“Australians First”: Australia abolishing 457 temporary skilled worker visa

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-18/government-abolishing-457-visas/8450310

by empressplay • 9 years ago

61 33 9 years ago

abc.net.au

a_bonobo4• 9 years ago

This is extremely bad news for Australian science.

I'm a postdoctoral researcher who's on a 457 visa out of my PhD. The new 457 replacement requires 3 years of work experience, so we cannot hire people from overseas who've just finished their PhDs. Without a permanent residency outcome we cannot keep these people after their initial contract (which is my own plan). They doubled the price but that's OK (for us!) since the university's reallocation funds pay for that.

This is short-sighted pandering to the far-right who've been clamoring for this, and science loses.

throwaway-decra• 9 years ago

This is not necessarily a bad thing.

I think most Australians would be aghast that 'foreign nationals' are taking the places of Australians on competitive fellowship grants like the ARC DECRA. Out of 200 fellowships 60 are given to foreign nationals, i.e., 30%.

Personally, I think it is a bad idea to give this type of grant to a foreign national as the researcher will most likely leave Australia once the fellowship is finished as they have little to keep them in the country (extended family, etc). I've seen it so many times...

http://www.arc.gov.au/selection-report-discovery-early-caree...

a_bonobo4• 9 years ago

Where is the problem? 16.5% and 17% is almost identical?

Science has been and always will be an international effort, if you shut out foreign researchers you might as well close down science in Australia. It doesn't matter whether a foreign-born researcher gets an ARC DECRA grant as that money goes to an Australian university anyway, funds Australian students etc., it's not like a DECRA grant goes to your own bank account and you can only spend it on yourself.

I've seen the opposite to you, researchers coming from overseas because no-one else has their skills inside Australia, training Australian students here, and then staying on as PR. Scientists who leave Australia still keep on collaborating with Australian researchers and universities, it's not like they burn all bridges. I co-supervise with quite a few overseas-based researchers who left Australia for career opportunities, they're still adjunct here.

sengork2• 9 years ago

I would distinguish between PhD and IT work when it comes to 457 visas. In practice 457, within the IT field at least, has rarely served its intended purpose and often been misused. Likewise it has deterred many locals from considering IT as an area of study.

On the other hand PhD applicants are much closer to the intended purposes of the 457. For example research cannot be developed in the same manner and quantity as IT.

viraptor3• 9 years ago

Likewise it has deterred many locals from considering IT as an area of study.

That's a bold statement. Have you got some good source? I'm having a problem imagining a statistically relevant number of people saying "I'm interested in pursuing one of the skills marked by the government as experiencing national shortage, (for years!) but I won't because immigrants will take those positions instead"

valuearb2• 9 years ago

Struggling to understand why any country would not want more smart people, whether scientists or IT. On average I would expect anyone willing to sacrifice by leaving friends and family to move part way across he world in the diligent search for opportunity would be an asset to their new country.

Khaine3• 9 years ago

It really is good news. 457 visas have been massively abused. Last week there was an article about 475 visas being used to bring in real estate agents from China to sell homes in Australia. During the mining boom they were exploited to bring in 'chefs' to work at mcdonalds in mining towns. These aren't jobs where there are skills shortages. These are just jobs to keep wages down.

viraptor3• 9 years ago

That doesn't seem like there's a need to change the program. It seems like gov should just enforce the existing rules, or make position descriptions more precise. McD position != Chef. Real estate agents shouldn't be on the list if there's no shortage.

Enforcing the current rules and spot checks that would make employers less likely to cheat on descriptions should be enough.

valuearb2• 9 years ago

If the demand for chefs and real estate agents are so high that the costs of paying for visa applications and relocating them from half way round the world are worth it, I'm not worried about the domestics. They are doing fine.

cylinder• 9 years ago

PhD should be able to get points for independent or state nominated migration though which is a far better system than 457.

a_bonobo4• 9 years ago

This doesn't really work either anymore, changed on the same day. Almost all biology and science related jobs have been deleted from the list of skilled migration jobs (NOT just 457, this includes all skills-based migration).

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-a...

Removed:

- Life Scientist (General)

- Microbiologist

- Biochemist

- Biotechnologist

- Geophysicist

- Natural and Physical Science Professionals NEC (this one is a catchall)

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-a...

phsource• 9 years ago

Looking at this list, the professions that Turnbull wants to remove is incredibly broad. As a Canadian in the US, I'm not 100% clear, but it seems like the 457 visa is a lot like the H1-B.

With that comparison, it's really surprising to see professions like:

  * Chemical engineer
  * Petroleum engineer
  * Electronics engineer
  * Web developer

on the list at the bottom.

If someone announced they were taking these professions off the H1-B list in the US, I'm pretty sure there'd be a huge uproar. This is not even to mention that lots of these sound pretty important for Australia's resource economy. Can someone educate me on the situation from a more Australian point of view?

cynix• 9 years ago

A lot of "programmers/web developers" on this visa are scammers looking for a quick way to gain permanent residency (apparently it's a lot easier for a random person to claim they're a programmer than other professions that require actual skill). There's a whole industry of businesses providing "employment" to these people for a fee. I think the idea is to replace this visa with one that has more stringent skill/language requirements to weed out these scammers.

joshka• 9 years ago

It's easy to suggest this type of fraud and assume it's true based on merit. Do you have any proof of the above statements or is this speculation?

moomin• 9 years ago

Okay, how about petroleum engineer? Lot of hair dressing salons advertising for those?

richev• 9 years ago

I can't comment on the 457 requirements specifically, but I was granted a Skilled Independent visa (subclass 189) last year, as a "Developer Programmer". In lieu of a degree that would be considered at least a major in Computer Science I had to supply detailed references going back ten years. Certainly not easy.

kakarot• 9 years ago

Whether intentional or not, you imply that programming does not involve an "actual" skillset and that is quite a bold claim to make on Hacker News.

empressplay4• 9 years ago

"Web Developer" is often "code" for bringing in a worker whose job is really to do something else (typically menial.)

Also, these roles are jobs that Australians can be trained to do and there's no reason to source them externally.

gluggymug• 9 years ago

A few years ago there was an exposé on 457 abuse in the IT industry on national tv.(http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3786315.htm)

Hence the "TCS" jab from empressplay. A lot of IT contracts for major companies in Australia are outsourced to multinational IT companies. Those multinationals use a lot of 457 workers and get the big contracts via undercutting and paying low wages to poor migrants.

Then various politicians have attacked the 457 scheme over the years. Most recently, one government backbencher from a regional mining area where unemployment is still very high threatened to quit over it.

It's reputation has been shady for quite a while. It is always raised in a bad light by the media due to abuses.

I do feel that this current move has unfairly affected legit skilled researchers like a_bonobo though. How they manage to be lumped in with 457s brought in by outsourcing companies makes zero sense.

empressplay4• 9 years ago

Hey TCS, don't let the door hit you on the way out ;)

Vanit• 9 years ago

The company I work for has hired 2 students via 457s that completed their engineering work experience with us during their degree. Finding high quality employees this way worked great for us, it's a shame that it won't work anymore, as I understand it.

forgottenacc57• 9 years ago

457 visas were very inflexible for the visa holder .... you needed to be sponsored by the employer and not many employers were interested in doing that.

thomas-b• 9 years ago

A lot of it is summarized here: http://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/abolit... Basically, current holder are fine, 457 Visa will also keep being issued until March 2018 with some extra restrictions starting 1st of July.

Khaine3• 9 years ago

Shortcomings with 457 visas have been identified by Dr Joanna Howe, a senior lecturer in law at the University of Adelaide (see here and here) as well as in the recent Senate report entitled A National Disgrace: The Exploitation of Temporary Work Visa Holders[1].

The four major problems with the system that need fundamental reform, namely: * There are way too many occupations on the skills shortages list. * Those working under the skill level 1 (so-called “Managers and Professionals”) and skill level 2 (so-called “Associate Professionals”) are not subject to any labour market testing to determine whether an Australian can do the job first. Hence, nearly 80% of total 457 visa holders are not currently subject to labour market testing. * Where labour market testing is required it can be overcome by putting an ad on Facebook or other social media and that is enough to show that you’ve tested the labour market – basically a farce. * The 457 visa system is not sufficiently responsive either to higher levels of unemployment, or to labour market changes in specific skilled occupations.

[1] http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Sena...

“Australians First”: Australia abolishing 457 temporary skilled worker visa

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