DNA with humans. So?

What's more relevant is the differences. Funclubs' purpose is fun, I presume. Programming is serving humanity, I have no doubt. Political parties are in a way like football, a gentlemen game played by thieves. Companies are far from meaninglessness, they serve clear organizational and legal and taxes etc purposes.

Religions (edit: I'm familiar with) are built on deception to control people, they are not like fanclubs, programming, companies.

jonah4• 9 years ago

There's a bit of imprecision near the beginning of the article of which clarification is only hinted at by the end and might be missed by those not familiar with the details.

"Last year, one cardinal, backed by a few retired colleagues, raised the possibility of a formal declaration of heresy – the willful rejection of an established doctrine of the church, a sin punishable by excommunication. Last month, 62 disaffected Catholics, ...published an open letter that accused Francis of seven specific counts of heretical teaching.

"To accuse a sitting pope of heresy is the nuclear option in Catholic arguments. Doctrine holds that the pope cannot be wrong when he speaks on the central questions of the faith; so if he is wrong, he can’t be pope."

Popes write and say a lot of things but only a special few are elevated to the level of doctrine.

Pope Francis' footnotes on divorce aren't an official proclamation. (Though the article hints that he's working in that direction.)

Infallible[0] statements defining doctrine are made Ex Cathedra - From the Chair of St. Peter[1] which he hasn't done. So, in reality the conservative faction are protesting something which hasn't yet happened.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedr...

gadders4• 9 years ago

There was an interesting podcast on the BBC World Service that covered the letter and whether the Pope is really Catholic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csv1c3

hydrox24• 9 years ago

The conservative faction are protesting something which hasn't yet happened.

This is a fact, but not really true in the sense you mean it.

The conservative faction were rubbed the wrong way by the footnote. The issue is that while it is not a proclamation of doctrine, it has been pointed to as justification for some German and Latin American bishops' administering of communion to the divorced.

The real problem is that Francis has remained silent when asked for clarification on the footnote, and whether or not it changed doctrine. Clarification was first requested officially (though privately) by a couple of bishops, and when no response was given for several months, those bishops published the letter to put further pressure on Francis to issue a clarification one way or the other[0]. The letter reads as a very polite request for clarification.

This went without response. In addition, there is some evidence that bishops have been privately directed to interpret the footnote in the 'heretical' sense. The evidence for this is laid out in the filial correction itself (see [1]).

The most recent document, referenced in the Guardian article as accusing Francis of spreading heresies, can be read here[1]. I would encourage anyone reading this to do so.

The document, along with the rest of the 'protesting' happening across the conservative side of the spectrum, isn't so much in response to a change in doctrine via dictum, but instead a response to the lack of clarification, and Francis' allowing (or even encouraging) a de facto change in doctrine.

[0] http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/full-text-ca...

[1] http://www.correctiofilialis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/...

erikb3• 9 years ago

But then, by implied results, OP is also correct. The reason they are pissed by getting no clarification is because they don't want the "heretical" interpretation to get any foothold. And the reason the pope doesn't answer that request is because he wants the "heretical" interpretation to succeed without himself being excommunicated. If he says "yep, that's what I mean" he starts to have a big problem. But nobody can punish him for not clarifying a footnote. But if there wouldn't be the underlying conflict of interest the request and non-answer for clarification wouldn't be a topic people would think about.

The difference between you and OP is merely the question of which layer is discussed. The layer of facts or the layer of meaning.

jonah4• 9 years ago

Another point of clarity is that Annulments are easier to get than is implied by the article. It's a process, but you don't have to be wealthy or powerful.

(As an aside, the whole concept of declaring a previous marriage invalid - for various reasons - seems like it's a hack in the HN sense of the word.)

sigi452• 9 years ago

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Live will continue on our world whatever Pope Francis is doing or anyone else in the catholic church.

erikb3• 9 years ago

Not 100% false, but you could put that argument under any HN discussion, which makes it rather pointless in itself. If that's a strong opinion of yours consider not reading HN. ;-)

sigi452• 9 years ago

Perhaps but most of those topics i read here, are not about some Pope.

jlebrech2• 9 years ago

Pope Francis shits all over Catholicism yet in the same breath defends Islam.

If you follow the Bible to the letter you get Hasidic Jews or Catholics, if you follow the Quran to the letter you get radical islam.

pjc50• 9 years ago

Biblical literalism is a characteristic of some Protestant groups, not Catholicism; the treatment of the Apocrypha is relevant to this.

ssijak• 9 years ago

If you follow bible to the letter (including old testament) you get Hitler.

jlebrech2• 9 years ago

that's not true, if you follow Martin Luther you do.

NiklasMort• 9 years ago

Pope Francis is what Bernie Sanders would be as US President.

mathw• 9 years ago

A Catholic friend of mine really does not like what Pope Francis is doing. Really, really does not like it.

I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening (it's a very small group playing instruments very few people can play). But it worries me, because as far as I can tell Pope Francis is quite keen on being nice to people, and showing mercy and forgiveness. I thought those were central tenets of Christian teaching.

Of course, as an atheist, I can't really comment, other than the slightly surreal nature of all these people worrying about interpretations of a fictional document and inspirations from a non-existent entity.

In fact, this kind of thing could be taken as further evidence that God is a fiction.

camillomiller• 9 years ago

My Grandma, back in Italy, despises him too, but still respects him. She has his picture on her bedside table, nonetheless, because of course he's still the Pope. Her rationale is simple: the Pope should be a detached quasi-divine figure: from her old Italian woman point of view he's pope-ing wrong. But again, he's still the Pope, so "he must be right".

b0rsuk4• 9 years ago

Your grandma has class. Poles who don't like Francis (i.e. most of them) don't have a photo of him, and don't respect him. When he was on a pilgrimage in Poland, church-related media focused on everything except what he was saying.

ekianjo2• 9 years ago

The Bible is not a fictional document if that is what you were implying. Its contents may be, but as a book we have copies dating back to AD 700 at least without major differences. It is an historical artifact in itself.

CaptainZapp• 9 years ago

Being a historical artifact doesn't rule out that it's a fictional document.

dctoedt9• 9 years ago

In fact, this kind of thing could be taken as further evidence that God is a fiction.

OTOH, it's been joked that there must be a God, because how else could the Church have survived nearly 2,000 years of all this [stuff]? I know, I know, the joke doesn't withstand critical scrutiny, but still ....

Riffing on that subject at the risk of going off-topic: The existence of some kind of Creator finds at least some support in the continuing evolution of the universe from the so-called Big Bang into local areas of greater and greater complexity. (This is a variation on the Weak Anthropic Principle [0].)

This continuing cosmic evolution seems consistent with the [EDIT:] conjecture that our universe is part of some kind of Great Project, in which it could be said that we're project workers — as Lutheran theologian Philip Hefner put it, we're created co-creators.

Personally I find this conjecture to be exciting and awe-inspiring — but only to the extent that it can be kept evidence-based [2].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hefner

[2] Self-cite: http://www.questioningchristian.com/2007/02/another_way_to_.... — see also the comments to that piece.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC26• 9 years ago

That seems consistent with the notion that our universe is (at least part of) some kind of Great Project

Being consistent with something is not an argument for that thing. There is an infinite supply of mutually inconsistent hypotheses you can trivially generate for anything that's yet unknown that are consistent with what is known. Universe-creating unicorn-pixies that like drinking coffee are consistent with the big bang as well (a big bang happens when they drinkg coffee!). That doesn't tell you anything.

jhanschoo• 9 years ago

The problem with this conjecture is that even as the Churches try to keep orthodoxy, the varieties of Abrahamic faiths keep schism-ing into different faiths exponentially due to incompatible doctrines, which is on par with what we would expect with opinion not based on evidence; compare that against natural philosophy.

zakk9• 9 years ago

I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening

If you ask respectfully, I see now reason why you won't get a polite reply. Maybe you should avoid the following smug remarks, after age 16 they don't sound as good:

other than the slightly surreal nature of all these people worrying about interpretations of a fictional document and inspirations from a non-existent entity

Anyway, since we are at it and you seem genuinely interested in details, I will give you my personal details. They may not match what you friend believes, but many Catholics have similar feelings.

As someone who left the Catholic Church because of Bergoglio, I must remind you that the Catholic faith is not just about mercy, forgiveness, kindness. I know many merciful and kind people who are not Catholic. So, when establishing a link between mercy and kindness and the Catholic faith, you have to keep in mind a few points:

- The behavior of a Christian is a consequence of some metaphysical beliefs, of following Christ's teaching and the Holy Bible. It would be an error to consider these consequences as the main trait of a Christian. As the name implies, main trait of a Christian is the belief in Christ.

- It has been reaffirmed many times by the Church that mercy and kindness alone are not enough to save your soul, believing in Jesus Christ is also required.

- Also, the Gospel (Matthew 6,1) advises Christian as follows: “Be careful not to do good deeds in front of other people. Don’t do those deeds to be seen by others. If you do, your Father in heaven will not reward you."

This said, let me come to why I don't like Pope Francis. He's kind, and he's merciful, but he's way too vague about the pillars of the faith.

For instance, in one of the first interviews after he was elected Pope, when asked: "Is there a unique vision of what is the Good?", he replied "Everyone has its own vision of what is Good and what is Bad. And we must encourage him to follows whatever he believes is Good".

This is not Christian. Christianity is about a guy, Jesus Christ, who came to say what is the Good. (John 14,6 "I am the way, the truth and the life")

Pope Francis also repeatedly stated that "there is no Catholic God, there is just one God". Again, this is in contrast with two millennia of teachings, and in particular with the Church dogma that there cannot be salvation outside the Christian faith.

One of the most sacred Christian texts, the Athanasian Creed, begins with the following sentence: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."

I could show you many other example of Pope Francis's sloppy statements about the pillars of the Christian faith, but I hope you understand a bit better why many Christian, genuinely, do not like him.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC26• 9 years ago

One of the most sacred Christian texts, the Athanasian Creed, begins with the following sentence: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."

Maybe you should avoid such obviously fallacious reasons to accept something as true, after age 16 that doesn't sound as good.

dctoedt9• 9 years ago

This is not Christian. Christianity is about a guy, Jesus Christ, who came to say what is the Good. (John 14,6 "I am the way, the truth and the life")

That's the view of Jesus' later followers, not of the man himself.

The John passage isn't especially reliable. [0]

Also, you're forgetting what Matthew and Luke both reported that Jesus said about just what's needed for salvation:

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

</blockquote>

(From Luke 10:25-37, emphasis added, footnotes omitted [1].)

[0] http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/05/synoptic_christ.... (self-cite) Scroll down to "Problem: The Passage of Time." Tl;dr: From what's known about the author of the Fourth Gospel, his self-promoting account, decades after the facts and at odds with other accounts, simply isn't credible.

[1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A25-37 (the parable of the Good Samaritan)

tim333• 9 years ago

I hadn't heard of the Athanasian Creed or know much about Catholicism, that's interesting.

It always seems to be that Pope Francis is much closer to Jesus's example than the Catholic church's tradition. Jesus was in the Bible stories, modest and tolerant and said things like "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." The Catholic church seemed to go a bit away from that with ostentatious wealth, intolerance and the like so I can see why some of followers would be against Francis.

aoloe• 9 years ago

IANAT (... i am not a theologian... but i've been surrounded by them for almost all my life)

"there is no Catholic God, there is just one God"

I've been told that this is one of the main changes that resulted from Vatican II: there is only one God and it's shared by the whole world population. On the other side, the Catholics pretend to have the "right" way to praise that common God. (but that's not what you were saying)

Francis seems to be in line with the official doctrine. (and from the article this seems to be a constant in his actions)

One of the most sacred Christian texts, the Athanasian Creed

Never heard of that text. And a quick visit to Wikipedia tells me:

"Today, the Athanasian Creed is rarely used even in the Western Church."

After those two remarks, I don't think your statements are in way representative for a common way to understand the Catholic religion nor for the official Vatican position.

b0rsuk4• 9 years ago

Fiction or not, religion has very real influence on the world. I'm an atheist, but religion interests me as a force that shapes societies and culture.

As a general rule, the notion of conscience is alien to people of Africa. They don't feel guilty, they only feel regret if they're caught. Now Africa is vast and this is a big oversimplification, especially that large populations of Africa are now Christian, but conscience is still an imported good in Africa and not deeply rooted in its culture. Is it a coincidence Africa suffers from corruption ?

mping• 9 years ago

I am amazed to see this comment in 2017. Wtf??

Saying Africans have dark skin is a big oversimplification, you are basically saying that they are morally inferior.

Have you ever been to Africa? Have African relatives? Know African people? I am ashamed by your comment. I invite you to provide some kind of anecdote or proof for your statement. Otherwise don't spread ignorance please.

falcolas• 9 years ago

Is it a coincidence Africa suffers from corruption ?

So, what's the US' excuse? Europe's? China's? India's?

I hate the "correlation is not causation" trope that's trotted out constantly, but it really applies here.

__BrianDGLS__• 9 years ago

As a Catholic this is news to me. I like the Pope, thought he was good. In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him.

I feel this article is trying to "Stir up a storm" with sensational language. There is little behind this in my opinion.

0x4f3759df• 9 years ago

What Francis Really Believes (4th Edition) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjmveYw0tE

labster2• 9 years ago

I can only assume you're in a bubble, then. Perhaps me too. But Francis' actions only make sense in the context of meeting stiff resistance from some parts of the church, therefore by Occam's razor someone must be doing the resisting. Any institution as large and old as the Church (and there are very few peers) has a huge amount of institutional inertia, and being brought in specifically to be a reformer was bound to earn him some enemies.

masklinn• 9 years ago

As a Catholic this is news to me. I like the Pope, thought he was good. In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him.

It's possible that the catholics you hang out with are not the most conservative factions (e.g. the ones who still gnash teeth over Vatican II), which are the ones fuming over Francis.

Toboe• 9 years ago

In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him.
I feel this article is trying to "Stir up a storm" with sensational language. There is little behind this in my opinion.

While i can't speak about the part of catholics you know, nor about conservative wings of the catholic church (and the size of said wing), there are atleast some US-Conservatives claiming to be catholic with grievances about the pope:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/04/pope-francis-is-ca...

b0rsuk4• 9 years ago

I invite you to visit Poland. One of the most - nominally - catholic countries.

A few months ago there was a radio show, with a quiz. "What town was the Pope born in ?". Naturally, Wadowice, because there's implicit understanding that John Paul II from Poland was the Pope. People rarely even mention Francis except to rant on him. There's full-blown denial. Most catholics seem to pretend Francis doesn't exist.

Poles like to brag how Catholic they are, but they're Catholic in name. Most don't follow teachings, they just went to church to avoid ostracism. Case in point: there was a media outrage when a prominent figure said Jesus was a refugee. When my brother was in primary school around 30 years ago, he was regularly beaten by his peers because he didn't want to attend religion lessons (in school, no less).

People bend over backwards to justify their xenophobic, homophobic, misogynist etc. behavior.

A major hierarch in Polish Church, Tadeusz Rydzyk, is 70% businessman 30% priest. He commands his own "schism" while pretending he is catholic. He has much influence among old, helpless, angry people. Despite blatantly engaging in politics (like many other priests), numerous instances of hate speech, antisemitism and other transgressions he remains in power, and Church doesn't expel him. The word is they deem him useful, because - although highly controversial - people listen to him. Geothermal energy, media schools, his own TV, and especially the radio station. His total income was recently estimated as 55,000,000 PLN (15.1184 million U.S. dollars). He's 88th on the list of the wealthiest Poles. And since autumn 2015 he received 26.5M + 139.6K + 250K + 710K + 200K + 105.2K + nearly 3M + 70.6K + 59.3K + 120K +11.6K + 216K PLN from various government institutions. Under various pretexts, like payment for coaching of judges, for his media school, newspapers. That's not counting tenders he regularly wins, or land he (and other priests) often buy at 10% or so of nominal value. His radio station doesn't run on advertisments, except ads of his own products and services. It runs on donations. And he constantly complains how little money he has.

https://oko.press/o-rydzyk-twierdza-ze-dostajemy-miliony-a-g... (polish)

Teachings of Jesus are hard to live by and demand self-sacrifice. Relatively poor (to the rest of Europe) and thus highly materialistic, envious, petty Poles don't like that. Love thy enemy ? If someone hits you, expose the other cheek ? Charity ? NO WAY. Once upon a time I had a twisted ankle, and walked slowly with crutches. Suddenly a car stopped by and the driver offered to give me a ride. Then it hit me - I've never received a similar offer before. You see, the driver spoke in English. It's hard to notice something is missing in your country until you've seen the difference.

singularity2001• 9 years ago

Interesting, in my circles he is regarded almost as a hero.

labster2• 9 years ago

As a Lutheran celebrating the quinicentennial of the 95 Theses this week, it always surprises me how far behind the times the Roman Catholic leadership can be. They're still dealing with some of the original causes of the Reformation, including celibacy, divorce, favoritism to the rich, and worship in the vernacular.

Jorge Bergoglio is a good person. I feel like he hears the Holy Spirit, unlike the members of the curia from the "no new rules" camp. But I'm okay with new rules, being a member of the original revolutionary church. My group still has a lot of the old rules, but the rules should never get in the way of bringing a person into the grace of God.

Latin mass is pretty neat, and makes for some great canting opportunities, but if you give it to a group of people who can't understand, how does that open a person's heart? How does excluding people who sin make sense in the context of everyone being a sinner? Denying reality is like denying a part of Creation; denying access to the community drives people into the ranks of the atheists. And hey, at least they don't use faith as a cudgel against reality.

So, I wish Pope Francis the best of luck, and I hope that he can bring his branch of the church into a more loving, contemporary group.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC26• 9 years ago

As a Lutheran celebrating the quinicentennial of the 95 Theses this week, it always surprises me how far behind the times the Roman Catholic leadership can be.

Your sect still subscribes to faith as an epistemology, right? Given that that is pretty well known to be an unreliable method to obtain knowledge, and you still subscribe to it, how can you be surprised that other people are equally behind on minor details that you happen to get right?

b0rsuk4• 9 years ago

It shouldn't surprise you. Catholic branch is the most orthodox branch of Christianity. It's the one that resisted Reformation and all other attempts at change. Times change, so at least some teachings of a religion should change with them.

YouAreGreat• 9 years ago

his support for migrants, his attacks on global capitalism

As only one of these can be sincere given the other, the commenters who suspect that the Pope is just very good at looking like the good guy are probably right.

72deluxe• 9 years ago

"In the years immediately after the council, nuns discarded their habits, priests discovered women (more than 100,000 left the priesthood to marry)"

This position on marriage for priests is intriguing. Even Peter was married - see Matthew 8:14 (why would Peter have a mother-in-law if he wasn't married...?). And why does Paul warn about people who will say that you cannot marry? (1 Timothy 4:3) ???

"in this struggle it has been forced into the defence of an untenable absolutist position, whereby ..... all sex outside one lifelong marriage" is banned. "As Francis recognises, that’s not how people actually behave."

This is not true. Just because many people do not stick to their beliefs does not make the beliefs invalid, nor does it mean you should adopt the common mis-practice.

Like the Oxford versus Collins dictionary - Oxford tells you what the word means and how it should be used; Collins tells you how people typically use it (which might be an abuse of the word or incorrect usage). I'd rather go with Oxford.

Who of us likes ignoring our programming language specs and then argue that the compiler is wrong?

BTW I am not Catholic.

The War Against Pope Francis

Related Stories