Nintendo announced Switch Dev kits are $500

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by shawndumas • 9 years ago

347 129 9 years ago

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webkike• 9 years ago

When I first saw the switch I said that it could potentially become a huge platform for indie developers. This is definitely a step in the right direction, although I don't see why a devkit would even be necessary. Perhaps you're paying for software? Will this open the portable market to indie developers beyond phone games?

iancarroll2• 9 years ago

You are generally paying for unlocked firmware that will run whatever code you want, a feature that pirates would target on retail consoles. IIRC, some consoles also put more RAM in development kits.

jsheard• 9 years ago

The developer Switch does appear to be different hardware, although we don't know the full extent of the differences yet.

Nintendo accidentally showed a devkit with 64GB of internal storage rather than the 32GB you get on retail units.

https://twitter.com/_ferrums/status/826816397238030337

BoorishBears2• 9 years ago

The Wii U kits make with a special version Unity too

VonGuard• 9 years ago

It's a really interesting approach, considering how rampant Wii hacking was. Maybe instead of hacking the consoles, pirates will just buy dev kits, paying Nintendo a bit of a premium for the privilege?

Maybe they're hoping to make a little money on the pirates...

fsckin• 9 years ago

Previous gen Xbox dev kits generally had double the RAM and came with a Visual Studio license. They were very expensive. Now you can pay $19 to unlock a retail Xbox One to run any code you like with a 1GB RAM limit.

supergreg• 9 years ago

Don't DevKits have extra ports for you to connect to the machine?

Roritharr• 9 years ago

Well this has a standard USB Type-C Port for charging. Would be a waste to use it just for that.

vvanders• 9 years ago

Dev kits usually have extra memory for debugging overhead and occasionally hardware for cycle specific profiling and the like.

Most release games run up to 5mb(or less) to the system memory limits so you can't turn on debugging and waiting for LTCG builds which can take 30mins+.

jclardy• 9 years ago

The switch has a USB-C port though, which would be more than enough bandwidth for debugging. Mobile dev's have lived with USB 2.0 connections for building games just fine.

The problem is likely just that it becomes easier to install third party software if there is some kind of Dev mode inside retail units...but Nintendo's locked down hardware gets jailbroken anyways so I don't see the point in hiding it.

kabdib• 9 years ago

The Xbox 360 devkits had extra USB ports for emulating DVD drives and high-speed data transfer. These kits required a fair amount of labor to put together; they were $10,000, and often hard to obtain.

I believe the Xbox One devkits are just production units with different key material (which prevents commercial titles from running, and allows developer-signed bits to run). Theoretically any Xbox One is a devkit, with the right software provisioning.

monocasa4• 9 years ago

Modern game systems are running on top of a real big boy kernel this generation, so you don't need hardware level debugging support. An equivalent to gdbserver is enough.

markcerqueira• 9 years ago

"Huge platform for indie developers." Genuinely curious as to what you are comparing the Switch to (e.g. PS4, PC?) and why you believe this is so?

WillPostForFood• 9 years ago

Let me put forward a few possible reasons.

1: Nintendo portable systems have sold really well, so the market could be large. DS sold 154 millions units, 3DS has sold 65 million units so far. Of course no guarantee Switch will approach that. It is more risky with the hybrid approach, and continuing stiff competition from smartphones and tablets.

2: Handheld/portable systems are often better fits for indie scale games. Smaller/cheaper/shorter games.

3: Less AAA competition. Nintendo systems haven't been getting the biggest, latest greatest AAA titles from the large publishers, so indie games have more room to stand out.

minimaxir• 9 years ago

Doesn't the Xbox One allow you to use normal consoles as Dev kits, effectively making it free? http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/30/11318568/xbox-one-dev-kit

Can't find recent information on PS4 dev kit prices, but given the number of indie games I see on it nowadays (and receive for free with PS+), I imagine it's not unreasonable.

shinymark• 9 years ago

The price is under NDA but I can say that there is separate, special devkit hardware for PS4 and it costs more than a consumer unit.

uptown• 9 years ago

$2500

plafl2• 9 years ago

I find the video game console world so strange. Having to pay just to develop feels wrong but that the price is under NDA feels ridiculous. IMO it shouldn't be legal.

satysin2• 9 years ago

Kind of. You can enable 'developer mode' on a consumer Xbox One which allows you to run unsigned apps (UWP) but it doesn't give you full access like you would get with the full SDK which gives you a load more diagnostic, debugging and telemetry options.

Drakim• 9 years ago

How do they avoid enabling rampart piracy if you can do that to consumer units?

UnoriginalGuy• 9 years ago

Just want to clarify something: This includes a developer Switch console ($300 value retail). I am guessing the extra $200 gives you additional developer tools, documentation, and debug output and of course run self-signed software.

They also sound like they're working with Unreal and Unity to make migrating games easier.

If the developer Nintendo Switch could run other developer's retail games normally, I might consider buying one of these instead of a retail Switch just to tinker on.

Cyph0n• 9 years ago

If the developer Nintendo Switch could run other developer's retail games normally

Judging by past Nintendo console dev kits, this will not be the case.

mileycyrusXOXO• 9 years ago

They also sound like they're working with Unreal and Unity to make migrating games easier.

On a related note, Unreal 4.15 released support for Switch development.[0]

[0] https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/unreal-engine-4-15-release...

sdegutis• 9 years ago

Does this mean it's far more likely that indie game developers can get their games in the legit Nintendo game store rather than some relegated "secondary" game store like Xbox did in the past which nobody ever actually goes to and is usually filled with junk (afaik)?

oxide4• 9 years ago

Xbox Live Arcade was absolutely terrible on the 360, akin to Steam Greenlight.

There were one joke games for a dollar, just like Steam has now.

There were overpriced games, bad games, shit games. Stuff that should be shamefully hidden on a hard drive long forgotten.

I am certainly glad about the death of Greenlight, and from what I can tell all the "indie@xbox" hype leading up to the launch of the One has been unfulfilled, with those games seemingly ending up on the PS4 instead.

I suppose whoever sells the most consoles gets to have the most indie titles.

Then again, I don't own either console, so maybe "indie@xbox" is better off than I'm thinking it is.

Nintendo had indie games like Stardew Valley ported over to the Wii U, IIRC, so I expect to see similar footwork done for the Switch.

erik• 9 years ago

You're confusing Xbox Live Arcade with Xbox Indie Games. In the 360 days, Live Arcade was the featured store that games like Braid and Geometry Wars were sold on. "Xbox Live Indie Games" was a separate storefront that didn't get the same feature space, and was the free-for-all that you are describing.

mratzloff• 9 years ago

There were some good games. For instance, I really enjoyed Arcadecraft [1], a game that had you running an arcade in the 1980s and trying to turn a profit while keeping your machines repaired and up to date.

[1] http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/Arcadecraft/66acd0...

Scuds• 9 years ago

Don't shit on the indies. Everyone has to start somewhere and most of the time it's a student producing something with programmer graphics.

The only difference between Stardew Valley and something that languishes in Steam Greenlight is the years of constant effort and feedback to produce something of quality.

CorpOverreach• 9 years ago

Any clue if this will be able to also play retail games? Given Nintendo's track record of keeping supply up with demand, some of us may consider just paying extra for the dev kit...

revjx2• 9 years ago

This sounds like an excellent step for Nintendo, if it's true. The Wii U & 3DS development kits are fairly expensive if you're hoping to bash out a title in your evenings / weekends. $500 would give a leg up to those people who haven't got a few grand kicking around to try stuff out on console.

I'm hoping they're also going to continue with the Nintendo Web Framework concept, because that was a pretty smart idea too - having a web technology-based execution environment alongside the Unity / Unreal / native stuff.

TheAceOfHearts• 9 years ago

The Switch looks pretty neat, based on what little I've seen. I can't help but hope that it'll get hacked and that a thriving homebrew community will sprout up. When the PSP was around and kicking that was the main thing that got me engaged in the community, and I still remember those years with fondness.

Assuming there's no glaring problems, I'll probably buy one when their new Mario Kart game is available. I definitely have a soft spot for Nintendo. Since real-life has pushed me to become a casual gamer, I've really started to appreciate their simplicity and predictability. For solo, I've enjoyed every Mario platformer, and I'll probably enjoy whatever they release next. For parties, Mario Kart and Smash Brothers are always a blast with friends.

Even though it appears to be largely considered a failure by the community, I'm actually pretty happy with the Wii U. I bought around five or six games, and thoroughly enjoyed em all. As I wrote this, I decided to look up what other games have been released since I last checked, and I just found out I have a new Paper Mario game waiting to play :).

daeken3• 9 years ago

I can't help but hope that it'll get hacked and that a thriving homebrew community will sprout up.

I'm hoping for the same! Set up a wiki to track everything we know about the device, and we also have a Discord chat set up to discuss the process and work on things together. By default the secret parts of the wiki and chat (where we'll be discussing the details of specific findings, exploitation, etc) are hidden; if you want to be involved directly, message me on the Discord and I'll get you set up.

Wiki: http://reswitched.tech/ Chat: https://discord.gg/hSMpnuG

corndoge• 9 years ago

Why hidden? Has it occurred to you that a Nintendo employee could just message you on discord for access?

rhexs• 9 years ago

Good luck. Most of these efforts get swamped with non-technical fanboys and nothing gets done / everything gets leaked. Will be interesting to see if you make progress.

justifier2• 9 years ago

are you familiar with mario maker? amazing and wonderful things happen when nintendo gives their audience access to their tools

the kaizo and puzzle communities are remarkable.. both in consistently high quality levels and the people are warm and welcoming

both kaizo and world record attempts at puzzles are exercises in optimisation

and the puzzles(o) feel like spaces for interacting with algorithms and data structures

(o) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08vhGZZ1FEY#t=17m30s

vanderZwan• 9 years ago

kaizo

You made me remember this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua6pbz3ROvQ

Which I still consider the funniest Let's Play of an abusive game I have ever seen

hashmymustache• 9 years ago

Just finished the new Paper Mario game. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

darpa_escapee• 9 years ago

When the PSP was around and kicking that was the main thing that got me engaged in the community, and I still remember those years with fondness.

I found my dev calling with PSP hacking and homebrew development. Those were good times.

errantspark• 9 years ago

Playing StarFox 64 and Advance Wars on my PSP in class was a high point for sure.

gambiting• 9 years ago

Same for me. Developing games for the NeoFlash and Qj.net competitions for PSP was what got me into programming.

daurnimator2• 9 years ago

Same for me :) The PSP irc channels were the first that I really joined 24/7. I can remember lots of good long nights working on PSP homebrew; I haven't really had that same sense of community anywhere else since.

revjx2• 9 years ago

I share your sentiments - the Wii U has an excellent, albeit small lineup of software. I've seen it as a companion to the PS4 / Xbox rather than a competitor.

threeseed• 9 years ago

Personally I hope it's not hacked. Indie developers now have a affordable, interesting platform with relatively open tools.

There needs to be a commercial incentive for them to develop games.

Nintendo put all their eggs in the Switch basket and if it fails they likely will never recover from it.

harmegido• 9 years ago

I don't think your last statement is true at all. Just look at what their share price did as a result of pokemon go and mario run. Nintendo is worth 50% more than it was just under a year ago, no switch required.

fphhotchips• 9 years ago

Nintendo has enough cash in reserve to basically last until the heat death of the universe. If the Switch fails they'll move on to the next thing.

Which is good, because my money is on the Switch failing, at least in V1. Great core premise, too many compromises (especially with regard to controller size).

lmm2• 9 years ago

Nintendo generally prices their hardware to make a profit. It getting hacked won't hurt them.

They've got an '80s mentality where the most important thing is making sure there are no bad games published in their name - the whole "Nintendo Seal of Quality" thing. It's not about the money, it's about control.

NTripleOne3• 9 years ago

Indie developers now have a affordable, interesting platform with relatively open tools.

You mean PC? That they've had for years? And is still the primary platform for indie releases?

cwyers• 9 years ago

If dev units are affordable, why does it need to be hacked to have a homebrew community?

vertex-four• 9 years ago

You can't actually get a dev unit without being approved by the company, is how it works. It's not as if you could get a PS4 devkit if only you could afford it - you need to prove that either you've shipped games in the past, or you have an interesting game in development that you've already put serious effort into.

Eridrus6• 9 years ago

Maybe this is the engineer in me talking, but I'm personally a bit surprised that this is still a thing and Google hasn't invested in a system to let you play Android games on your TV easily.

They could get further into the home entertainment category and probably drive higher priced sales to the Play store.

camus2• 9 years ago

Maybe this is the engineer in me talking, but I'm personally a bit surprised that this is still a thing and Google hasn't invested in a system to let you play Android games on your TV easily.

Remember this?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of...

A failure.

ChromeOS will run Android applications. I don't think there is that much room or market for yet another console system. Even the XBox one isn't selling as much as Microsoft wanted; the PS VITA is barely selling outside Japan and the Switch may be the last console for Nintendo if it fails.

Eridrus6• 9 years ago

Clearly HN even hates the suggestion, but the thing about an Android-based console would be that it comes with all of the mobile games built in. Some even already have controller support. You could even imagine a "console" that was just a dock for your phone and existing wireless controllers that hit the same price point as a Chromecast.

These things all exist in the Android ecosystem, but they're either built by 3rd parties or not really promoted.

monocasa4• 9 years ago

The Ouya's SoC was out of date by the time they launched. I wouldn't say that the idea is invalid based off of that experience.

jaegerpicker• 9 years ago

There are mobile consoles, they are called phones and tablets. Android and especially iOS are making a huge dent in the gaming market but most "hard-core" gamers don't want to admit it. There is a mountain load of horrible games on mobile platforms but a ton of real gems also and that's good enough for a ton of people IMO.

Eridrus6• 9 years ago

I agree, I'm just surprised that Google isn't pushing it as a serious console alternative for gaming on your TV. One of the common complaints is that Android users don't pay, but I feel like a lot of that is price anchoring; if you anchor to typical console prices you can probably raise the price users are willing to pay.

jra101• 9 years ago

Sounds like you are describing an NVIDIA Shield TV: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/shield-tv/

Eridrus6• 9 years ago

If this version had existed before I bought my Steam Link, I would probably have this instead of my Steam Link + Roku + Google Home.

It seems like the only reason to get the Switch is platform exclusives, which has always felt like a gamer-hostile move.

st3v3r• 9 years ago

What are you talking about? There have been many attempts to make an "Android Console". They've pretty much all flopped.

Games made for a touchpad and finger don't translate well to controllers, just like controller games don't always translate well to touch pads.

emsy• 9 years ago

I'm kind of on the fence on this one. I remember the Wii had a much higher entry barrier but iirc still a lot of shovelware. A high number of games makes discoverability harder for "serious" developers (people who don't produce asset flips etc.) On the other hand I don't think this problem should be solved by creating an artificial entry barrier.

pasquinelli3• 9 years ago

the reason the wii got all that garbage was because the console was such a runaway hit with the casual market that publishers rushed out to get whatever crap they could onto it. a $500 devkit doesn't have any effect on those forces. the switch probably won't be the runaway hit with the casual market, so publishers probably won't rush out to get whatever crap they can onto it.

normalperson1232• 9 years ago

what else goes into publishing for the switch? what kind of content restrictions are there? is it like the app store where you have to be 100% family friendly? what percentage of the sales do you get as a developer? will they be cracking down on asset flipping games?

lttlrck• 9 years ago

The AppStore is not 100% 'family friendly'. There are M rated games available for Wii and Wii U.

pasquinelli3• 9 years ago

i'm not an insider or anything, so you can take it with a grain of salt, but i think the answer to all your questions is whatever is good for nintendo.

"what else goes into publishing for the switch?" whatever's good for nintendo.

"what kind of content restrictions are there?" whatever's good for nintendo.

"is it like the app store where you have to be 100% family friendly?" whatever's good for nintendo.

"what percentage of the sales do you get as a developer?" whatever's good for nintendo.

"will they be cracking down on asset flipping games?" whatever's good for nintendo.

a game console isn't like a mobile platform. it's less like youtube and more like a television network.

normalperson1232• 9 years ago

well in this case, asset flipping will be rampant, devs will get a shred of the profits and etc.

nsxwolf• 9 years ago

Isn't the real entry barrier getting Nintendo to accept your game? Unless they're about to massively lower their standards...

pasquinelli3• 9 years ago

right, but there was a time nintendo wouldn't even look at your game if you were a small indie team and not just anyone could get a devkit, even if they had the money. nintendo is really conservative about this.

hkmurakami• 9 years ago

Yeah met an indie team from Mexico last year at GDC who couldn't even get a Dev kit for WiiU.

tradersam• 9 years ago

So my (somewhat unrelated) question is does the Switch replace both the Wii U and 3DS or just the former? The Switch has mobile capabilities as we've seen but does it justify a stop in 3DS sales/development/play?

Haven't done much research, just a thought.

delecti2• 9 years ago

Officially it only replaces the Wii U. That's so if the Switch flops, they can release a "real" handheld successor to the 3DS in a few years

However when the DS was released they also said it wasn't a replacement for the GBA, when that was also pretty obviously untrue. Additionally, word is that Nintendo has merged their 3DS and Wii U game development efforts to focus on the Switch.

They also don't really have any 3DS games on the radar for further out than the end of the year. It seems safe to assume that Nintendo fully intends to focus on the Switch going forward.

TazeTSchnitzel• 9 years ago

If the Switch goes well, they could conceivably produce a “Switch mini” or something.

kyle-rb• 9 years ago

when the DS was released they also said it wasn't a replacement for the GBA

Did Nintendo really say that? I don't see how they could make that argument when the DS literally had a GBA cartridge slot.

The Switch not replacing the 3DS is at least reasonable in theory (not sure about in practice).

intrasight3• 9 years ago

Why are gaming consoles still a thing with consumers? Why wouldn't they just buy a Chromecast and project phone/tablet games onto TV?

scrame• 9 years ago

Most phone/tablet games are crap. Nintendo is a games company first, and most of their titles are exclusive to their consoles.

intrasight3• 9 years ago

titles are exclusive to their consoles.

well that answers my question then.

veidr• 9 years ago

I'm not much of a gamer, but I am a consumer who buys these consoles (and will be buying the Switch). Here are my main reasons:

- consoles have games that are, for many people, much more attractive at the top-end (big-name big-budget games Mario Bros|Kart|Whatever, Splatoon, Grand Theft Auto, Destiny, Halo, etc etc... games I or my kids have heard of and are the canonical game version and not watered-down phone spinoffs)

- consoles have real controllers, that all the first-tier games are designed for (compare Mario Bros. for the latest Nintendo console (many hours of fun for multiple members family vs 10 minute novelty game consisting of pressing one button)

- there aren't many games for phones that actually work well for multiple simultaneous players on the big tv

- 99.9% of phone games are pure garbage, while on consoles it's probably only 75% or so

seabrookmx• 9 years ago

Not sure if trolling.. or if you're just ignorant to such a massive industry.

Playstation 4, which is the best selling console of this generation, has shipped 57million units, and Sony also makes publishing profits off many of the popular games exclusive to their system. They also have a paid online service. We're talking billions of dollars for Sony alone.

As for why dedicated gaming machines still capture so much of the market as opposed to the "casual/mobile" gaming market:

-Latency would be too high via a Chromecast causing input lag in fast paced games such as shooters (though lower latency, gaming specific streaming services do exist from Sony, Steam, and NVidia)

-Graphical fidelity wouldn't be comparable. Consoles already are the butt end of many "serious gamer" jokes because they don't have the computational horsepower to provide equivalent outputs to high end PCs (Google the "gaming PC masterrace" memes)

-Touchscreens only serve as good inputs for some types of games (strategy and puzzle games come to mind). Racing games, fighting games, RPG's and platformers are usually tailored to controllers.

As I mentioned before, consoles are even mainstream considered to the gaming PC market, which has a ton of dedicated hardware and revenue still despite the desktop as a whole being on the decline (atleast with your average consumer).

intrasight3• 9 years ago

I shouldn't have generalized to "consoles" - really was more interested in why a consumer would choose the Switch (which looks more like a tablet) vs playing games on a general-purpose tablet (with option of Chromecast to play on TV)

Also, you can get bluetooth game controllers for Android.

Switch uses Nvidia Tegra X1 which is a regular tablet CPU/GPU so the switch doesn't have something special under the hood.

lmm2• 9 years ago

"Couch multiplayer" is still fun and still relatively poorly supported on PC-like platforms.

The "just turn it on and play" usability is important too, especially for a device that you only use occasionally. I used to keep a couple of controllers for my PC and suggest multiplayer to people, but it felt like every time I did it something new had broken or needed updating.

eriknstr• 9 years ago

That's still $500 too much amirite? Seriously though, while I'm fine with a license charge for an official release, I don't see why there should be any cost at all just to compile and run an unsigned binary on your own system. Guess it might come down to anti-piracy measures.

snuxoll• 9 years ago

Extra RAM and CPU cycles to run debug builds is a common feature of console devkits.

mrfusion2• 9 years ago

What happened to nes classic? I wish they'd focus on that befor starting new stuff.

freeflight• 9 years ago

They've been selling those since the end of 2016, so what's there to focus on?

mrfusion2• 9 years ago

They're continually out of stock. No place to buy one.

jaimex2• 9 years ago

Why are they announcing dev kits just now? This should have been done at least a year ago.

flukus• 9 years ago

Commercial devs would have got them long ago. They aren't relying on indie devs to push systems like others do.

Nintendo announced Switch Dev kits are $500

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