Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/4575/

by mishmax • 16 years ago

140 85 16 years ago

drcode• 16 years ago

note that this article is from the 1980s, not recent (though still accurate)

stcredzero• 16 years ago

The value in this article is not in its particular facts. The real value comes from realizing that such corporate societal manipulation happens all the time to this day.

jrockway• 16 years ago

That's what makes this article a classic. You could change the date to today's, and nothing would seem out of place.

hngryhppos• 16 years ago

Most of the article talks about stuff dating way-prior to 1982. And the economics described still apply today.

w00pla2• 16 years ago

Yeah. The article should maybe deal in depth with the start of De Beers.

De Beers was basically formed by an English colonialist (Cecil John Rhodes). He controlled a company which basically owned a country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_South_Africa_Company).

He also had his own private army and tried to overthrow a sovereign government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameson_Raid).

cromulent2• 16 years ago

Rhodesia was named for him. He also set up the Rhodes Scholarship, which enabled people like Bill Clinton and Bob Hawke to go to Oxford.

jpablo• 16 years ago

Previous discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283

jleader• 16 years ago

This article appears to be an excerpt from a longer book on the subject: Epstein, Edward Jay (1982). "THE DIAMOND INVENTION"

The author has a website, http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/prologue.htm with what appears to be the complete contents of the book. I don't know if he's updated it since 1982.

pbiggar8• 16 years ago

Epic book, worth a read if anyone enjoyed the article.

jackfoxy• 16 years ago

Interesting, but too long for me to read right now. Does anyone know why De Beers seems to be exempt from U.S. anti-trust laws?

dmm• 16 years ago

They aren't a US company.

gojomo3• 16 years ago

They operate in the US; they are subject to US law.

gojomo3• 16 years ago

There's a longstanding case still bouncing around the court system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers_Diamonds_Antitrust_Lit...

illumin8• 16 years ago

"The settlement provides $295 million to purchasers of diamonds and diamond jewelry, including $130 million to consumers."

Does anyone think it seems like a very low number? Just $130 million for consumers, considering the cartel has been operating for decades and brought in billions?

erlanger• 16 years ago

Pop history of the diamond trade.

ortusdux• 16 years ago

Fun fact: If you get a diamond nice and hot (blow torches work great) and then drop it into some pure oxygen, it will burn like the hunk of charcoal it is.

paulgerhardt2• 16 years ago

Relevant article on the synthetic diamond trade from Wired last year: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html

edit: oops I mean 2003; 11.09 was the issue number

wmf• 16 years ago

From 2003, not last year. Here's a 2007 update: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.02/start.html

WorkerBee• 16 years ago

I think the link is wrong - that article is on the Concorde aircraft.

steve194• 16 years ago

Does anybody know where I could buy a synthetic clear diamond?

weeksie2• 16 years ago

Don't bother they're about as expensive as natural clear diamonds.

pbiggar8• 16 years ago

They don't come any larger than 0.3 karats, which is too small for a solitaire. You can't get them to match either, which makes them bad for side stones. I tried.

A good alternative is Canadian diamonds, which are not owned by DeBeers, not mined or polished by slaves, and not the cause of any conflict. That solves about half the problems with diamonds.

Get them from Brilliant Earth (I'm not employed there, just a very satisfied customer.)

matwood• 16 years ago

You could always check out moissanite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite

Someone would have to really study the ring to realize it wasn't diamond.

Plus it first came from meteorites which puts it high on the geek scale ;)

EEFranklin• 16 years ago

That's an old article. Gemesis still just makes orange-yellows. Apollo makes white around .5ct. D.NEA has yellows, blue to 1.3ct and white to 1ct.

steve194• 16 years ago

My favorite quote from the article ...

"Watts found that the diamond had mysteriously shrunk in weight to 1.04 carats. One of the jewelers had apparently switched diamonds during the appraisal"

10ren• 16 years ago

de beers + venter + toxo = bacteria designed to modify your buying behaviour.

raintrees• 16 years ago

Single page version: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/1982/02/have-you-e...

sliverstorm• 16 years ago

Unfortunately, realizing this is not enough. You need your partner to realize it too, or you're out of luck. Good luck presenting a ring of ruby or sapphire; even though they are far prettier stones IMHO, every girl I've met has diamonds stamped into her heart.

rikthevik• 16 years ago

I don't agree that _every_ girl does, but if she doesn't, her friends probably do. :)

weeksie2• 16 years ago

Sapphires perhaps but I think you're stretching it with rubies. Still, diamonds _are_ beautiful, even if they are more common than people think. And there's the other part of the discussion that these threads often miss—the relative rarity of diamonds doesn't matter a bit when the supply is controlled. If at some point in the future the floodgates open, then yes diamonds will be less valuable but their worth is based on what people are willing to pay and right now they are worth quite a bit.

That said, a nice 4ct cushion cut sapphire with pavé diamonds around the stone would knock the socks off of nearly any girl out there so I wouldn't sweat it one way or another.

pbiggar8• 16 years ago

You are basically describing my wife's engagement ring: 2ct yellow saffire, cushion cut, with 3 small diamonds on each side forming a triangle.

It knocks the socks off everyone. That said, we mostly don't correct people who think its diamond (protip: no matter how much you believe it, no-one who just admired your wife's ring wants to hear about blood diamonds or how evil debeers is.)

FYI, rubies are saffires (but you're referring to the colour of course.)

philwelch2• 16 years ago

This was an eye opening experience for me as a younger nerd, something that taught me how truly irrational many humans are. Diamonds are clearly pretty, but buying them props up a cartel and indirectly leads to warfare, enslavement, and death. Clearly a young woman would happily understand why I would have ethical objections to this...

...and to this day, I don't understand how some people's minds even work. (It was a hypothetical discussion and my life wasn't appreciably derailed by this conversation, it's just memorable to me because of the utter incomprehension I felt.)

steve194• 16 years ago

It also of course, provides legitimate employment to a lot of people throughout Africa.

If people stopped buying diamonds, it would be a disaster for the continent.

Saying that, I still would hate to buy something that may have been mined by a slave and purchased by a cartel.

pbiggar8• 16 years ago

If your girlfriend refuses a proposal due to lack of diamonds, you have chosen badly. However, its pretty reasonable for her to refuse if she's dissappointed, so you need to discuss in advance that her ring won't be a diamond. This could be awkward, or worse, it could ruin the surprise.

I got pretty lucky in that I read the article before I met her, and told her about how bad diamonds were early on. That meant we had the discussion years before I proposed. She had diamonds stamped in her heart too, but we compromized, and I went to huge effort to get her an amazing ring.

If the ring is amazing, she'll be OK, and so will her friends.

(My wife points out that she has friends who would have said no, on the basis that if the suitor wouldn't do what she wanted for a proposal, he wasn't the right guy for her. This may sound douchy, but the proposal is hugely important to (some, maybe most) women. So maybe I just got lucky.)

henrikschroder2• 16 years ago

Remember that the diamond engagement ring expectation only exists in a few countries. In most of northern europe both partners wear identical plain gold rings, for example.

noonespecial• 16 years ago

Its been a fantastic fad while it lasts (lasted?) but in the end its always just been "Vans off the wall" for "big people".

I wonder what we'll use next. I've always wanted to give my wife a ring with a bit of a meteorite set in it because, hey, its from outer space. Where does one find such things?

Dove2• 16 years ago

These guys were able to procure some to make dice. You might start by sending them a note and/or following up on the source they mention.

http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Sto...

nitrogen• 16 years ago

The banner at the top of the site boasts about winning a lawsuit to prevent someone else (Hasbro) from creating similarly-shaped dice, but the shapes look like they would have ancient origins. Not exactly my kind of company.

Luc• 16 years ago

They sell them by the kg on eBay. Any jewel maker has the tools to cut a nice piece into the right shape for a ring.

pbiggar8• 16 years ago

A few years ago, my girlfriend and I had an argument about this article and the book it came from. I flat refused to buy diamonds, and obviously she wanted a beautiful engagement ring. The compromise we came to was that if it wasn't a diamond, then it better be fucking amazing, preferably with a yellow saffire.

Long story short, I'm currently on my honeymoon, and her yellow saffire ring blows everyone away.

If your girlfriend turns you down for lack of a diamond, you have probably chosen poorly. However, she might (reasonably) turn you down if she's dissappointed, so make your feelings known long in advance, or you might be in trouble.

Get your rings at Brilliant Earth in SF (I did my shopping online, and was not dissappointed). They are the only ethical jewelers I've found, and I looked hard. My wife's ring has a large yellow saffire (fair trade from Sri Lanka, mined from shallow mines with a low environmental impact), small diamonds from Canada (sadly lab diamonds are not good enough for jewelry yet), and recycled gold.

The ring is pretty unique, and utterly amazing, and I would recommend this route for any ethically minded person.

callmeed• 16 years ago

How bout a pic?

pbiggar8• 16 years ago

Best I can do on the phone right now: http://i.imgur.com/Gj0dp.jpg

zefhous• 16 years ago

My wife has a blue sapphire and she absolutely loves it. As you mentioned, it's very unique and we both like that a lot.

sandGorgon• 16 years ago

There are the Indian Golkonda diamonds - they are the legendary mines from where some of the most famous and treacherous diamonds were mined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golkonda#Diamonds) - or the Panna diamonds, but I would be very surprised if there wasn'nt a De Beers hand in there somewhere.

Andys• 16 years ago

She must be pretty damn happy with it, if you're getting away with browsing news.yc whilst on honeymoon :)

maukdaddy• 16 years ago

Gotta do something while......recovering...

jacquesm• 16 years ago

Spending insane amounts of money on a clump of carbon molecules to declare your love seems to me extremely wasteful. If your s.o. really needs a display of conspicuous consumption over spending your - now joint - funds carefully and wisely you might want to talk it over. Easy come easy go, if you have money left over to throw it out more power to you but most people are not in a position to throw away money like this.

Congratulations to the DeBeers marketing department, they've done an excellent job of making people believe this sort of stuff is needed.

derefr2• 16 years ago

Your point certainly sounds reasonable, but it's not how the human mind works. The point of conspicuous consumption is to make believe that the man is "in a position to throw away money like this", because that (imaginary) man is considered to be a good provider/sexually attractive. Talking about it beforehand would be like telling your kids you were going to dress up as Santa Claus to put presents under the tree—the reality is no different, but the fantasy is ruined.

And DeBeers certainly didn't create the notion of conspicuous consumption as a romantic gesture—women have been receiving silver and gold trinkets for millennia, especially ones adorned with various gemstones. DeBeers just popularized diamonds as the gem to be specifically associated with such gestures—and they're a fairly effective/obvious one, too, since they're eye-catching, distinctive, and easy to adorn oneself with.

Zarkonnen• 16 years ago

So maybe we need a more grown-up fantasy...

anxiousape2• 16 years ago

You are right that the fantasy needs to be played out and its duly mentioned in the article about the woman already expecting a diamond even though the diamond is a surprise gift. This suspense 'game' was what De Beers invented. I mean they could have marketed black rock if it happened to be their line of business.

Hoff• 16 years ago

That rock is a form of marital financial insurance policy, should she decide to bail on you for whatever reason.

It's small, portable and relatively fungible.

She definitely knows that, too.

And yes, you could call it a reverse dowry.

Or a spousal hedge.

dgordon• 16 years ago

No it isn't, at least not when the article was written, and I can't see why that would have changed in the past 30 years. The article discusses how it's basically impossible to sell a diamond for anything near "market value" (as far as that term makes sense in the context of a global near-monopoly) and how a lot of places won't pay cash for diamonds at all.

stbal• 16 years ago

I'm amazed in general at the amount of conformity in people surrounding the whole topic of weddings. Not just the ring (btw, diamond rings for engagement is an American cultural thing as far as I know, in Europe the props are different), but the whole dress code and the mandatory steps involved in the event. Wasn't the future supposed to free us from such conventions? I find it funny especially with people who laugh at religious functions as superstition, and then they embrace a totally arbitrary set of made up rules.

henrikschroder2• 16 years ago

Well, rites are important to us as social beings, and we make them elaborate and heavy with tradition so they feel more important. We've always had them, regardless of religion. There's always a need to mark the occasions of births, adulthood, partnership and death.

Add a bit of capitalist profit-hunger, and you end up with companies doing everything they can to maximize the money people spend on the rites, by manipulating the cultural expectations.

Lendal• 16 years ago

Have you ever tried to convince a woman of this truth about diamonds?

lutorm• 16 years ago

My fiancee and I had this discussion too. In the end, we decided to forego engagement rings all together and just go with a nice set of tungsten carbide wedding bands.

Jeema3000• 16 years ago

If it were the other way around: if women had to buy something in order to gain a man's affection and commitment, it would be considered a servile and sexist tradition. Yet somehow the tradition of men buying expensive engagement rings for women survives. I say the heck with that. If she gets an expensive ring, then I want an expensive ring too. Equal rights! :)

jedberg• 16 years ago

I bought her a ring and then she bought me a TV and surround sound system. I get a hot tub later. Then we'll be about even. :)

Chirael• 16 years ago

This link should have had (1982) after the title. Read the whole article only to be very disappointed that it only covered up to 1982 - wtf?

rman666• 16 years ago

I'm worried it'd fly up my nose! Oh, "sell," not "smell!" My mistake.

anxiousape2• 16 years ago

There are some things you don't learn in college... like the truth about these pieces of carbon

w33dkid• 16 years ago

Never even seen one, and I dont get i why diamonds and gold are given so much value. Its true if someone said... the market is driven by women.

CulturalNgineer• 16 years ago

The lesson here is how co-ordinated messaging (propaganda) can continually shape and re-shape broad cultural memes no matter how stupid the memes are.

While in the case of diamonds it's a matter of wasting money, encouraging inane consumerism and odious environmental practices for the sake of a few wealthy oligarchs...

When the same thing happens in politics...

It encourages meaningless consumerism and odious environmental practices for the sake of a few wealthy oligarchs.

The Lesson: Distrust messages from oligarchs.

Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?

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