California teaches inmates code; some states ban them from teaching themselves

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/aug/17/prisons-coding-ban/

by morisy • 9 years ago

173 99 9 years ago

yohann3053• 9 years ago

Programming

University students might use it to nefarious ends too. I think the body of research that education is a net good is pretty conclusive at this point.

yohann3053• 9 years ago

i hate HN people downvote you left and right for no reason.. This trend has to stop... You cannot compare students to inmates Inmates are official criminals, not students... The system has already proven inmates have criminal activity. You think you can just teach code and it won't cross their mind to use it to nefarious ends? It's a real risk

cjbenedikt• 9 years ago

Giving inmates a towel is a risk too. Yes, they could use it to dry their hands but also to strangle someone. Same logic?

yohann3053• 9 years ago

same logic, that's why they aren't given silverware

thephyber• 9 years ago

it's a risk

Just about every decision that people make constitute some kind of risk. Consider the flip side of the coin -- what is the risk of denying prisoners legitimate educational resources?

It's probably better to remove the blanket ban and apply it to individual prisoners based on their risk profile.

buovjaga• 9 years ago

Caspia is an organization dedicated to help prisoners in the state of Washington participate in open source software projects.

jxramos• 9 years ago

I remember I was going to donate some old software text books to a prison volunteer organization. They turned my offer down saying something to the effect that inmate's reading levels would prevent them from comprehending college texts. I remember thinking it would inspire some Malcolm X type person getting all absorbed in reading and expanding the mind. I was pretty shocked at being declined, and made me contemplate being a Pollyanna about this subject.

strictnein2• 9 years ago

If you still want to donate: Pick up a copy of 2600. There's almost always ads or requests in the back from people in jail asking for tech books.

stephengillie• 9 years ago

That all criminals have a low reading level/intelligence is a classist(?) argument which supports systemic prejudice against criminals, increases recidivism, and limits their paths for redemption.

AlexCoventry2• 9 years ago

Some prisoners get pretty good at interacting with the legal system and comprehending and writing legal briefs.

strictnein2• 9 years ago

I can't help by wonder if this date is some latent Y2k bug:

https://cdn.muckrock.com/news_photos/2017/08/17/hacking.jpg

   "July 2, 1905"

orthecreedence• 9 years ago

Assuming that computer science books are banned because they could be used for getting access to unauthorized systems within the prison, they should also ban books on plumbing because a wrench could be used to hit somebody, or books on math as well because what if a prisoner finds a way to create a quantum tunnel outside of the prison just with some simple equations?

I'm consistently surprised by how idiotic our prison system in the US is. It seems to have two mantras: "the more the merrier" and "punish, not correct." I guess that's what happens when you have something as dumbfoundingly stupid as private prisons.

KindOne• 9 years ago

Can easily be fixed with air-gapped machines.

shawndrost2• 9 years ago

IAMA former teacher at 7370/The Last Mile. AMA

Background: I am a cofounder at Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp in SF. I worked with Beverly and Chris Redlitz to start Code.7370. Hack Reactor dedicated instruction, curriculum, and volunteer management to its foundation by building the curriculum, bundling all required materials (no internet in the classroom), and lecturing through the first class. I personally visited San Quentin a couple of dozen times to plan and teach, as did many coworkers at Hack Reactor. I also managed the volunteer-driven project to build the curriculum, powered by Hack Reactor alums and other volunteers. I worked closely with the students in the program (incredibly smart, dedicated, and community-oriented) and I was given a window into the very inspiring program that TLM envisioned, built, and (over the years since) managed and scaled.

chris_va• 9 years ago

What was the success criteria for the program?

How much selection bias is there in the students?

evanwolf2• 9 years ago

Aside from everything offline, what else was specific to the students and learning environment?

evanwolf2• 9 years ago

What did you learn from helping with Code.7370?

elipsey2• 9 years ago

Some of the ideas referenced in this article seem kind of weird to me, like that coding is “the next big blue collar job.”

Is this a profession or a trade?

Is “Software Engineering” a euphemism that exaggerates our jobs?

Did I waste my time getting a CS degree and spending half my life learning to do this?

I’m all in favor of anyone who wants to learn programming having a go at it, but I hope it doesn’t make me an elitist if I wonder whether it’s fair to consider software dev or engineering a trade skill that most anyone should be able to learn in several months without a general STEM education...

celim307• 9 years ago

All I know is that I've definitely been in some jobs where gluing together api's and cranking out templates felt closer to assembly line work than actual programming.

TallGuyShort6• 9 years ago

I think there's a spectrum. People who optimize file systems, for example: that's on the "engineering" side of the spectrum. It requires a scientific approach to the research. It requires a very deep understanding of complex systems, formal reasoning, and emergent behavior.

On the other end of the spectrum, I know people who got a degree completed unrelated to STEM, and through some on-the-job training managed to work their way into reasonably successful careers doing routine web development, or similar things. That certainly looks more like a trade. It's a marketable, valuable skill. They had to put some effort into something like an apprenticeship. But it's not exactly half their life training for a formal engineering discipline either.

There are plenty of respectable ways to make a living in the software world that don't require a 4-year degree from en engineering school. I don't think we should pretend otherwise or force people into the way we got our education. I'm more on the engineering side, but I'm very passionate about my work, and not everyone needs to be like that. Some people just want to make a living and focus on other things in life.

freeflight2• 9 years ago

I think there's a spectrum. People who optimize file systems, for example: that's on the "engineering" side of the spectrum. It requires a scientific approach to the research. It requires a very deep understanding of complex systems, formal reasoning, and emergent behavior.

In Germany, there are two different flavors for the apprenticeship to "Fachinformatiker" (Computer Science Expert): One for software development and one for systems integrations, there's even a sub-specialization for "support".

alphaalpha1014• 9 years ago

I think there's a spectrum. People who optimize file systems, for example: that's on the "engineering" side of the spectrum. It requires a scientific approach to the research. It requires a very deep understanding of complex systems, formal reasoning, and emergent behavior.

Is it engineering then? Or is it scientific? Because they're not the same thing.

kemiller2002• 9 years ago

It's not fair to think they can learn how to really develop software in a few months. It sets them up for an unreasonable expectation. Can some people do it? Yeah sure. There are always going to be those few people that can pick it up and grasp it that quickly, but for most it's just not possible. I've met a number of people with 4 year degrees that can barely do it. If this were easy, then there wouldn't be a shortage of developer constantly. I am sure there are some jobs people with a couple months of experience can do adequately, but this is far from the norm.

seabird• 9 years ago

The line has blurred because many companies now mandate that you hold a degree and 22 years of experience to even look in the direction of a computer, but I would say that not too long ago, it would be a pretty fair claim.

There's no need to pretend that code monkeys who churn out generic CRUD programs are highly skilled or talented. It's respectable, pays enough, demands enough, and many people are capable of it; it's as close to a blue collar office job as you could ask for.

Actual software "engineers," working on complex problems in computation, mathematics, physics, etc. are hugely outnumbered, even today, let alone tomorrow.

shawndrost2• 9 years ago

[I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp.]

Your comment defines a trade skill as one "that most anyone should be able to learn in several months without a general STEM education". So, let's evaluate that question for a few different trades/professions.

"Software Engineering": We have determined, through experimental proof, that bootcamps can make (some) novice non-degree-holders into employable software engineers in 3 months. Probably 3-18 months would cover most people that would otherwise be entering college in a CS major.

At parties I like to ask people how long it would take to teach someone to do their job. (Posit that they're smart and interested.) For most white-collar jobs, people answer "6-18 months". Most trade schools are somewhere in that region as well.

In my opinion, most professions would be well-served by the bootcamp model (like software engineering is) and a 6-18 month training period. So per your definition, I would say there are few professions out there, if any.

eropple5• 9 years ago

We have determined, through experimental proof, that bootcamps can make (some) novice non-degree-holders into employable software engineers in 3 months

Engineers or developers? How can you differentiate?

I've been writing code for about twenty-two years now (fifteen getting paid for it), I build large systems with tight fault tolerances and work to deeply understand my failure cases.

Your "6-18 months" is probably enough to make a code grinder. I wouldn't say twenty years, with current tools and current culture, has made me an engineer.

elipsey2• 9 years ago

Thanks for this. I can see where I'm making some unconsidered assumptions about what a trade (or profession) is. Also, I guess I could probably have shaved off a few months by skipping music appreciation, and so on. :)

bdcravens5• 9 years ago

I understand calling someone an engineer is critical to your marketing, but they aren't engineers. Teaching someone a framework isn't teaching them any form of engineering. It's teaching them to be an employable technician. Engineering is teaching from first principles.

A good rule of thumb: can they do their job if Stackoverflow.com is blocked at the corporate firewall?

jcranberry• 9 years ago

Just because you've finished a machinist apprenticeship doesn't mean you're a master machinist.

It's the same thing for software development. You can learn how to be useful or productive (albeit with a limited set of skills) in several months of applied training. That doesn't mean you're automatically skilled in things such as handling big data, compiler construction, HPC/optimization, systems programming, multithreaded applications...the list goes on.

However, as far as I can tell, not only is a 4 year program overkill for what most people want to do, a CS bachelor's degree usually doesn't cover particularly relevant information. A computer science degree teaches computer science, not software engineering. It's intended to introduce basic concepts which will be needed when proceeding on to do research.

What most people really want is an education in software engineering.

q845712• 9 years ago

My background is a CS degree from a liberal arts college, and I've found that my coursework in compilers and operating systems has often come in very useful. Additionally I've found that recent grads who have "computer *" degrees (e.g. "engineering" instead of "science") often are lacking exactly the most helpful and applicable knowledge I picked up in undergrad.

That said, I completely agree with your sentiment: Had my priority been to establish a software engineering career, a whole lot of what I did could have been skipped and substituted for things like learning how to write good unit tests.

I also strongly agree with you on "finished apprenticeship" vs. "master."

slavapestov• 9 years ago

Did I waste my time getting a CS degree and spending half my life learning to do this?

Yes.

bdcravens5• 9 years ago

Is “Software Engineering” a euphemism that exaggerates our jobs?

Maybe. I'd argue if you're mostly working with frameworks, you're probably more of a technician than an engineer.

I believe software engineering is a thing, but most who carry that job title don't do it. In the same sense that there's not much "science" in computer science.

mentallimits• 9 years ago

most anyone who is sufficiently intelligent and detail oriented. which excludes the vast majority of people.

wan23• 9 years ago

That list of banned books in Michigan is really interesting. Just from the first few pages -

A+ Certification Exam Guide - May facilitate or encourage criminal activity

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons - Threat to the order and security of the institution; role play

Against the Wind - Threat to the order/security of institution (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/206757.Against_the_Wind)

Art of Seduction (The) - Threat to order/security institution

Bookkeeping for Dummies - This book may facilitate crimial activity because the book includes tax forms which may be used to facilitate the filing of false or fraudulent tax documents.

b4ux1t34• 9 years ago

I. . .What on earth?

Why not ban chemistry textbooks? Learning about rapid oxidation reactions could be a threat to the order and security of the institution.

tomjakubowski• 9 years ago

Michigan does ban an organic chemistry textbook—Fox & Whitesell—for just that reason.

oxguy33• 9 years ago

The Michigan list is nuts. "Google Power, by Chris Sherman" is probably the dumbest one I've found so far -- it's just a book about how to use Google better. "So how did the inmate break out of his cell?" "He googled 'let me out'." "Shoot, if only we had banned that book!"

Also "ESPN - NBA Draft Preview" was banned with the reason: "The magazine includes an article which describes acts of bondage and sadism inflicted on individuals.". wat.

totalZero• 9 years ago

What's interesting is that The Art of Seduction is written by the author of The 48 Laws of Power, which is hugely popular among inmates. However, the Art of Seduction is almost entirely about romantic influence, and most of its lessons are about manipulating the emotions of one single target individual....so in my opinion it's hard to see how The Art of Seduction should be off-limits to prisoners.

closeparen• 9 years ago

Escapes have traditionally featured a charismatic prisoner who seduced a member of the prison staff into doing something at least marginally helpful (i.e. "accidentally" leaving an internal door unlocked).

Prisons don't want prisoners any more capable of social-engineering staff than they already are.

dTal• 9 years ago

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons - Arms and Equipment Guide, Rules Supplement - Weapons/security threat

They also seem to dislike Magic: The Gathering. And Tai Chi.

They've even got books in there banned because they "depict sexual acts". Not violent sexual acts, or acts with a minor. Just "sexual acts".

Can't exercise, can't play cards, can't even masturbate - just what are you allowed to do in prison?

tscs37• 9 years ago

They're only allowed continued existence in prison. /s

oxguy33• 9 years ago

Here's the full list of tech/science-related bans I found on the Ohio list:

* BEGINNING LINUX PROGRAMMING 4TH EDITION

* BLACK + DECKER THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO WIRING

* LPIC-1: LINUX PROFESSIONAL INSTITUTE CERTIFICATION STUDY GUIDE, THIRD EDITION

* MAKE: 35 THE DANGER ISSUE 38 (okay this ban is pretty justified)

* OPERATING SYSTEMS DEMYSTIFIED

* POPULAR MECHANICS 09/2014

* POPULAR SCIENCE 10/2015

* PRINTREADING FOR INSTALLING AND TROUBLESHOOTING ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS: SECOND EDITION

* WIRED 24.04

* WIRED MAGAZINE 08/2015

And apparently anything that even mentions Nazis is banned, even if it's just historical content:

* INTELLIGENCE REPORT WINTER 2015/ISSUE 159

* MAUS: MY FATHER BLEEDS HISTORY

* THE GESTAPO: A HISTORY OF HORROR

And I wonder what got these magazine issues banned:

* THE ATLANTIC 10/2014

* TIME 04/18/2016

aaron-lebo2• 9 years ago

The nazi ban makes sense because of certain prison gangs.

oxguy33• 9 years ago

Yeah I mean I understand it, but like, those books are far from promoting Nazism in any way :P

triangleman• 9 years ago

Maus is pretty strongly anti-nazi of course because it's told from the perspective of a Holocaust survivor. It would be like banning Schindler's List from a list of films available to prisons. Maybe it is banned in some places.

jrs95• 9 years ago

I don't think the availability of any Nazi related books would have any impact on the membership of prison gangs. People don't join them for ideological reasons.

Dowwie• 9 years ago

Heard a guest on NPR say that treadmills were invented as labor for prisoners that would create no sense of purpose nor pride in accomplishment

leggomylibro• 9 years ago

Huh. I immediately thought 'bullshit' and googled it, but Wikipedia says that yes, treadmills were invented in the UK in 1818 for prison labor.

But depending on how you define a treadmill, I don't think that's true; beasts of burden have been walking in circles to drive mills since people started cultivating wheat.

Zarathust• 9 years ago

There's one phrase that makes the whole thing very important : "In April, ABC News reported that none of the prisoners who had gone through the program had returned to prison since being released.". It is, imo, the only thing that really matters in the end

aaron-lebo2• 9 years ago

It's likely that former criminals get back into crime because they can't make a living, so they go back into something more lucrative and they have experience with. Coding is incredibly lucrative, so problem solved?

Wonder how they are getting jobs though. The number of jobs hiring those without university experience (and practical experience) and a criminal record can't be substantial. Probably job placement which is possible because it's a small program they really want to work. The actual website is very media friendly, but numbers are lacking.

eropple5• 9 years ago

I've noticed that software gigs tend to be a lot more reasonable about the felony checkbox. Not in banking/medical/other regulated areas, and usually towards white folks (which addresses some cultural stuff), but in general.

AlexCoventry2• 9 years ago

I volunteered in a NYS prison for a while. They had rooms full of computers which were off-limits to prisoners for unspecified security reasons. Some people were talking about offering a purely paper-based course on programming. At least developing programming skills was not a thought-crime there, though.

mjmein• 9 years ago

I once delivered a public speaking course to a group of prisoners about to go on parole. It was really eye opening to see how low confidence most of them had, and how bad they were at expressing themselves. In my opinion prisons should be made a lot more like college - make it that prisoners are forced to learn skills instead of being forced to do nothing.

journalistsscum• 9 years ago

Computer programming is, according to Wired’s Clive Thompson, “The Big Blue Collar Job.” In countries like Australia and Estonia, coding has become a central part of school curricula. If programming is the wave of the future in employment, prisons in several American states may be cutting incarcerated people off from gaining important skills by preventing them from possessing or receiving books about computer programming.

Journalists clearly have a problem with the fact that the asocial nerds and geeks from high school are making much more money than them. That's why we see so many articles referring to us as "coders" (like the people that do medical data entry) instead of "software engineers," and why we see people like Clive Thompson classifying us as blue collar workers--unlike journalists, who presumably are white collar. Considering that to the average reader, rightly or wrongly, one of the central distinctions between blue and white collar workers is intelligence, with blue collar workers stereotyped as being less intelligent, Thompson's classification is a rather obvious slight.

alphaalpha1014• 9 years ago

journalistsscum

Nice neutral name

software engineers

Sorry to break it to you, but software development is not engineering.

mnm12• 9 years ago

All states and the federal government are allowed to enslave prisoners. Is anyone surprised they ban books without reason? As long as the 13th Amendment stays unamended, nothing will ever change in this area. When people are thought of as subhuman slaves, there's no limit to the depravity and horrors that will be justified.

Fjolsvith2• 9 years ago

If you commit the crime, you do the time. Don't want to be 'enslaved', don't commit the crime!

And most people in prison committed the crime.

mnm12• 9 years ago

I'm sure they had similar bullshit justifying slavery in its previous forms too.

California teaches inmates code; some states ban them from teaching themselves

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