YC-backed Muzmatch definitely doesn’t want to be Tinder for Muslims

https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/03/yc-backed-muzmatch-definitely-doesnt-want-to-be-tinder-for-muslims

by janober • 9 years ago

58 97 9 years ago

Even though a bunch of startup blog posts say not to make a dating service it looks like they have had great success with this. This isn't a tinder for Muslims its more like a hip Christian Mingle for Muslims. Dating verticals seem to be easier to figure out than the general one. Also, stressing marriage and long commitment is better.

Also, this is great marketing for Muzmatch by techcrunch. Title entices people for engagement, statements enforce the values of the people that will use the service and the purpose / mission statement is well mixed by the central thesis.

teej• 9 years ago

For every hit like Tinder, there are a hundred dead dating apps that never got enough traction to take off or couldn't nail down the brutal acquire-retain-monetize math. Tinder's greatest "growth hack" is that it's used for hookups. They don't lose two users every time they make a successful match.

That's why people say to not start a dating service, because the base fundamentals are terrible. You need a tremendous advantage in acquisition or retention to survive.

avip• 9 years ago

"JDate for Muslims" is the most accurate, but I guess most TC readers won't recognize that historic item.

dogma1138• 9 years ago

JDate isn't actually limited to Jews only, I'm not sure if it's still the case but few years ago Jews were actually a minority on JDate.

It was at some time considered the 'better dating site' as far as demographic goes before dating sites for the 'better educated and better paid' demographics became more prevalent.

alexdrans• 9 years ago

Congratulations Ryan!

hedgew• 9 years ago

According to their numbers, 3% of their users have gotten married through the app. I wonder what that number is for Tinder?

bogomipz10• 9 years ago

I am doubting that they are verifying actual marriages resulting form their app.

virtuabhi2• 9 years ago

It is so disappointing to see a YC startup directed only to a particular religion. Where I come from (India) there are things like if you belong to religion X then you cannot go to temple of religion Y during prayers, etc. But we regard those policies as regressive and are trying to remove them.

And regarding the idea that Muslims are looking for marriage and not for casual encounters, it is possible to achieve it without focusing on religion aspect. For example, in India websites like shaadi.com (shaadi literally means marriage) are used as dating websites where participants know that they plan to marry in near future.

Also, I would expect VCs with supposedly liberal beliefs to stand for inter-religion marriages as they are much more dangerous (seriously, you can get killed for it) and not for an app "where single muslims meet".

mrkgnao• 9 years ago

Shaadi.com owns a number of related websites targeted at particular Indian communities. I live in Kolkata and ads for bengalimatrimony.com are everywhere (in a manner of speaking).

virtuabhi2• 9 years ago

Completely agree. But imagine a YC funded startup where single people of Brahmin caste meet. I can understand local people developing apps like that but not a well-respected, liberal, California-based VC firm.

pj_mukh• 9 years ago

This maybe your Indian bias showing where communal issues are a little more fiery. Religion based dating/relationship sites are fairly common in America and a lucrative business [1][2]. Not sure why we should suddenly start getting worried just when Muslims build their own as well. Seems like a sound investment from YC's POV.

[1] https://www.christianmingle.com/

[2] https://www.jdate.com/en-us

P.S: I am also Indian.

infruset3• 9 years ago

In France where I live, I suspect such community-based dating apps would be frowned upon and seen as close-minded. Most people I know see religion as something people slowly liberate themselves from and not as a silo inside which you get married while keeping people from other faiths outside of your life.

But I also understand this is a cultural difference with America, and I'm curious to read views from other people around the world in this thread.

EDIT: not sure why I'm being downvoted, I'm trying to give a perspective from a different part of the world which I think is relevant to how such an app might be perceived there. I'm not trying to insult anyone.

discombobulate• 9 years ago

Are there dating apps based around other hobbies, or is it just religion?

AndrewKemendo• 9 years ago

I'm American and see those sites as equally regressive.

angersock• 9 years ago

Relax, it's just market segmentation and better-focused customer acquisition.

romanovcode• 9 years ago

Yeah, imagine a headline "YC-backed Splinder is dating app only for white people".

I bet people would not be that relaxed. #justsayin'

platform• 9 years ago

@angersock not sure that suggesting an internet stranger -- to 'relax' right at the start of the feedback, is a respectful way engage in constructive conversation.

chimeracoder• 9 years ago

Where I come from (India) there are things like if you belong to religion X then you cannot go to temple of religion Y during prayers, etc

Those policies exist all across the US and Europe as well, as well as the rest of the world. It's not limited to India.

raverbashing• 9 years ago

Where I come from (India) there are things like if you belong to religion X then you cannot go to temple of religion Y during prayers, etc

I don't see what's the problem. It makes perfect sense to me

Temples of any religion are usually not public grounds and can enforce visitation rules.

kinkrtyavimoodh• 9 years ago

And... we are back to what people can or cannot do arguments.

If things are illegal they can typically get shut down directly. They don't need to be 'frowned' upon. Things being frowned upon shows a cultural preference or development.

bogomipz10• 9 years ago

"Temples of any religion are usually not public grounds and can enforce visitation rules."

This is patently untrue. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. I'm neither Muslim, nor Hindu, nor Sikh, nor Buddhist nor Shinto and I have been welcomed into everyone of those great religion's temples in many different countries throughout the world. They are very much public places.

contingencies2• 9 years ago

Agreed. Frankly I should think that many Muslims would find this entire notion offensive. Just because someone is Muslim doesn't mean they (a) necessarily want to find a muslim partner (b) have family with backward and regressive views (c) live in a society with backward and regressive views (d) want to support the continuation of backward and regressive views

IMHO in many traditional societies young people want to shake off the controlling habits of former generations and such an app would actually be a concrete step backwards.

(Full disclosure: My wife is Chinese muslim, and we have muslim friends in Australia, India, Indonesia, Thailand, Tunisia, UK, etc. I am personally irreligious.)

yomly• 9 years ago

And on the other hand I know plenty of people who would love something like this. Different strokes for different folks.

computerex4• 9 years ago

(b) have family with backward and regressive views (c) live in a society with backward and regressive views (d) want to support the continuation of backward and regressive views

Wait, what are you implying here? A dating site exclusive to Muslims isn't suggestive of B, C or D. There are dating sites exclusive to African Americans for example, are they backwards and regressive too?

dragonwriter5• 9 years ago

Frankly I should think that many Muslims would find this entire notion offensive.

Many people find anything offensive, but I don't see any particularly good reason to think there is anything particularly deserving of it in this concept.

Just because someone is Muslim doesn't mean they (a) necessarily want to find a muslim partner

I would think that even Muslims who do not want exclusively to find a Muslim partner would recognize that there are Muslims who do wish that.

IMHO in many traditional societies young people want to shake off the controlling habits of former generations and such an app would actually be a concrete step backwards.

Allowing people who don't share their open attitude toward dating he opportunity to have a dating forum that supports their preferences does not prevent those with open attitudes from pursuing more open venues, which are not in short supply.

Christian Mingle doesn't stop Christians that whose dating interested isn't religiously restrictive from using any of the vast area of open-preference dating apps in the universe, the Muslim equivalent would be no different in that regard.

Chris20487• 9 years ago

Just because someone is Muslim doesn't mean they (a) necessarily want to find a muslim partner

I thought the religion required it? What is a "muslim" in this case?

computerex4• 9 years ago

It is just yet another service catered towards certain individuals. The exclusivity might make it more interesting.

wyager• 9 years ago

Islam forbids Muslim women from courting non-Muslim men. That is presumably one of the motivations behind this service. https://islamqa.info/en/21380

cr0sh• 9 years ago

Perhaps true (likely - but I am not completely familiar with that religion); but doesn't this make the assumption that if you are Muslim, you are automatically Islamic?

Yeah, I know that's how it's kinda played out (much like how the BKDs here in America insist we are a "Christian Nation" - despite things like the Treaty of Tripoli and other documents to the contrary) - but that doesn't make it objectively true.

Of course, in some cases (even here in the west), if you dare mention such a thing within 'the faith' - you could find yourself on the other side of an honor killing by your own family (especially if you are a woman; such enlightenment).

To think, this is the exact same place many evangelical Christians want to take our nation too as well. Lovely.

jgh• 9 years ago

Eh, there's J-Date and Christian Mingle (also e-Harmony tends to be pretty christian).

austenallred2• 9 years ago

It's a (large) niche market with specific needs that aren't met by traditional dating sites. Why is building a product to cater to those needs bad or wrong?

If I'm a Muslim and I want to date/marry a Muslim and there are a lot of things I have to solve for as a result of that, it makes a whole lot of sense that technology help me solve for those things.

awjr• 9 years ago

TBH the approach Muzmatch seems to be based on seems rather interesting.

-: Completely privacy (nickname and pictures hidden), particularly from family. (Family shame)

-: GPS validation, selfie verification etc. (Anti-catfishing)

-: Walis, or guardians in on the chat. (Family approval)

-: Rewards for good behaviour. (Anti abuse & dick pic behaviour)

It's impressive, culturally, but as a father of a 13 year old girl, some of these features appeal. Yes I am protective because I've seen how bad men can be on dating sites. However I recognise I have no right to impose myself on her privacy. Yes, educate her about the darker side of online dating. Yes, be that friend that does not judge and is there to support her. BUT no, do not control her. That is simply wrong. I love the fact my daughter has an independent spirit and does, rightly, stand up to me when she feels she is right and feels comfortable talking to me about pretty much anything (or her mum ;) ). Most importantly we trust her and give her the privacy she cherishes.

The thing is these dating apps are for 18+ year olds and that is when this logically fails for me. What right do I have to control an adult in such a way?

As an aside, about being a father. When my daughter was born I spoke to my neighbour who had two 18 & 19 year old girls. I asked him how it all works. His answer was "You have them until they are 14, and then you are there to pick up the pieces."

The other night I took a taxi home and started talking to the driver. He mentioned his 13 year old daughter was only allowed a basic phone and 1 hour of Facebook, observed, every night, just in case. I was surprised. I just regularly ensure my daughter knows about the various dangers and that she can always talk to us. I've seen this too many times though. Parents blocking porn web sites, then me hopping onto their computer and showing them porn on twitter.

Anyway getting back onto Muzmatch. I suspect it is a good cultural match, where the idea that women/men cannot be trusted and must be controlled, but still providing the ability for women/men to hide their identity from their own family and friends to prevent that control.

shakkhar3• 9 years ago

Completely privacy (nickname and pictures hidden), particularly from family. (Family shame) ... Walis, or guardians in on the chat. (Family approval) ... The thing is these dating apps are for 18+ year olds and that is when this logically fails for me. What right do I have to control an adult in such a way?

It is not about you enforcing this on your daughter. The religion demands it. So if the app also facilitates that, it will appeal more to the target audience.

patrickaljord2• 9 years ago

It is not about you enforcing this on your daughter. The religion demands it.

Coming from a Muslim family myself, I can tell that Islam has so many rules most Muslims (if not all, given that some of these rules are contradictory) ignore most of them and only follow the ones they strongly agree with and are part of their culture since probably pre-Islamic times. So no, I would have to say I disagree here, Muslims who control their daughters like that do it because they want it, not because "the religion demands it" though that's the primary excuse they use (I've seen fathers who drink alcohol and eat pork for example or don't pray and yet still go full control freak on their daughters "because Islam demands it".). And yes, this goes for most religions but because Muslims tend to be much more culturally conservative than others, it shows a lot more in their cases.

anovikov• 9 years ago

I can't see it working, dating sites aren't for people who get married quickly. They, as every site, need users stick for years, or LTV will be too low and not cover the UAC. So, it should be casual dating as in: 7000 contacts and 200 met in person over 12 years (me on mamba.ru). Users like me are definitely very profitable. Users who see 100 profiles, chat with 20, and get married and leave, aren't.

bookmarkacc• 9 years ago

What about users who chat and leave but get help planning their wedding through the app?

whipoodle6• 9 years ago

Good point! Nice to see someone thinking this through instead of just clutching pearls.

shakkhar3• 9 years ago

Users like me are definitely very profitable

What is the LTV of a user like you? match.com charges ~$20 per year. How many years are you planning to use it (or any other dating website / app) for?

You are missing a key point here - this is a matchmaking app masquerading as a dating app. So they can extract a lot more value from a customer despite their brief tenure on the app.

gurubavan• 9 years ago

let me tell you about a site called http://gurubhavan.in/

hkon• 9 years ago

Does it allow the parents to swipe for you? If it does it will be a big hit.

bitwize• 9 years ago

Well, too bad. Look what happened to ChristianMingle. From what I hear, most of the men on there aren't even Christian, they're just cruising for what they think is an easy lay.

whipoodle6• 9 years ago

Most people I know see religion as something people slowly liberate themselves from

Maybe others think that view of religion is closed-minded. :)

Chris20487• 9 years ago

"others" == religious people?

whipoodle6• 9 years ago

Maybe, I couldn't really say. I'm not religious and I do find that view closed-minded myself.

dang• 9 years ago

Generic arguments about religion are off topic here. They're not interesting (because they're so generic) and they lead to horrible flamewars.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14920276 and marked it off-topic.

s3nnyy• 9 years ago

Younas — a young Muslim in London — bootstrapped and built the initial app himself [...] he plans monetizing beyond the business of matching by offering related services, such as, for example, helping users find a wedding venue.

In London there is a parallel legal system that does run counter to British law. Here hidden-camera footage how a "Muslim judge" suggests to a woman, she should just accept being beaten on a regular basis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gZCFdHkd4A

Hence, counseling or after-marriage check-ins with the women whether they are threated well would be a real help.

comnetxr• 9 years ago

So, for example, all users have to take a selfie via the app so their profile can be manually verified to help boost trust and keep out spammers; users don’t have to provide their real name though, and can choose not to display photos on their profiles or blur photos unless there’s an active match. Users are also asked to rate others they have interacted with — and these ratings are fed into the matching algorithm, with the aim of surfacing “quality users” and promoting positive behaviors.

All of this sounds like a big improvement on Tinder. I'm not Muslim, but I'd try a dating site that worked like this. They should open it up but allow users to restrict to the Muslim subset if they choose.

EGreg• 9 years ago

Basically this is an app for "orthodox Muslims". As soon as other, more secular Muslims join the site, there may be more than just "halfway there".

"I think some people think it’s just like JCrush for Jews. But it’s totally not about that from where we stand."

I think they are implying Muslims are proportionally less promiscuous than Jews. I wonder if this is so :)

Orthodox Jews don't even touch ther dates until marriage!

Grue3• 9 years ago

Does it allow same-sex dating?

bogomipz10• 9 years ago

That's actually an interesting question. Maybe someone who's used it can confirm?

dingo_bat• 9 years ago

Are you kidding?

antihero• 9 years ago

Anecdote but for some reason when I signed up to Minder (actually is a Muslim Tinder) when I was drunk, for some reason it thought I was a woman (probably because also drunk at previous date I'd selected female pronouns on Facebook), so in an interesting turn of events, the Muslim dating app was suggesting I date men.

becga• 9 years ago

I previously worked with a guy who was Muslim. He told me he was looking for a wife on shaadi.com

moretai• 9 years ago

This is nothing but a cash grab.

bogomipz10• 9 years ago

The article states:

"Not just market size — we’re more than 100 times larger market than the Jewish market, for example — but the real difference is the seriousness and intent."

Is that not kind of self-righteous and condescending? What is the implication, that people from other religious groups or those without religious affiliations somehow aren't serious about meeting someone? Or that their intentions are not quite as sincere? Why is this somehow their exclusive domain?

YC-backed Muzmatch definitely doesn’t want to be Tinder for Muslims

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