China temporarily shuts down thousands of factories in pollution crackdown

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-shuts-down-tens-of-thousands-of-factories-in-widespread-pollution-crackdown/ar-AAtZIqD

by kimsk112 • 9 years ago

211 134 9 years ago

msn.com

alexandercrohde• 9 years ago

I have to commend China for taking drastic action in response to their drastic problem.

As I understand it, it's actually very feasible to apply a carbon filter to the smokestack of a factory itself.

justicezyx2• 9 years ago

Totalitarianism does have some benefits.

polotics• 9 years ago

[citation needed] How is applying the rule of law totalitarian?

hangonhn• 9 years ago

Totalitarianism always had its benefits but the population is left with no backup mechanism if the group in charge happens to be really bad at their jobs and/or their interests do not line up with those of the population. An efficient government can be a really bad thing when its goals does not align with the population's.

One advantage of democracy is that there is a mechanism for peaceful transition of power if the current leadership isn't working. Without this, a country has to resort to armed rebellion.

China has historically legitimized armed popular rebellion with the concept of the "mandate of heaven". When an armed popular rebellion topples a dynasty, the previous dynasty is said to have lost its mandate of heaven and the successful rebel leader is said to have gained it. This is why China has historically had dynastic cycles. Democracy is a possible solution for escaping the cycle of often disastrous and very bloody armed rebellions.

seanmcdirmid5• 9 years ago

It reduces efficiency and you are screwed (out of business) if you do it but your competitor doesn't.

ourmandave• 9 years ago

Sounds like someone in China has finally seen the documentary _Godzilla vs the Smog Monster_ and doesn't want to end up like 1970's Japan.

Especially since they don't even have a Godzilla protecting the shore line.

justicezyx2• 9 years ago

China's push to clean energy and advanced manufacturing to reduce pollution dated back at least to 2003, because I saw people investigating natural gas in an area that can produce high quality coals really cheap (Shanxi province).

adamnemecek• 9 years ago

China has been trying hard to change it's image recently.

tristanj4• 9 years ago

China's central propaganda department spends $10bn+ per year on overseas propaganda, it's no surprise that money is going somewhere.

komali23• 9 years ago

Well, I'd want to see a source for this, but my personal experience doesn't make it hard to believe that they'd be pumping out externally-facing propaganda.

That being said, the changes can be felt on the ground level. Public dialog is changing about climate change.

whooshee5• 9 years ago

USA, Russia, Japan, UK are all doing this kind of things, but the West would rephrase themselves as cultural exchange or blessedness transmitters just like they named their acts on Tahuantinsuyo, Congo etc as civilizing.

dspillett• 9 years ago

It isn't just an image problem: the massive pollution issue China has will, if it remains unchecked, have a significant effect on economic growth due to health issues in the urban population that is driving the industrial sectors. On a less altruistic note, it is also threatening the health of the powers-that-be.

mtgx• 9 years ago

China is not trying to change its image (at least not in a real way). It's trying to:

1) solve a real problem with pollution in its own country. Pretty sure its "image" or even the Paris treaty is secondary to that.

2) By pushing for renewable power in its own country, it's essentially funding its own renewable energy industry, which could end-up way ahead of everyone else in the long-term, in both prices and technology.

So it's not about the image, it's about getting ahead through renewable energy and for their elites not having to breathe coal day in and day out in China's largest cities.

austinl• 9 years ago

China is also pushing 1 in 5 cars sold to be electric by 2025. The government definitely seems to be taking the problem seriously.

(https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/business/china-hastens-th...)

tw043• 9 years ago

At least someone is... it's a sad, sad day when the supposed "leaders of the free world" insist on burying their heads in the sand WRT: global warming. Even if we ARE wrong, acting as if reducing pollution is a bad thing is just silly.

WalterSear2• 9 years ago

Not if you have access to oil money and don't give a fuck about anyone but yourself.

adventured2• 9 years ago

That's extremely far off base.

The US has seen its CO2 emissions consistently falling for years, while generating ever greater economic output from its falling CO2 emissions output, a trend that is set to continue regardless of what the White House does.

The US is presently a leader at reducing its CO2 output and CO2 output per unit of economic growth. Its CO2 emissions from energy production is at a 26 year low, a time when the economy was half its present size in real terms.

Per capita CO2 emissions in the US have declined by nearly 30% since their peak, per the Department of Energy. They're back to where they were in 1960. The trend-line is persistently down.

Several major economies of Europe are seeing similar aggressive trends in general CO2 emissions and per capita emissions.

China's CO2 emissions are still rapidly increasingly by contrast. They have no plans to actually reduce CO2 emissions, their plan is to maybe slow the increase in the next two decades. They also have no plans to reduce their extreme consumption of coal, rather they plan to try to have more renewable energy as a share. Currently China is producing at least 2x the CO2 output of the US with growing CO2 emissions, while the US has an economy 60% larger with a trend of falling CO2 emissions (set to continue as natural gas & renewables replace coal).

It's often said that the blame should be on the developed world because they're outsourcing pollution to China. At this point that's blatantly incorrect. China has made a choice about how it manufactures, to keep its costs artificially low so as to remain competitive. The US has doubled its substantial manufacturing output in roughly 30 years, without any corresponding output spike in CO2. China is cutting environmental corners, because if they don't the cost of their manufacturing would go up significantly.

JonFish85• 9 years ago

Remember that the Chinese government doesn't have to deal with a lot of what the United States' government does have to: things like local governments and our election system. Our government is not set up to move quickly (by design!): our government can't decide to shut down thousands of businesses for a day without consequences, and for good reason.

Americans have set up their government so that it more or less reflects the will of the people, and the relatively educated American public is not OK with the government taking drastic steps very quickly. For better or for worse, the Chinese government can move extremely quickly because they essentially answer to no one; if the government wants to raze a neighborhood for something, they do it. If they want to build a road, they move whatever's in the way and build it. In some ways it's incredibly efficient. But that's something the US government is not optimized for, and I'm personally glad for that.

njarboe4• 9 years ago

Is everything that comes out of a factory pollution? Many environmentalists would say so. Even the intended products are pollution. Pure H2O steam going up into the air. This is polluting the atmosphere with water. If there was too much steam going into the atmosphere, this would also be a problem, like CO2. Now I agree that too much C02 in the atmosphere is bad, but some can be emitted with no problem. How much is too much and who get to emit? This is the hard part. I think many people join the "climate change denial" crowd too push back against the "humans are evil and should go extinct, the quicker the better" environmentalist crowd.

hellofunk4• 9 years ago

I don't think you've been following the developments in this area. The Netherlands is aiming for half of all car sales by 2025 to be electric. Norway is already at one-third all electric.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/06/electric-car-s...

ams6110• 9 years ago

Won't help that much if they use electricity from coal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/climate/china-energy-comp...

Over all, 1,600 coal plants are planned or under construction in 62 countries

michalxnet• 9 years ago

Xi is smart guy and must be sad seeing this every day https://www.windy.com/overlays?cosc,33.358,107.644,5

throwaway2016a• 9 years ago

Thanks for pointing out that site. That is an awesome map. I find it very interesting / telling that the US has bright red areas for CO2 as well but all of them are at major shipping ports and in the ocean. Not surprising seeing how much pollution shipping creates.

stephengillie2• 9 years ago

Why does the Grand Canyon have such a huge pocket of CO? It's over 1200ppbv. Is there currently a forest fire there? The air quality there looks as bad as over Staten Island or some Chinese cities.

booleanbetrayal• 9 years ago

Great site ... thanks for this reference!

xiii1408• 9 years ago

msn.com??? Wonderful 90s throwback. Didn't realize this still existed.

darkstar999• 9 years ago

It's still the #46 website in the world according to Alexa.

TeMPOraL• 9 years ago

I didn't realize Alexa is still considered as a good source of data.

Siecje• 9 years ago

My Grandfather still uses it on less than ideal Internet speeds and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and slower and slower for him.

nopinsight2• 9 years ago

A less mentioned reason for pollution curb is that China wants to attract their top talents back home, as well as global up-and-comers who wish for more accommodative research funding. Most top Chinese students who studied abroad are currently residing in the US, working in major tech companies and academia.

They created the Thousand Talents program for promising and distinguished researchers, Chinese or otherwise, to work and stay in the country with salary comparable to the West, in nominal terms, and many extra privileges. [1]

Pollution is a major concern among those who are interested and this gives additional urgency to the government.

Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for developing advanced technologies they need, and they are pushing very hard to develop native talents and attract promising ones from other countries. This is the Singapore playbook that has propelled their two universities into major institutions in engineering and other fields within a few decades. (Engineering programs in both Singaporean universities are now ranked in the top 10 or 20 in the world. Also, both Tsinghua and Beijing are ranked in the world's top 10 in AI publications recently, but they plan for more universities to move up in more fields.)

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Program_(Ch...

bustrakcan• 9 years ago

Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for developing advanced technology they need

Because companies around the world are now aware of the fact that Chinese government steals technologies. Also, Chinese government is too late trying to get talents back.

Most of the laowais (expats) that were in Guangzhou, that were in technology, have left in recent years. The only foreigners left are africans trying to eek out a living and English teachers who can't make it anywhere else. You can imagine the reasons why: poisonous air that will give you cancer, poisonous food that will give you cancer, dirty water that will give you cancer, horrendous traffic (and everyone driving around honking and disregarding rules), bad mannered locals (imagine jackhammering at 4am, spitting, elbowing, cutting in lines), censorship, foreigners getting arrested without a reason, expensive rent (compared to quality), no way to be connected to the western internet without VPN (and recently, VPN have been failing as well), no way to talk to families overseas. And this is in the top province in China. Imagine tier 88 or even tier 2 cities. (shudder)

There's no reason to be in China other than to make money, then get the hell out. And that seems to be even harder now with the economy stagnating and everyone blowing bubbles into the real estate.

Thank god I got out of China. Many already have.

AznHisoka2• 9 years ago

What if you don't know any English? Should you stay put in China or move to America if you have the chance?

nopinsight2• 9 years ago

Your story illustrates why they are focusing on pollution control and developing the Social Credit System.

"..the Social Credit System will focus on four areas: "honesty in government affairs" (政务诚信), "commercial integrity" (商务诚信), "societal integrity" (社会诚信), and "judicial credibility" (司法公信). Media coverage has thus far focused mostly on the rating of individual citizens (which falls under "societal integrity"). However, the Chinese government‘s plans go beyond that and also include plans for credit scores for all businesses operating in China."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

throw2016• 9 years ago

This is inevitable in any fast developing economy. There is chaos and there is growth. You will see the exact same conditions in western economies when they developed.

Its because they offer opportunity that people flock there. And China has 1.3 billion to deal with, this will challenge any government to an extent that cannot be underestimated or brushed aside.

kamaal• 9 years ago

Seems pretty much like India.

Same issues. I think that will be with any country aiming for a very high rate of growth. Rapid progress is often chaotic.

TomK32• 9 years ago

Also, both Tsinghua and Beijing are ranked in the world's top 10 in AI publications recently, but they plan for more universities to move up in more fields

Sure they moved up in number of publications, but as with so many things in China, what's with the quality of this research? Only a few days ago we had a post here on fraud in China scientific work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473719

whooshee5• 9 years ago

Are you in academics? If you see some Chinese is cheating on his paper. You cannot effectively prove that the whole academic people are cheating. Given the basic ratio out there. Top-schools rarely cheat(https://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2017/institution/a...), Tsinghua is top tier. And its graduates are welcomed by top tier schools in Europe/US or tech companies. As for cheating, there are metric-system problems in China. For instance, to be a physician in China, you will be buried in day-to-day operations, however, if you want to climb up, you will need to have essays. I am not saying those cheaters are right, they are definitely wrong, but the system need to reconfigure itself as well.

hellofunk4• 9 years ago

This is the Singapore playbook

Interesting. When I toured several companies in Singapore, including Google, most of the staff were from Europe or the States. If Singaporeans are indeed doing well in their own schools, my guess is many are still leaving to work elsewhere. I frequently attended programming meetups where about 90% of the attendees were non-Singaporean.

But then, most of the Singaporeans I've known were quite happy to live and work in a Western country; I lived there briefly and was frequently asked by locals, "why would you want to live here, it's so small."

Regarding pollution, it was actually Singapore's air pollution that caused me to leave. I think I'm not alone with that sentiment.

gotrecruit• 9 years ago

As a Singaporean born and raised there and then left, you are spot on. Most Singaporeans, esp talented tech workers, do not wish to stay there. It's a gilded birdcage - if your moral values and behavior align with the government's, Singapore is a very clean, safe and prosperous environment for you. If you even have the notion to disagree with the government on anything, go somewhere else.

Because of such authoritarian attitudes in society, Singaporeans are raised to be subservient and fearful of authority (whether they know it or not). This means no creativity - the prevailing mentality in Singapore is "don't try to be clever - do what the authorities say and you won't go wrong", sort of like the local version of nobody gets fired for buying IBM. this is the reason why there is no innovation coming out of singapore despite the govt trying to offer all sorts of grants and schemes to "support local entrepreneurs" - because singaporeans have been psychologically beaten to subservience and are crippled when it comes to thinking out of the box because they have been conditioned by society to believe when you fail, you will be ridiculed and mocked and maybe even punished.

wallace_f• 9 years ago

This is a good example of why public policy should, in principle, just do the right thing for the people merely for the sake of doing the right thing--most of the time it works out in your group's self interest.

Sometimes in public policy it seems like we forget that we evolved to care about right and wrong for our own survival.

And yes, there are contentious topics which reasonable people can disagree on, but many are essentially the people vs special interest groups (pollution, healthcare, military expansion, etc)

burntrelish1273• 9 years ago

It's shrewd. Can't always rope-in top talent by force, so commercial and residential centers must be organized/redeveloped to be more attractive than competing global options.

PS: If it were SimCity, tear up roads, bulldoze industrial areas and build some parks. Sadly, PRC often does exactly that. :'( It was insane to see this empty new highway in Shanghai c. 2002 that had hedges, trees and flowers all the way down its length to the horizon. Oh, and a shiny, brand-new airport.

ericd• 9 years ago

I don't think those extra privileges would be a very strong enticement - it would be too clear how fragile my freedoms are when no one else is experiencing them, and from what I've seen, academics tend to prize freedom.

That said, I'm sure the draw of the idea of living in their native culture is strong.

Animats2• 9 years ago

It took only about 10 years after the Clean Air Act in the US before the big cities such as Cleveland and Pittsburgh had clear skies. China should be able to do it faster, since the technology already exists and cars already come with pollution controls.

seanmcdirmid5• 9 years ago

China's biggest problem in doing this is not technological, but based on the fact the party doesn't believe in rule of law, so their are nonmechanisms to enforce regulation beyond official fiat and periodic crackdowns, neither of which are sustainable in the long term.

They have crackdowned before, many times actually, but without real continuous enforcement of rules, factory owners are caught in a horrible prisoners dilemma given how hyper competitive production is (if your competitor cheats and you don't, you'll be out of business quickly). In this case, political reform is directly related to the environment.

Animats2• 9 years ago

Yes. Some inspector who was trying to get a sample of Diesel fuel from a distributor to test for sulfur and such was told "you have the obligation to do that, but not the authority."

Here are the rules for Diesel fuel in China.[1] The official standard for sulfur has been been slowly lowered from 0.2% to 10 ppm, but enforcement is weak. There's a weaker standard for "nonroad Diesel" for tractors and such. It's observed that at night, when the blue trucks roll into Shenzhen, the pollution level goes way up, because they're using "nonroad Diesel".

The US is now <15ppm sulfur for all Diesel uses except ships. It took 25 years to get there. The EPA is (was?) trying to get ships down to 1000ppm within 200 miles of the US.

It's not that hard to enforce this, because there aren't that many refineries. China has only 75 refineries. The US has about 125. Not that many places need to be inspected.

[1] https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cn/fuel.php

woodandsteel8• 9 years ago

What you are saying is true, but Xi seems to be using the great power he has accumulated to really crack down in some areas, like corruption. Maybe he will do the same for pollution.

xster• 9 years ago

I think you might be overemphasizing that relationship (or underestimating its consequence).

As a counter example, we can say China can't possibly enforce things like seat belt or drunk driving without political reform but those are largely non-problems now because they were easy politically costless solutions.

The problem is here is prioritization/will rather than mechanism/implementation since China likely believes the environment is a problem with a known solution and wants to milk dirty production for a new more years.

Gorbachev wanted to follow the simultaneous political and economic reform route and that definitely didn't turn out well for anyone.

averagewall3• 9 years ago

An anecdote, but I know of a factory that's had severely limited production for about a year due to pollution. The enforcement is ongoing. They do get away it breaking the rules a bit because the inspectors are corrupt, and there's some warning before they come but it's not a complete free-for-all.

nitwit005• 9 years ago

It's possible, but that doesn't match up with previous history. You can find articles about them trying to reduce the sulfur content of fuel going back longer than that, and that's a relatively straight-forward change.

rm_-rf_slash• 9 years ago

Yeah but a fair chunk of America's polluting industries just moved their operations to China. If China wants to embark upon an epic undertaking of technological pollution reduction, wonderful. But it's either that or move the problem somewhere else.

United857• 9 years ago

I'm more than willing to bet that this is due to the Communist Party Congress and the attendant media spotlight shining on China.

They did the same thing during the Olympics. Afterwards, though -- same old same old...

cepth2• 9 years ago

Also happened during the 2016 G20 summit in Hangzhou. There's a Chinese phrase for it, "G20 blue" or "G20蓝". (https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2016/08/26/china-basks-i...)

That said, this doesn't seem to be a localized shutdown, of the kind we saw during the Olympics or G20 summit. I know of a number of Chinese factories in industries ranging from finished wood products to consumer electronics that have been shutdown nationwide for "environmental audits".

seanmcdirmid5• 9 years ago

Ya, temporary and unsustainable. This probably isn't the start of something transformative.

davesque• 9 years ago

I guess this is one example of an upside to authoritarianism. When the leadership decides something is important, you'd better get with the program or else...

That being said, it's a shame that the US is having difficulty demonstrating the upsides of democracy and capitalism on this front.

PeachPlum2• 9 years ago

You just need the will

EPA Bans PCB Manufacture; Phases Out Uses

EPA press release - April 19, 1979

https://archive.epa.gov/epa/aboutepa/epa-bans-pcb-manufactur...

tryingagainbro• 9 years ago

Eventually they had /have to do it. Looks like you need to poison your air to industrialize but after a while you need clean up. Part of the trend. After people achieve a few basic needs they ask for cleaner air, less asthma and cancer.

Talking abut...efficiency. Can we guess some many lawsuits will be filed in courts against this? I'm guessing, zero. Must have been illegal all the time, but tolerated, until it wasn't.

stephengillie2• 9 years ago

How will this impact imports and the US economy? Are there any mid-Kickstarter businesses who are having to refund donations because the factory cancelled their work?

chiefalchemist2• 9 years ago

When the USA exported it's manufacturing, it also exported the associated pollution.

That being said, just because the pollution is manufactured overseas doesn't mean the USA won't eventually breathe, drink or eat it. The USA might have cleaned up its own backyard but that doesn't mean net pollution from US consumption is down.

syrrim• 9 years ago

There are a billion people in china, I have a hard time imagining that none of them contribute to polution for their own ends.

chiefalchemist2• 9 years ago

Certainly they do.

But when the factories left America for China, so did their smokestacks. For all intents and purposes America outsourced it's pollution problems.

Yet no one talks about that? Why do you think that is?

p.s. Regardless of China's billion+, the USA still out consumes them.

ransom1538• 9 years ago

I believe the world is warming through man made causes. However, I think it is just a byproduct of overpopulation. Pollution cannot be stopped with a exponential population curve. So turn off plants, recycle, re-arrange chairs, and volunteer all you want - but, in, 2040 I am not sure how we will support 9billion - without lots of waste.

killjoywashere2• 9 years ago

Read Hank Paulson's book, Dealing with China. That's a the former CEO of Goldman Sachs who opened the Chinese banking markets, and became Secretary of Treasury, overseeing the financial collapse here in 2008 (1). It's from 2015, goes up through October 2014.

He knows Xi. Well. Read that book.

https://www.amazon.com/Dealing-China-Insider-Economic-Superp...

tomkat0789• 9 years ago

This has temporarily stopped production from wide swaths of factories along China’s east coast and forced some factory owners to move supply chains to other countries.

What's the next country down in the environmental/cheap labor race to the bottom? Is India about to see huge manufacturing growth?

dforrestwilson• 9 years ago

Malaysia and Indonesia. Some smaller companies have already shifted there.

vfulco2• 9 years ago

This year I assisted some displaced workers in SH whose jobs were being moved by a Fortune 1000 company from PRC to Malaysia. The exodus is real and companies have to diversify their risks.

xkcd-sucks• 9 years ago

All the African countries with Chinese factories in them?

jbrun• 9 years ago

We are seeing increased action on environmental compliance in China. Our SaaS company offers tools to help businesses comply to environmental (and safety and quality laws). We recently bought a company in China that is in the same business and I can tell you that the citizens are very happy with government initiatives and companies are taking this seriously. (Separate post coming about SaaS in China).

I have lived in China for 1.5 years in 2005, 2010 and returning a lot now and I have travelled pretty much everywhere in the country, in my humble opinion, China is on a very interesting path that will make it hard for the US and EU to compete in a variety of sectors. We shall see. https://www.nimonik.com and http://www.envitool.com are the companies in question.

vfulco2• 9 years ago

Good luck with the new initiative. Can't come quickly enough and should provide growth for decades.

I live in SH and run a professional services company. At the margin, does seem attempts are being made.

Vince Fulco, CFA, CAIA Weisisheng Consulting vfulco[@]weisisheng.cn

keebEz• 9 years ago

Flexport wrote a blog post on this a few weeks ago as the first waves it were happening: https://www.flexport.com/blog/massive-factory-closures-china...

xvilka• 9 years ago

The funny thing about many US and EU enviroment protection supporters, that they drive an abandonement of almost pure nuclear energy use, while increasing the dependecy on coal and oil energy plants... And those produce not only chemical, but also a radiological pollution.

China temporarily shuts down thousands of factories in pollution crackdown

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