Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/world/europe/france-roman-neighborhood-sainte-colombe-vienne.html

by whocansay • 9 years ago

275 145 9 years ago

hourislate• 9 years ago

I find it amazing that you can find Roman mosaics that have survived 2000 years without any significant damage but the tile installation in your bathroom barely last 10-15 years without maintenance or renovation.

In 2000 years they will still be finding Roman Ruins but nothing from the 20 + century will survive.

weberc2• 9 years ago

According to the article, you just need to burn your home down.

x2203• 9 years ago

brb

square90• 9 years ago

A little tongue in cheek: but isn't that classic survivorship bias?

nkrisc• 9 years ago

I believe you're exactly right. The Romans built much more than we can find today. Obviously most of it didn't make it through the last 2,000 years.

SerLava• 9 years ago

Well to be fair, most Roman stuff didn't survive, and plenty of non-steel-reinforced concrete things will last just as long as the Roman stuff.

Often times buildings are disappointingly short lived, but I think sometimes people lament it a little too much. If we need a different building there 50 years later, and we built it to last 200 years, then a lot of material and effort was wasted. There's often a lot of good that comes from knocking a building down and using the limited space for something more useful.

Jaruzel• 9 years ago

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Back in Roman times, there were about ~300m people in the known world. That's lots of space to settle into, with a view that you and your descendants will be there for a very long time. They built stuff to _last_, because as far as they were concerned, the Roman Empire was unbeatable, and their dynasties would go on forever.

These days, we're so crammed in where ever there are usable resources, that the moment we die, or move on, someone claims the space and adapts it to their needs. Space is at such a premium that it's illogical to lock it out as one particular usage for centuries.

kobeya• 9 years ago

and plenty of non-steel-reinforced concrete things will last just as long as the Roman stuff

Not as long as you would think. Non-reinforced concrete only lasts a few generations, whereas there are Roman concrete roads still in (mild, rural) use today.

We actually know why too. Recent science shows that Roman concrete used a slightly different formula that took much longer to set -- weeks or maybe months rather than days. They didn't know how to make fast-setting concrete like we have today. But the length of time also made the structure stronger. We could build that way, if we wanted. But we don't.

adekok• 9 years ago

Bury your bathroom floor in 10' of dry dirt, and it will last almost forever.

whipoodle• 9 years ago

Don't be so pessimistic! Our prisons will probably survive.

joshuaheard• 9 years ago

They didn't use grout in their mosaics, which breaks down over time. Also, most bathrooms today are built on a wood subfloor which would not survive millenia.

ashark• 9 years ago

Modern construction, even when it uses good materials, is shit-tier, (I think) because labor's so expensive.

For a while we lived in an upper-middle-class house (at the time it was built) constructed around the time of WWI. National historic registry, the whole thing, but little reno or updating. The hardwood floors were intact but in terrible shape. Siding probably needed to be replaced. No air conditioning (Iowa, so summers hot enough for at least a month or so that you really want AC) inadequate gas heating, no insulation, etc. Point being that, even when occupied, the house experienced swings between ~55f in the winter and ~100f in the summer.

The remarkable thing? It had incredible woodwork, just... everywhere. Bannisters, fireplaces, big wooden pillars with accompanying massive trim between rooms, everywhere. The doors were all custom built, paneled, and solid wood—they'd be considered top-end luxury today. It'd cost a fortune in material to do that now, the lumber was so good, but the really crazy part? The intricate joins and such were so tight you couldn't fit a piece of paper between them. I mean perfect, despite ~100 years of temperature swings like that. Good freakin' luck finding anyone who can do that today, and if you manage it, good luck finding enough money to pay them to custom-trim an entire house that way. It'd be off-the-charts expensive.

tcbawo• 9 years ago

From what I understand, a good portion of that woodwork was built on-site as well. The fine trim carpentry and plaster work of past eras was unbelievable. In many older houses, a lot of detailed trim was made from plaster. Prior to the specialization of careers in the modern industrial era, many people dedicated their lifetime to learning these skilled trades. Today, those skills are sadly rare.

lucozade2• 9 years ago

Indeed. I live in a 1920's built Arts and Crafts style house. We had some carpentry work done a couple of years ago and the chap that did it also happened to specialise in period restoration work for the National Trust. He estimated that it would cost more to replace the downstairs oak paneling and staircase than it would to buy the house and land.

A corollary to the labour cost also seems to be a reduction in high end craft skills. Modern houses don't have the features that require high end skills as they're too expensive so there's less demand for those skills. Another anecdote: it took us ages to find a plasterer who could do the ceiling in one of the bedrooms as the cornering was so complex and most refused to quote. Eventually, one of them put us in contact with a retired gentleman who did the work (at a quite reasonable price considering). Watching him work was amazing.

The only time I recall being more impressed was, many years ago, seeing a spray painter paint a propeller as a template for the robot. It was a bit like watching dancing but to a micron (or so) tolerance. Masterful.

Sleeep2• 9 years ago

With changing technology, I think we've actually sorta lost a lot of the early methods of construction. The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible).[1] I just imagine the craftspeople restoring the ship were learning the old techniques for the very first time.

Ironically, she was supposedly built to only last 25 years. That might be just an urban legend tho.

[1] https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-shi...

arstin• 9 years ago

I really hope that there will be a shift back to supporting these sorts of skilled trades over the next generations. Is it too wishful to think it might happen as "industrial revolution" style jobs continue automating away and perhaps if UBI can provide a basic net? To some extent we're seeing it emerge already with "millennial artisanal X". Besides providing economic opportunities, this sort of work would also help some with the spiritual malaise which will no doubt continue to spread over the next century.

As software engineers we are blessed with the opportunity for depth in craft much more than most workers nowadays, but we still live a fairly nerveless existence, with the tips of our fingers being just about our only meager contact with the world while the rest of our body atrophies.

I've started learning woodworking with old hand tools, but so far it's just made me appreciate more just how skilled these old woodworkers were.

pjc50• 9 years ago

nothing from the 20 + century will survive

Several nuclear waste containment structures are planned with that kind of lifetime. They have to be.

ocschwar• 9 years ago

Their survivorship, however, is mostly designed to come from mother nature, not from craftsmanship.

rm_-rf_slash• 9 years ago

When I visited Ravenna, I saw some amazing Roman-era mosaics, including an uncensored Christ undergoing baptism. The detail was absolutely spectacular.

Just a few blocks away was a medieval church built hundreds of years later. The mosaics there looked so amateurish that they looked like they were done by children.

Japan has somewhat of an answer to this: every 20 years they tear down the Ise Grand Shrine and build it up again. This allows them to retain specialized construction techniques across generations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise_Grand_Shrine

simias3• 9 years ago

You use your bathroom daily (I hope!), those mosaics were protected by a think layer of dirt. So I guess the trick is to stop washing your bathroom! And of course as others mention there's a heavy survivor bias at play.

siphor• 9 years ago

According to various rome tours i recently did:

Those tiles aren't surface level like ours are, each spot in the mosaic is more like a rod, and it goes down a couple inches.

sgc2• 9 years ago

Not true. There may be some, but most mosaics use about 7-10mm thick stone tile. I have seen a lot of them... They last because they are covered, and the better preserved are often in dry climates. Archeological sites tend to cover them back up with a layer of gravel to protect them.

lostlogin4• 9 years ago

No, the pieces a mostly cubic. I dug heaps out the ground near Swindon. A big pipeline was going in and a ruined villa was near it. After a month of digging we were told to grab anything we wanted as it would be trashed in the morning. I got a few mosaic squares, a nail and a cow tooth.

wildmusings• 9 years ago

This might be a good thing, even beyond cost considerations. Nowadays, if a building doesn't fall on its own, good luck tearing it down to make space for something more useful. Getting buildings registered as "historic" has become a favorite (and highly successful) tactic of the anti-development crowd.

pm902• 9 years ago

You've got to compare the right things.

Average Romans were probably slaves and, not sure, but probably lived in shanties that definitely don't exist.

The mosaics and stuff that survives today is likely the home of an elite, or some important Government building. So the right comparison would be to, say, Empire State Building.

thinkingemote2• 9 years ago

Using a US analogy I think the right one would be a Plantation owners house.

jaclaz2• 9 years ago

Of course the luxury homes were for an elite, but forget about the "average" Roman being a slave, by definition a Roman was NOT a slave (and a slave by definition not a Roman), actually the Romans were the first to "invent" the figure of the "liberto" (freedman in English):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedman

that - once freed - became a citizen (with some very marginal restrictions).

kakwa_• 9 years ago

To be fair, rare are the roman buildings that survived in good condition.

There are some beautiful counter examples, like for example the Rome Pantheon, but this building, being converted as a church, as been correctly maintained most of the time up to now.

Long standing (and sometimes beautiful) structures are still up because of proper maintenance, they can endure some kind of neglect for a few decades, but not a lot more. Maintenance is the key. (an even bigger example that comes to my mind is Hagia Sophia, which, in spit of being in a seismic area and being quite tall, is still standing today after ~1500 years).

As for the ruins, given the proper conditions, even your shitty bathroom can be preserved. Maybe not yours specifically, but one of the millions others like yours. Keep in mind that the Roman Empire spanned across most of southern Europe, the middle east and North Africa, that multiplies the "proper conditions" opportunities.

HelloNurse• 9 years ago

I don't get how this excavation is exceptional, compared to sites like Veleia or Barcelona with similarly buried buildings or really well preserved sites like Pompeii.

AlexeyBrin• 9 years ago

probably the most exceptional find from the Roman era in years

Pompeii was discovered more than 200 years ago.

thinkingemote2• 9 years ago

It's news. The clue is in the word. It is new (to us, now)

cpr3• 9 years ago

Some beautiful timber-framed tithe barns from the 800's survive in England.

https://www.google.com/search?q=english+tithe+barns+timber-f...

Build with massive timbers (no nails), keep the wood dry (and watch for beetles), and your beautiful, practical structure can last many centuries.

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/oak-beams-new-college-oxf...

A friend of ours recently built a large tithe barn replica (including the masterful traditional English joinery, more complex than American) in North Guilford, CT at the Dominican Sisters' convent (unfortunately, can't find it on the web anywhere), and it's truly an eighth wonder of the world (at least in the timber framing business).

(Timber-framing is my (somewhat now dormant) hobby, and also a convenient hobby-horse here. ;-)

makmanalp• 9 years ago

Edinburgh Castle's great hall is like this. Though the story we were told by the guide was that it was built by shipwrights (who were the most skilled timber craftsmen in that day), and so they basically built an upside down boat frame for the ceiling. But seeing that other building makes me doubt this story!

https://www.edinburghcastle.gov.uk/discover/highlights/the-g...

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1276&bih=636&tbm=isch&sa=1...

Isamu• 9 years ago

Hammerbeam truss or roof, is the search term. There are some lovely examples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerbeam_roof

I am thinking the Hammerbeam design was a later development of what we see in the tithe barn designs.

cpr3• 9 years ago

No, it's true that shipwrights were often involved in early timber framed building--there's a reason the "nave" of a church is called that.

vinw• 9 years ago

Your comment reminds me of this, near the original Guildford (with a 'd' :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanborough_Grange

robin_reala• 9 years ago

Although pronounced without the ’d’. Also, why have I never heard of Wanborough Grange? Will have to visit.

barsonme• 9 years ago

That's really neat, thanks for sharing.

beat4• 9 years ago

Timber framing is beautiful and long lasting, but expensive, requiring fine workmanship and specialized skills, and more importantly, high quality wood - long, straight trees for beams.

It was more or less obliterated in the late 19th century with the arrival of inexpensive machine-made nails. Cheap nails allowed a shift from timber framing to balloon framing using 2x4 boards, using both cheaper wood and less-skilled labor. Until manufactured nails came along, nails had to be made one at a time, by hand, by a blacksmith. Nails were expensive. That's why 19th century and earlier furniture has such beautiful joinery - it was cheaper to hand-carve dovetail joints and other woodwork than it was to nail it together.

The history of architecture is a history of economics. Fascinating stuff! (None of this is meant as a knock on timber framing, btw - it's superior in every respect but cost.)

Houshalter3• 9 years ago

There's also survivorship bias here. Perhaps there were a lot of poorly made 9th century buildings and barns that didn't survive.

cpr3• 9 years ago

All true, but my memory is that timber framing is only 20% more expensive when looking at whole-house costs. So it's not prohibitive by any means.

blacksmythe• 9 years ago

Nails were so expensive, I had heard that people would sometimes burn buildings down to recover the nails.

However, it appears this might by a myth: https://historymyths.wordpress.com/2014/07/03/revisited-myth...

erikpukinskis2• 9 years ago

English timber framing is cool and everything, but the Japanese really deserve the title for figuring out how to make more or less permanent wooden buildings a very long time ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8Dry%C5%AB-ji

I am sometimes surprised, in my research into permaculture, at how many of these problems were solved by the Japanese a thousand years ago. In food, clothing, homes, tools, the level of efficiency and sophistication in the ancient techniques is astounding.

I've often thought Japanese culture strange, but lately I tend to conclude it's because they dealt with issues centuries ago that the west has only now started to think about.

x2203• 9 years ago

Would you care to share some other Japanese practices that demonstrate efficiency and sophistication?

m_mueller• 9 years ago

Didn't the Japanese adapt these techniques from China? AFAIK Chinese joineries are very similar, but the Japanese were best able to preserve the culture (no foreign invasion until WW2, no communism).

mirimir• 9 years ago

They rather look like upside-down ships.

spodek• 9 years ago

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

abiox3• 9 years ago

relevance seems unclear.

slau• 9 years ago

Not the OP, but it's from Ozymandias, by Percy Shelley.

It's a poem inspired by some archeological discoveries in Egypt, whose main message is that no matter how vast or powerful an empire is, all that will remain---over time---are ruins, if at all.

Not entirely irrelevant; although maybe not quite in line with what this board usually discusses.

igravious2• 9 years ago

Perhaps the more, um, hip version speaks to you? “On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.” That includes you, me, emperors and empires.

RubberMullet• 9 years ago

Every time I read about one of these discoveries I'm reminded of Zeugma[1] and the effort to save the artifacts and mosaics[2] discovered there before it was flooded. The BBC made a great documentary[3] about it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma,_Commagene

[2] http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/enlarge/image_2307_1e-Zeugma-...

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkluUBePzNc

blahman2• 9 years ago

Such discoveries (yes, of similar or greater quality) are made so frequently in the southern parts of the Balkans / Italy that they are almost skipped in the news. Yet, when it happens in France it makes the NYT and the event is 'exceptional'.

bogomipz2• 9 years ago

The NYTimes didn't call them exceptional, the French Culture Ministry called them an "exceptional discovery", as did an archeologist working on the excavation.

If you read the article what makes this "exceptional" is the fact that the fires which destroyed the place actually had a preserving effect:

'The fires essentially froze in place much of the neighborhood’s architecture, including even the artifacts left behind by residents fleeing the blazes, “transforming the sector into a veritable ‘little Pompeii’ of Vienne,” according to Archeodunum.'

So no its not just any old Roman find.

A culture minister seeing a marketing opportunity for tourism likely had their office issue a press release and as stated in the article invited journalists to come to tour the site this week.

Similarly the archeologist from Archeodunum likely put out their own press release as it's good for business.

Perhaps those parts of the Balkans/Italy you mention should have their respective cultural minister to do a better job marketing their finds.

kweks• 9 years ago

This is very likely a "lost in translation" or "false friend" moment. The French "exceptionnel" means: one of a kind, typically due to extenuating cricrumstances. (When your local bakery is closed because the baker broke his leg, the note on the window will say "fermeture exceptionnel"..

The Culture Ministery's comments are therefore quite accurate for this case, and not so much pomp.

Koshkin• 9 years ago

I wonder if anything from today will still be around in 2000 years, it is such a long time by today's standards.

The humankind progressed very slowly from the early time of Babylon (some five thousand years ago) through the time of Rome - both civilizations seem equally ancient to us. But today, even one hundred years seems an incredibly long time.

On the other hand - and somehow it is hard to believe - hundreds or thousands of years ago people were the same as now, with the individual and cultural differences from us probably being smaller than the differences that exist between us right now.

netule• 9 years ago

I think it's incredibly optimistic to think that there will be people around in 2,000 years to analyze our remains. The way things are going, I can't help but to lose faith in our species.

simias3• 9 years ago

It seems hard to imagine that humanity could be completely wiped out. Billions dying in a huge catastrophe? Maybe. Terrible survival conditions for the survivors? Possibly. Complete annihilation? Improbable.

We're quite tough at a species and now we have the technology to make even the most terrible environments survivable.

That's why I find plans to colonize Mars as a "backup" in case something terrible happens on Earth rather ridiculous. It would be incredibly difficult to make Earth more inhospitable than Mars is right now. Nuclear winter Earth would probably be paradise compared to normal Mars.

If you're worried about humanity's survival build underwater cities and bunkers in the arctic, Mars isn't worth it.

cm2187• 9 years ago

If we keep building everything in glass, there won't be much ruins to look at in 2000 years.

All that will survive from our civilization is probably going to be a few motorway interchanges and perhaps some soviet-area, all-concrete monuments.

trentnix• 9 years ago

Alarmists have been warning us of impending catastrophe for thousands of years. People have feared overpopulation since Hannibal was marching the elephants over the Alps. Ministers have said for generations "this is as bad as it can get, we are doomed".

You'll have to pardon my skepticism.

will_brown• 9 years ago

That same kind of doom and gloom end of the world thinking existing 2,000 years ago, it obviously exists today and guaranteed if we are around in 2,000 years it will exist then.

A quote I like that just about sums up human nature from the time of the Romans to today:

"When Jesus comes back, these crazy, greedy, capitalistic men are gonna kill him again." - Mike Tyson

randyrand• 9 years ago

I agree, they most definitely wont be human. Some AI/bio-hack hybrid.

VectorLock• 9 years ago

Shoot we just cracked how to make Roman Concrete that can last 2000 years being beaten by seawater. https://www.nature.com/news/seawater-is-the-secret-to-long-l...

vslira• 9 years ago

A thought just crossed my mind: can you patent rediscovered ancient technology? I mean, prior art and all... (not joking)

philh• 9 years ago

I recall an article saying that

a) We use rebar in concrete for tensile and shear strength, which massively decreases the amount of concrete you need but shortens lifespan.

b) Our concrete sets a lot faster.

c) The specific mineral that the nature article is about, was already known. (I'm not sure if it was widely known.)

(These are the main things I remember, anyway.)

jotjotzzz• 9 years ago

I think it is nearsighted to say that "humankind progressed very slowly" when we can't even figure out all of the wonders accomplished by our ancestors and to the precision of the way they built so many of structures that still exist today without our "modern tools" and knowledge. There were no books that survived to tell us of all the lost knowledge uncovered before us. The reason why I think our society is laying the foundation for future progress is the Internet. All knowledge aggregated and never lost in one central place. We have to still discover what was lost thousands of years before us. What could be "new" to us may have been already known common knowledge in the past? And who knows the many lost civilizations that could have been just as technically knowledgeable before us.

cjjuice• 9 years ago

Also the collective goals of humankind have changed. We can't measure past civilization "progress" on our metrics of progress today. They weren't trying to "progress" in the ways we are progressing today.

khedoros1• 9 years ago

We never know what will happen in the future. Imagine if "something" happened, and no computers were built for 50 years. The Internet relies on a constant stream of replacement hardware. The information is geographically scattered and at least partially redundantly stored, but the hardware it's stored in is all pretty fragile.

thaumasiotes2• 9 years ago

There were no books that survived to tell us of all the lost knowledge uncovered before us.

Not always true. We do have surviving technical documents (reports from governors to kings) dealing with water management in Mesopotamia. Unfortunately, the specialized vocabulary in those documents is untranslatable because we don't already know the details of Mesopotamian water engineering.

abritinthebay• 9 years ago

when we can't even figure out all of the wonders accomplished by our ancestors and to the precision of the way they built so many of structures that still exist today

Err, source?

There are a few surprising examples of advanced stuff (Damascus Steel for example) but almost always they are due to taking advantage of luck/sources (like Damascus Steel) rather than inherent skill or design that was "lost".

Have any examples in mind?

eesmith6• 9 years ago

Many things will be left in 2,000 years. The Killarney Copper Mines were in use starting over 4,000 years ago, and we've found remains from that era. Think of all the tunnels and mines we've built, many with things inside.

The faces of the four presidents carved on the illegally confiscated Six Grandfathers aren't going to erode away in 2,000 years.

Watch the long-running BBC series "Time Team" to see just how much is in the ground still from the Middle Ages, Roman era, and even back to the neolithic.

Our trash heaps are the middens of the future.

dageshi• 9 years ago

Time Team wasn't a BBC series, it was made by Channel 4 (one of the other main UK TV Channels)

It is however an exceptionally good show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLcxwPeeohk

One of my favourite episodes

paulddraper• 9 years ago

illegally confiscated Six Grandfathers

Odd description. Illegal according to US law, or Lakota law?

(Legality has interesting implications in war between two nations.)

LeifCarrotson• 9 years ago

carved on the illegally confiscated Six Grandfathers

Hadn't heard of the Six Grandfathers or the confiscation thereof (other than that the entire country is built on confiscated land), but here's an interesting, if biased, article on the topic: http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1212

In 1884, New York City attorney Charles E. Rushmore came to the Black Hills to check on legal titles to some properties. On coming back to camp one day, he asked Bill Challis about the name of a mountain. Bill is reported to have replied:
“Never had a name but from now on we’ll call it Rushmore.”
With that offhand comment, the mountain known to the Sioux as Six Grandfathers became Mount Rushmore.

c5karl• 9 years ago

The Washington Monument will be there a very long time. It's all load-bearing stone masonry, 15 feet thick at the base. It's not far above sea level, so I guess its foundations could be threatened by rising seas, but stone foundations should do just fine submerged in briny water.

hwillis• 9 years ago

The things we have today aren't as new as we like to think. The Antikythera mechanism is a clockwork calculator for astronomical phenomena from 2150 years ago. It wasn't surpassed until Babbage.

pbhjpbhj2• 9 years ago

Vikings supposedly used polarity of sunlight to determine the suns position through cloud cover.

Eg https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20052-vikings-crystal....

jboggan• 9 years ago

Probably Javascript.

johansch• 9 years ago

I'm just now holding a 1996 Intel Pentium 150 MHz CPU (A80502150) with a ceramic encasement and gold-plated pins. I think it will survive for a very long time.

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Pentium/Intel-Pentium%20150%20...

coss2• 9 years ago

I wish I could go and help at an excavation. Anyone know if there's volunteer programs?

njharman4• 9 years ago

Yeah it's called being a grad student pursuing masters in archaeology.

coss2• 9 years ago

erikpukinskis2• 9 years ago

Better link with more pictures here: https://hyperallergic.com/394056/archaeologists-discover-a-l...

soufron• 9 years ago

The oldest timber-frame that I have seen was in France at the Hotel-Dieu in Tonnerre, Burgundy. With 90m meters long, it's a sight: https://hoteldieudetonnerre.jimdo.com/

Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’

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