Romantic Love: The problem with Western cultures

http://www.nickyee.com/ponder/love.html

by mgh2 • 16 years ago

210 87 16 years ago

msluyter• 16 years ago

Co-incidentally, I recently read the book referenced in the article:

http://www.amazon.com/Love-Limerence-Experience-Being/dp/081...

While it's short on prescriptions for actually overcoming limerence, I found it helpful in at least understanding the mechanisms driving my limerent feelings. If you want help coping with limerence, the tribes.com forum may be of some help (though a fair amount of it is simply people broadcasting their neuroses). I have found some nuggets of good advice however:

http://tribes.tribe.net/limerence

It's hard to say whether limerence is in and of itself a problem. Tennov takes a NPOV. Certainly, if you're supposed to be working and instead you're daydreaming about someone it's a problem. Like a lot of things, it lies on a spectrum from pleasurable to pathological or dangerous. Still, I would agree with the author's point that understanding the distinction between limerance and love can be helpful.

jeb• 16 years ago

I somehow discovered how to overcome limerence. The answer is simple - you have to trick the very subconsious that is forcing you have these feelings with it's own methods.

Basically, what you do is that as soon as you start thinking of this person, imagine a series of events, starting with this person actually becoming yours, that lead to your utter fall and destruction. Like : "We fall in love, I go broke, cockroaches swarm all over the house". Done for two to three weeks, it basically cured me of all these feelings.

asdflkj• 16 years ago

Sweet! I've got this other problem, though--I really enjoy sunshine. Anyone got a cure for that?

nooneelse2• 16 years ago

When finally tired of an unrequited limerence many years back, I used anger. Whenever they came to mind, I made myself get angry at them. I would reminded myself of all the things they had done knowing that it would string me along in that state just a while longer or some small slight that, because of my feelings, they had known they could get away with, or something like that. Very similar to your method, I didn't let them enter my mind without drawing up this rebuttal feeling. About three weeks later it was amazing how free and clear my head felt. Like part of me had been asleep or drugged for years.

dtf• 16 years ago

The cure for limerance is simple: time. Namely, 2 to 3 years.

cousin_it• 16 years ago

I'd go further and say that the cure is psychological time, i.e. having more intense experiences per hour. You have to isolate yourself completely from the object of your infatuation and then try to have very intense days, like those you had in childhood or boot camp. Do new stuff, win battles, lose battles, have sex with a lot of people. From my experience, this will cure your infatuation way faster than sitting in a room. If all parts of your mind are constantly occupied with other stuff, you go very quickly from "can't stop thinking about him/her" to "wow, a full hour without unhappy thoughts and I feel okay", to a day clean, then a week...

ido6• 16 years ago

Why would you want to overcome limerence?

My problem is that it tends to go away after awhile...

philh• 16 years ago

Because if not reciprocated, it can be horribly depressing.

sliverstorm4• 16 years ago

You have, in essence, answered your own question.

My ex was convinced with the right person, limerence will last forever. Maybe she was right, but I very very very strongly suspect she was not.

Overcoming it is useful because:

1: It will eventually end

2: When it does end, you'll be in for a shock- to say the least

Essentially, if it lasted forever things would be great and this wouldn't be a problem. Since it doesn't, the sooner you get past it the better as far as making life choices goes.

hernan7• 16 years ago

Sorry, non-native English speaker here... Never heard the term "limerence before". Seems to be a kinda-sorta synonym of "infatuation", no? Why everybody in this thread is using it instead of just "infatuation" -- some Internet meme that I'm not aware of?

elblanco• 16 years ago

"Infatuation" has a slightly different meaning distinct from "love" while "limerence" is a distinct and precise form of "love". Just like love can be an umbrella term for a number of similar but different emotions (love like siblings, love between parents and children, love between friends, etc.), "limerence" might also be called a "crush" or "puppy love" (if I read the article correctly).

I think you can probably use it loosely as a synonym with infatuation in most contexts but the meaning is ever so slightly different.

I never heard it before today either, English has a far too many words.

gruseom2• 16 years ago

It's not a real word. It was coined by the author of the book, and http://www.google.com/search?q=limerence makes clear that usage of it is limited to discussions based on the book.

It's a strange neologism, too, that doesn't sound right to my ear. What's the etymology? The only thing I can think of is limen (threshold) as in liminal and subliminal.

losvedir• 16 years ago

>Why everybody in this thread is using it instead of just "infatuation" -- some Internet meme that I'm not aware of?

Because that was the term used in the article.

edited to add: Though, to me, you're right: I don't see much difference between limerance and infatuation.

wallflower• 16 years ago

Can we experience limerence with new projects? The project at hand becomes your whole new world.

I wonder if the reticular activating system has anything to do with it.

As I remember from the director's commentary track on some Almodovar film: Love isn't love unless there is reciprocity. (This was when some male character is stalkily going through the things in a woman's abode)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system

klodolph• 16 years ago

"Limerence" specifically refers to infatuation with a person. "Cathexis" is a broader term which also applies to objects or ideas.

endlessvoid942• 16 years ago

This is a fantastic article. How many people are aware of this distinction, and the idea that you have to be comfortable with who someone really is rather than your vision of them?

Hopefully it's rather high :-/

ardit33• 16 years ago

I had no clue until about a year and half ago. I had that intense limerence feeling, (with alll the irrationality walking in the sky when I saw her type of thing). It is intense. BUT when I was scrutinizing that person closely I knew that she was somebody that I knew wasn't right for me (in the long term anyways). So, something was wrong with my primitive instinct lying to me to be attracted to this person a lot, while the rational side was saying that this is not right, especially when scrutinizing/imagine the future.

I eventually found the term, and looked at it closely. Sadly I could describe my two other 'loves' of my life (or what I thought was the feeling of love then), as simple limerence.

But I guess, the shattering of an illusion is a price you pay for maturing up.

endlessvoid942• 16 years ago

Yeah, otherwise known as "disillusionment" I guess.

sliverstorm4• 16 years ago

Not nearly enough people. I do suspect though some basic common sense can occasionally save people, including those who know nothing about the concept.

For example, I have experienced limerence with several women who were completely untenable. The primary example was deep into recreational drugs, and my basic sensibilities knew enough to fight back. I WANTED to do something, but I didn't even have to engage my higher brain and think about it to know it was a bad idea. Only problem is that limerence is over 3 years old and still not dead.

jfriedly• 16 years ago

I have understood the difference between love and limerence for a while now, but never quite grasped the idea that we need to enjoy the real person instead of our own fantastical vision of who they are. My understanding of the distinction between forms of love comes from examining the four Greek words for love, where philia is compassionate love and eros is limerence, but this hadn't led to enough insight for me to see past the "angel" form and become comfortable with the real person. As a high schooler and having only experienced limerence once, I think that if I can figure out the distinction then most of my peers can too, but that's not to say that we don't still frequently fall in love with a vision or fervently believe that this love can last forever.

lvecsey• 16 years ago

Even the notion of being human is outdated. There were previous century views and now we're in a new era, with deeper understanding of what makes us up. We've gone from a blob of living matter, to a horrendously intricate biological machine.

itistoday• 16 years ago

That period stretched from a few centuries ago (Newtonian mechanics) to the first half of the 20th century. Now, I think, we're heading toward the understanding that "intricate biological machine" might not be the best of models, and that "blob of living matter" is worth revisiting.

The notion of world-as-machine is becoming dated I think, as a more organic understanding arises, both from the mixing of western and eastern ideas, as well as better physics.

jerf2• 16 years ago

Also, I'd observe that our machines have become more complicated. The complexity of the first car is nothing whatsoever next to the complexity of your cell phone. The more complicated our machines get, the more organic their behavior has been getting quite naturally. (Indeed, one of the most important things about building large systems is learning how to write code that works less "organically", lest the problems that organic machines tend to have overwhelm you, things like errant state propagation and such that cause weird, weird bugs five minutes after the trigger.)

may2• 16 years ago

Most useful thing I've read in years.

sashthebash• 16 years ago

Indeed.

Nothing really related to Hacker News, but that's one of the reasons why I "love" the site... those great off topic articles that apply to almost everybody and that let you see that there is a world beyond bits and bytes.

may2• 16 years ago

Exactly.

tmsh• 16 years ago

I think it works like this:

You think you see something amazing. You really want that. You are a human, with a brain, which is flexible and adaptable. So if you don't get what you want, you adapt and try to make the best of it, rationalizing further and further from the truth. The mind, if resolved, can adapt and see the better parts of things. A monk who lives in a post-apocalytic world could, for example, really enjoy a blooming daisy. Same pattern.

But then other things come along. And finally you move on.

Re: [oatmeal]...this is true love because it can be everlasting, but this is not the love script that we are bombarded with from every literary or entertainment form in our lives.

I would just say, in defense of fairy tales, that some nice morals are (a) it's good to be optimistic and (b) you should step up and win. It's good practice. Seems unrealistic or even unhealthy to promote such behavior sometimes. And there is a balance. But sometimes you should step up and win.

This is particularly because human infants cannot cling onto their mothers the way all primate infants can (a consequence of hairlessness and shorter arms).

Awesome.

...the optimal middle area...

What? That's wrong. Premature optimization. There's nothing wrong with more diversity, esp. regarding immune systems.

For as long as we project god-like idealizations onto our romantic partners and demand that they make us happy as the fairy tales describe, we will never truly love them as human beings.

Yeah, but clearly the qualities of steadfastness and adaptability in limerence can also be found in the qualities of steadfastness and adaptability in marriage. The difficult parts, in limerence and in marriage (though the latter I am just guessing about) are in those moments of honesty with yourself and reality.

zeynel1• 16 years ago

"The prince and princess merely change forms and show up on TV sitcoms, movies and fill the roles in novels, plays and even songs. The same story is being re-enacted over and over again for all ages."

I think if we recognize that human organism -the individual system called human body- is a programmable organism like a computer -and tv and movies program this organism- then we would be taking a step toward understanding this concept called -love-

ericd2• 16 years ago

Wow. I've had some girlfriends who I was not strongly limerant about, and that always bugged me when I thought about it, to the point that I thought marriage was probably out of the question. This despite the fact that I really enjoyed being with them, and had "compassionate love" for them. I tried to remind myself that that was probably Disney talking, but it's as if it has been almost hard coded into my brain.

Best article I've read in months.

AndyKelley5• 16 years ago

I feel like I've been hit by the other end of the spectrum. Girls have dumped me saying they only want to be friends, but then when I stop returning their calls they get really upset.

loewenskind5• 16 years ago

What do you mean? Some girls tried to play you and you responded (correctly) by cutting them off. What does this have to do with infatuation?

nooneelse2• 16 years ago

Good article, but it doesn't back up the title given to it here.

frossie• 16 years ago

I am guessing the justification for the (admittedly editorialised) title lies in this extract:

The central paradox of limerence is that someone who is actively limerent feels like they are experiencing the most unique, rapturous experience in the world even though limerence seems to have fairly universal characteristics (at least in Western cultures, although it could be argued that traditional Asian cultures do understand limerence but don't use it as a basis for marriage)

Of course it's not as simple as that. Even in the West there are many different, and complex, reasons that people chose to get married, and I am sure the same is the case in Asian cultures. But as a culture-wide generalisation, I guess there is some truth in it.

The thing I find peculiar sometimes in the West is not so much the fact that so much emphasis is placed on the limerence phase, but that the companionate phase is so... almost scorned. I am pretty sure that biologically and culturally the point of the former is to get us to the latter.

ca98am79• 16 years ago

For those interested, I recommend a book that has similar ideas and completely changed my view of love: The Art of Loving, by Erich Fromm

Rod• 16 years ago

"LOVE, n. A temporary insanity curable by marriage or by removal of the patient from the influences under which he incurred the disorder. This disease, like caries and many other ailments, is prevalent only among civilized races living under artificial conditions; barbarous nations breathing pure air and eating simple food enjoy immunity from its ravages. It is sometimes fatal, but more frequently to the physician than to the patient."

-Ambrose Bierce

mgh25• 16 years ago

I understood everything about this awesome quote, just not the last part about the physician...can you please elaborate on that?

shaddi• 16 years ago

If being in love is the disease, the physician is the one who tries to stop that from happening: interfere in someone's pursuit of love and you're likely going to face negative consequences!

anyo• 16 years ago

I've been limerant twice in my life, I'm 21 and I can say both were so far the worst times of my life. The only cure is never seeing the person again or putting a bullet in your head. I can see how it can bring joy to those for which it is reciprocated, for me it sucks and I wish it never happens again.

ido6• 16 years ago

Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true.

loewenskind5• 16 years ago

The feeling is useless, sex is both much more fun and actually real. Personally I thought it was an awful thing that happened once and then you weren't susceptible to it anymore. I had no idea it could happen again.

pavlov• 16 years ago

Interesting points and well-written. The title given is certainly misleading.

Quite honestly I don't think I've ever experienced this feeling. I have been the "limerent object" as a teenager, though. It felt simply horrible that someone was intrusively obsessing about me for years, seemingly with no regard for how I actually felt about it.

For a long time afterwards, I was convinced that "love" is a socially acceptable front for something entirely selfish which has nothing to do with communication or compassion.

Tycho5• 16 years ago

Not trying to be nosy, but, what qualified as 'intrusively' obsessing? Would it still bother you if you were aware of the obsession but not subject to any intrusive actions?

julius_geezer2• 16 years ago

It is interesting that he can manage an essay of such length without mentioning Stendahl, whose _On Love_ isn't that hard to find--wasn't before Amazon, actually. One trusts that Ms.es Hatfield and Tennoy found room for him in the bibliography.

And what in the world might be the proposed derivation of "limerence"? Wikipedia offers no hint, though it does use the word "crystallization", which Stendahl I believe popularized in this context.

pmichaud• 16 years ago

I'm thinking it comes from "liminal," which is a big concept in literature.

julius_geezer2• 16 years ago

I was hoping it came from "limerick", a not-so-big concept in literature, but your guess sounds better than mine.

mgh25• 16 years ago

Hello everybody, I am the one who posted this article and it is because I have been trying to find an answer for so many troubling things for such a long time (wait to see my post on why I shared this)...among them is that this might be the reason to the 50% divorce rate in the United States. But before we go into that, I have a question for all of you: Can someone you have been limerent about, being nonrequited, dissapointed...basically having gone through the whole pain process...still be trusted and cared about? This is actually the main reason why I sought for an answer for so long.

jimmyjim• 16 years ago

Of course. The whole point of Yee's writing is that it's imperative to transition into a companionate phase from the ephemeral and almost-superficial limerent one.

ytNumbers• 16 years ago

When it comes to advice: Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it. And those who want it the most, like it the least. There's plenty of fish in the sea. Life's too short to waste it with people who can't/won't return your affections. Of course, if masochism is your thing, by all means go ahead and reopen that old wound, and bring on the pain.

mgh25• 16 years ago

Except that the limerent one was her, and I am just trying to give advice of the very pain she taught me. Yeah, I admit, it is complicated.

ido6• 16 years ago

Why do this to yourself? Go on with your life and find someone else to trust and care about.

There is no shortage of humans in the world.

AndyKelley5• 16 years ago

I was with it until

"In the end, the basis of a stable relationship is founded on a love that emerges not in spite of but because of the other person’s flaws and weaknesses, because ultimately it is our imperfections that make us human."

It seems more logical to me to love someone in spite of their flaws.

Tycho5• 16 years ago

Rather than getting rid of 'limerent' feelings, is it possible to channel them into motivation for something else? For instance, Y loves unobtainable woman X, but sees there's no reason why X should want Y, therefore sets about a disciplined program of self-improvement and wealth/prospect/prestige-accumulation in the hope that X may one day be attracted.

It comes back to the universal problem of how to focus ones mind in order to become more productive.

rue• 16 years ago

No, it is not.

georgieporgie4• 16 years ago

> therefore sets about a disciplined program of self-improvement > and wealth/prospect/prestige-accumulation in the hope that > X may one day be attracted.

That's basically the plot of every mind-poisoning, B.S. movie fed to American (all Western?) youth.

So many men, especially young men, believe in this concept of winning over their love. Somehow he'll make her love him (creepy overtones of misogyny). He'll convince her that he's worth loving.

If you really like yourself, then that's good enough. If you're not happy with yourself, yeah, improve. But don't ever think you need to improve for someone else[1]. Anyone who actually responds to this is a manipulative jerk who will gradually up the stakes to watch you dance.

If X doesn't win over Y, he should consider whether he feels he needs to improve in any areas, pursue any changes, then see how things go when he bumps into Z, having forgotten about Y.

[1] - exception: unquestionably defective personality traits (alcoholism, gambling addiction, abusiveness) when you're in a long-term relationship and you both agree to work on it.

Tycho5• 16 years ago

Personally I think the more 'poisonous' idea is that 'you are who you are' and that people don't respond to actual values/achievements. Who wants to be loved in spite of what's good about them, of what they try to do.

The films you talk about usually show a very superficial process of improvement, typically involving dressing in cooler clothes, lots of silly shenanigans, taking on some new hobbies, and going places to 'hang out.' I'm talking about actual achievements, starting with getting yourself in shape and becoming more entertaining, but extending to meeting your academic potential, finding a good career, developing new skills, committing to side projects, establishing a network of admirable friends, broadening your horizons etc. Things that would serve X well regardless of whether they really do impress Y in the end. With the quality of life possible in the West on a meagre wage, it's tempting to coast through life achieving a fraction of your potential

thornad• 16 years ago

We are very attracted when we project on the other that which we repress or feel missing in ourselves, a part of our own un-developed, unaccepted or unknown true nature. Therefore the need to merge.

Best thing in this case is to see what that is in ourselves. Cherish the relationship, while knowing the other is not neccessarily what we project on them, but a catalyst for us to know ourselves better.

Same thing goes for intense hate by the way. It's all towards unowned features of ourselves, but we project it on the other when they have the slightest resemblence to it.

Like the old bard said: "There's so many different worlds / So many different suns / And we have just one world / But we live in different ones"

metra• 16 years ago

Mirror?

mgh25• 16 years ago

As you guys know, the website has been taken down due to excessive traffic...my apologies to Nick Yee, I contacted him to fix this problem.

Thank you,

Trend Guardian publisher

nky335• 16 years ago

It's actually not your fault. My web host is moving the server hosting my domain and they've clearly messed up somehow. I'm in the midst of resolving this with them.

In the mean time, if you google "Love in Four Acts", Google has the article in its cache. Sorry for the inconvenience all.

Nick

mgh25• 16 years ago

It got fixed, thanks!

Romantic Love: The problem with Western cultures

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