What happens when you dump the App Store?

https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/13/what-happens-when-you-dump-the-app-store/

by ColanR • 9 years ago

183 123 9 years ago

Should be macOS App Store title seems to imply the iOS one .

Wow, yeah. This is heavily implied by the header image that's full of iOS app shapes. My first thought was, how do you even get an app on your iPhone without the App store? That's just for developers, right?

My next thought was that I generally don't discover things through the iOS App Store. I usually have to be told that they exist first, and even then the search doesn't always give me what I want since the App Store is full of knock-offs that should have been deleted for copyright infringement.

But the App Store on desktop? Most folks are still used to the old way of going to a website and downloading a DMG.

huangc103• 9 years ago

Agreed. Title is misleading and is clearly clickbait. Please admin switch this.

eriknstr2• 9 years ago

I'm surprised that the mods still haven't done anything about the title.

DanBC• 9 years ago

You need to email them.

lucb1e• 9 years ago

Oh wow, I skimmed most of the article, mostly looking for how they got the app on iPhones, and did not even catch this. Misleading indeed.

BoorishBears• 9 years ago

*What happens when you pull a well established app with an extremely well established (and very tech savvy) user base from the macOS App Store in a public fashion.

dirtae• 9 years ago

Piezo, Rogue Amoeba's app, was removed from the Mac App Store with "minimal publicity", according to their blog post:

https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2017/02/10/piezos-life-outsid...

paulkafasis3• 9 years ago

That is quite correct. When we removed Piezo from the Mac App Store a year ago, we didn't send out a press release, nor seek publicity over this move in any way. We simply removed it and explained why on our blog (https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-...). That was it.

We can certainly debate how well-established or tech-savvy our users are (though I will note that Piezo is by far our simplest application, and used by the least technically savvy among our user base). But to say that we did this in a “public fashion” is just false.

astrodust5• 9 years ago

They're also a very savvy company that has their own store. They didn't have to do any work other than turn off the App Store listing.

Smaller developers may have to go through considerable pain and anguish in setting up their own store, or they can suffer through even more angusih and pain when the store they entrusted to do their sales goes down in flames, as with Kagi. https://tidbits.com/article/16665

Being self-hosted is obviously better if you can swing it, but it's more work and it's not for everyone.

spott• 9 years ago

The value-add of the mac store is just not very good anymore.

There are only three reasons people might buy something from the mac store vs. from the developer directly:

1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out. 2. They found it in the mac store, and thus purchased it in the mac store. 3. They trust apple to reduce the risk of malware when using the mac store vs. a developers web page.

The mac store is getting really hard to navigate, and it doesn't give any useful search functionality, so #2 is disappearing as a reason people are buying from the apple store. #1 is nice, but with auto updates, it is disappearing as well. #3 isn't generally an issue for developers or "power users", so it is gone as well.

Honestly, I can't think of a reasonable reason to put something in the mac store that is oriented towards developers or power users. The hit in revenue just isn't worth the benefits. Though I would love to hear from someone who came to a different conclusion.

tiglionabbit2• 9 years ago

My #1 reason to use it is that it puts the purchase on my record so I can easily re-download it if I happen to lose it somehow. No more searching through ancient emails for activation codes.

slantyyz• 9 years ago

Also, it's easier (and often cheaper) if you own multiple computers. No complex registration/deregistration of computers to ensure license compliance.

jedberg4• 9 years ago

But if an app is not available on the app store, does that stop you from getting it? That's a consumer benefit but it has no corresponding benefit to the developer, so it's unlikely to be a good argument for a developer to stick with the app store.

hkmurakami2• 9 years ago

I buy my adobe software via Amazon for this exact reason. Meanwhile, I can't figure out how I can install Office 2011 on my new machine even though I have the key since MSFT doesn't even let me download the .dmg from their site anymore.

blub2• 9 years ago

That's not correct. Make sure you have backups because developers remove apps and then upload new versions under different application IDs, making you purchase them again.

So basically you're renting software from the AppStore. I think I paid 100 EUR for Abby FineReader and now I can't access it any more.

e40• 9 years ago

#4: I get to use it on 5 computers.

sigjuice2• 9 years ago

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202152 seems to imply that there is no such limit.

Can I use apps from the Mac App Store on more than one computer?

Apps from the Mac App Store may be used on any Macs that you own or control for your personal use.

cortesoft2• 9 years ago

There are a few others:

Not having to enter payment information again.

Not having to trust a new third party with your payment information.

Trusted refund support.

Apple makes it seem scary to install software outside the app store.

makecheck3• 9 years ago

A huge problem with the Mac App Store is that it is not a service for listing “all Mac software that exists” but it NEEDS to be. I would argue that the potential benefits to the platform for listing all software are huge, even if many pages end up being little more than links to external web sites.

Sure, Apple wants a cut of sales but they’re already listing totally-free apps so they’ve shown that money isn’t everything.

If they made it dead-simple to list apps (e.g. free listing pages to all developers, where software storage/downloading/sales are clearly another tier), they’d soon have all Mac software in their list. They could then build on that repository to become the Google of software search. Search could be truly powerful.

Instead, search is not only pointless on the Mac App Store but it’s the opposite of that. I now EXPECT crap, I don’t even EXPECT a reasonable match. For every search for “software that does X”, I KNOW that the results will probably not include any well-known programs and will certainly contain cheap crap and clearly-misleading scam-ware. The rest of the list will be software that was last updated 3 years ago.

summerdown2• 9 years ago

Users perceive the app store as giving a level of curation and security. If it became a list of "all Mac software that exists," and one of those turned out to be dodgy, Apple's image would take a real hit.

Also, what would listing software that hasn't been through the submissions process actually mean? That the app is verified by Apple? That going to the site and putting your credit card number into the shopping cart is guaranteed to be secure? That other things that haven't been listed yet are not as favoured in some way?

I'm not saying I like the app store model, or that they can't have a second tier of lower-scrutiny apps. I do think it would need a lot of thought and care, however.

js2• 9 years ago

4. Minor but: if you have more than one machine, the app installs across machines for you.

Karunamon• 9 years ago

I'm not too sure 1 is a problem in the real world. Most popular outside-of-app-store apps I'm aware of have built in updating mechanisms. Think Sparkle and the like.

If you use iTerm, you know what I'm talking about.

blub2• 9 years ago

#1 is not even true. I've bought ABBY FineReader and Patterns from the AppStore and both apps have been removed and replaced with newer versions.

I didn't have a backup of ABBY and the Patterns backup doesn't work because when run it complains that it doesn't work with the latest macOS and that I should update for 15+ EUR.

eloisant• 9 years ago

I would love the Mac App Store if it worked well, like Steam or the Play Store.

Unfortunately it's a piece of garbage.

thirdsun• 9 years ago

1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out.

For me this is the number one reason for not buying via the Mac AppStore.

At this point almost every mac app uses the tried and tested Sparkle update mechanism [0], which is very fast and rather unobtrusive. I'm mostly done updating through sparkle before I even see the list of available updates in the App Store. It's slow as hell, requires my AppleID more often than I like and is overall simply a very cumbersome experience, that leads me to postpone updates endlessly.

[0] https://sparkle-project.org/

josephg• 9 years ago

Sparkle is ahead of whats available on windows, but I still find it super annoying. I hate going to use a program and - just at that point I most want to get work done, I get annoying popups. "There's an update available! Quick - make some decisions about it! click" ugh wait for download "Restart the app to continue!" click "Heyyy, check out our new features! clickkkkkkk".

Its a total momentum killer. Like, imagine if randomly (every month or so) instead of loading immediately hackernews took 1 minute to load instead, and it required that you babysit it the whole time while you hit "next".

Personally I wish all apps used Chrome's update mechanism. Its unobtrusive, the patches are tiny compared to the size of Chrome and it works great. Most users don't even know the updates are happening.

Thats how I want all apps (and, frankly, my OS) to update. Just, silently and reliably. No annoying popups. No decisions to make when I'm trying to get work done. No waiting for the update to happen. Update yourself quickly in the background, and do it without bothering me.

Given how long chrome's updater has been out I'm surprised there's no embeddable Sparkle-like version for 3rd party apps to use.

elcapitan• 9 years ago

Also, there are apps that you use more often and apps that you use less often. By leaving the update to the app itself, you can basically make use of the update mechanism in proportion to how much you really need the app (you start it up, there is an update, you run it in 10-15s and you're done). You haven't used it in half a year, you open it, update to the most recent version, done.

With the appstore on the other hand, besides being horribly slow, it will always present you everything that is updateable, even if you only need that tool only 3-4 times a year. So I will always have to make that call per every app in the list, every time I open the updates panel.

ThomPete6• 9 years ago

I pulled my mac app http://www.ghostnoteapp.com from the appstore back in '15 only 5 months after launching it and haven't looked back since.

It's still a pretty profitable app for me and I actually enjoy the freedom of not having to have it go through review process.

For most mac apps people are googling rather than browsing the app store anyway.

huangc103• 9 years ago

It's smart of you to still use the App Store logo though. ;) I'll give you that.

ThomPete6• 9 years ago

Interesting never thought about it like that.

To me the icon indicating it's app store is this: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/marketing/guidelines/#...

But now you actually got me wondering if I should change it.

charlesdm• 9 years ago

App review takes a day now. Was it really that much of a hassle to you?

ThomPete6• 9 years ago

It often took a week and yes it was a hassle also because of all the restrictions they put on what you are allowed to do.

I know they have improved a little but I frankly don't need them as the Mac appstore market is nothing like the iOS appstore market. There is no benefit really.

newscracker• 9 years ago

As a cheapskate app buyer (a learned behavior from different app stores), I noticed that you had this priced at $4.99 while it was on the Mac App Store but have it at $9.99 on your own store now. That made me rethink if I really need this app because it "seems expensive" with this information in the background. This is just a buyer psychology observation, and not intended to devalue your app or your efforts in any way.

ThomPete6• 9 years ago

Pricing is a tricky thing. Start to high and go lower and people get mad for being tricked into buying the expensive version when a cheaper one comes out. I made that mistake with my first product and promised never to do that again.

I was also pricing it on my own website at $4.99 back then.

I realized that the value I was creating was more than $4.99 and I haven't seen a drop in revenue based on that.

So you have to find the sweet spot in order to afford keep developing it.

exabrial• 9 years ago

I greatly dislike the osx app store. It's intrusive, slow (even over Google fiber), has an awful UI, and is generally annoying.

bsaul2• 9 years ago

Evey single thing of those apple store is a gigantic shame.

Interface for browsing content ( itunes) : sucks, absolute disaster.

Interface for publishing content ( itunesconnect) : feels like the work of an intern

Review process : lottery. Never know for sure if your business isn't going to get killed by an eula update.

Development tools ( xcode ) : so bad it becomes embarrassing.

Commission : 30% is a total ripoff. Should be half of it, max.

Content indexing / discoverability : nonexistant. So bad they had to force developpers to remove working but non updated apps.

And I could go on and on, but really, the only reason it remains this bad is because apple is in a de facto monopoly position on everything related to their products.

seanalltogether• 9 years ago

I really really really wish amazon would just develop a vendor neutral app store already. Valve seems unwilling to branch into apps outside the sphere of the gaming community. Apple and Microsoft seem to not care about the features that would make their stores more attractive to both buyers and sellers.

lmm• 9 years ago

They have a store on android, but I don't get the impression it's been a massive success.

fpgeek2• 9 years ago

It's been good enough to support their Kindle Fire ecosystem without using Google Play (I don't think anyone else has succeeded with something like that outside China), but they're still propping it up on non-Amazon devices by tying Amazon Video to it, so...

throwaway2048• 9 years ago

valve has tried with various creative tools like 3d modelers etc, but few seem to care.

bsaul2• 9 years ago

Wonder if any of those three giant stores ( google, apple and especially amazon) aren't going to be facing the next wave of anti-trust lawsuits in tech.

awalton• 9 years ago

I wonder if articles like this will hasten non-app-store-apps' demise. Apple has already appeared to be quite itchy to lock down everything and weld the hood shut, throwing vendor kexts out of the kernel left and right and introducing ChromeOS-like OS verification steps, making users jump through several hoops to run downloaded executables... Apple's going to eventually want to stem the outgoing tide before too many apps flee the walled sandbox and have a voice loud enough that they can't simply ignore. (It's only a matter of "when" really; they made the OS free because they fully intend to get their 30% cut on every app sold, moving the iOS model to the Desktop.)

api• 9 years ago

If/when they do this, I'm gone from OSX.

This can fly on mobile because ultimately mobile devices are just dumb terms for accessing the cloud. I don't think it'll fly on real computers, especially for the pro market and developers.

i336_2• 9 years ago

To mods: I flagged this to bring attention to the clickbait title: this is NOT referring to iOS.

The post title here is the same as the article title but I would still recommend changing it, even if just to "macOS App Store".

i336_2• 9 years ago

Small edit - I just realized "Mac App Store" could work as well, that's what I understand it's usually called.

arielm• 9 years ago

I think that without knowing the y-axis of that chart it's hard to judge whether it's really not worth it to even be listed.

Mac apps are more niche than their mobile counterparts. Why is a discussion for a different time, but _selling_ niche products is very different than freemium or even paid mobile apps.

If sales are low on a daily basis I'd say the downloads came from users who knew what they wanted and just needed a way to get it, which is what I suspect is happening.

I'm not trying to defend the Mac App Store here, obviously it leaves a lot to be desired as it related to discovery. I'm not sure if we can blame Apple for that or not though. Desktop app stores never really took off with steam being the only exception. And steam isn't for apps.

The only real advantage I see the MAS could have is credibility when it gets to subscriptions. Let's see how Apple will handle that.

fpgeek2• 9 years ago

Desktop app stores never really took off with steam being the only exception. And steam isn't for apps.

Mobile app stores aren't for apps (or at least paid apps) either. If you filter out all the games, the frontends for external services and all the other free apps, how much is left? How significant is it?

beezischillin• 9 years ago

From a user's point of view the App Store (on every Apple platform, from tvOS to the Watch) is an incredibly bad deal, with awesome offerings.

* The centralised payment really incentivises users to buy apps (myself included, I find myself thinking about buying something a lot less when only having to trust one source with my information, and that source ensures that their system works well for me).

* iCloud Sync is a really big bonus for most of the work-related apps I bought and it's painfully missing when you read that devs pulled their software from the store and you cannot access it anymore.

* The fact that I can comfortably download all the software I bought without keeping track of it is a bonus - if I ever have to reset a device, it's a giant bonus.

And the negatives:

* It stifles innovation -- content discovery is almost impossible! Within two clicks you can arrive at endless lists of shovel-ware - the top lists are almost completely unusable in my region as a way to find new and interesting apps. Same goes for categories (on stores that even have a somewhat OK system of categories). The Watch / TV stores are horrible! For some reason I always seem to run out of content to browse, even tho there are (possibly) hundreds of thousands of apps on that platform. The only half-acceptable way I found to look for new stuff is to browse Apple's curated collections (which almost always are very samey). Now I wouldn't say this is worse than Google Play, for example, I recently browsed through it and had a similar experience, however that should be enough to call attention to the issue, since the Apple app store is usually considered more sophisticated

* Search: it's not very good, from the App Store to Apple Music tolerance on misspelling names or searching for approximates is bad.

* You're forced to only use their system of delivery, unless you're on macOS (which's future is looking dubious on that front as well), so you're inherently forced to deal with the negatives, without having a choice of other ecosystems.

I love my Apple products, I've almost completely switched to their ecosystem within the last two years, but I am really hoping to see as much work on these issues as on the pull-up music player menu on the Control Center. Just because the competition is not on another, better level, it does not mean that having to constantly Google to discover great new apps is acceptable.

murukesh_s• 9 years ago

Apple should lower the fees for desktop apps. The developer license, while only 100$, is still a factor that prevents indie developers from considering the App Store. Perhaps make it free for free and open source apps. And only take a commission for paid apps. The mobile app store was different because that was the only option for developers at that time. Apple would ideally like to make it that way even on the desktops eventually, but that would suck.

erikb• 9 years ago

We should make a clear difference here between any App Store and a computer App store. Sure, people will not care much when it's a computer app store, since they have long experience in installing programs without it. But when it comes to smartphone/tablet app stores, not being in one of them means your program is dead.

mmjaa• 9 years ago

home-brew is my App Store these days. I only go to the 'official' Mac App Store out of curiosity to see new releases - and then I wait until they show up in 'brew cask'. If they don't: meh. I don't care. If they do, then I happily use home-brew to install new apps.

The reason? home-brew is just such an elegant way of administering installed Apps without doing the 'download, mount, drag to ~/Applications, etc.' dance ..

amelius• 9 years ago

If too many devs flee the app store, then chances are Apple makes the app-store mandatory for installing new apps.

masklinn• 9 years ago

Not really. This is about MAS not iOS appstore. There's no way Apple can require MAS-install, everybody would up and leave the ecosystem entirely (too many useful tools can't even fit in MAS's restrictions) and MAS has never had much value-add for the constraints and cost.

eonw2• 9 years ago

as a mac user, i always prefer to download the dmg directly. i only use the app store for OS updates, xcode and itunes updates.

What happens when you dump the App Store?

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