After protest, Lenovo adds Linux compatibility to Yoga 900 and 900S laptops

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3139812/laptop-computers/after-protest-lenovo-brings-linux-compatibility-to-yoga-900-and-900s.html

by donnemartin • 10 years ago

216 96 10 years ago

pcworld.com

adtac• 10 years ago

Seriously, why isn't Linux higher on the priority list of vendors? A huge portion of devs have Linux as their main OS but support is so scarce.

digi_owl2• 10 years ago

Because the margins are just not there.

marcosdumay5• 10 years ago

Why a Linux computer should have any less margin than a Windows one?

frostburg• 10 years ago

Most of their clients aren't developers, I imagine.

SEJeff2• 10 years ago

The same could be said about windows on supercomputers. Why is windows supported so poorly by Cray and other HPC supercomputer vendors when Linux is supported so well?

It is just about the demographics.

syshum• 10 years ago

That is easy. Linux is technologically superior to Windows in every way.

semi-extrinsic• 10 years ago

Actually, MSFT has pushed Windows Server on supercomputers a few times, as well as for other latency critical applications like the London Stock Exchange. Each time they've ended up with egg on their faces for technical reasons, i.e. Linux consistently outperforms Windows Server both on speed and reliability for these workloads.

Example: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2467082/data-center/lon...

JamesBaxter• 10 years ago

The Stack Overflow developer survey would suggest that's not correct[0].

Mac OS X 26.2%

Windows 7 22.5%

Linux 21.7%

Windows 10 20.8%

Windows 8 8.4%

Windows XP 0.4%

Though it is possible that the sort of developers that use desktop linux don't use Stack Overflow.

[0] http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016#tech...

captainmuon2• 10 years ago

Huh, 21.7% is a surpizingly huge portion in my book. I would have suspected a much smaller number.

One fifth is a market segment that is large enough to cater for. If you even put a small team on the task of ensuring that Linux installs on your notebooks, and make the minimal neccessary changes (like this BIOS change... or better revert of a breaking change), then you could claim Linux support as your unique selling point, and grab a huge fraction of those 20%.

cujo• 10 years ago

If you throw out MacOS (and you can, given the product in question), it's nearly 1/3.

_JamesA_• 10 years ago

Or don't bother to fill out surveys.

I need to update my LinuxCounter [1] profile after years of neglect.

[1] https://www.linuxcounter.net/

kintamanimatt• 10 years ago

I'm not sure your statistics support your conclusion. 21.7% equates to a huge number of developers, just not a majority.

The fact that there are about as many developers who are Linux users as there are Mac users is quite telling.

Theodores• 10 years ago

My gut feeling is that 0.5% of PCs/Macs sold for business use are running desktop linux in the UK. This is based entirely on my experience of working for internet based businesses over the last decade. Where I am right now that figure is actually true, we have 200 or so PCs/Macs and my box is the only linux one. Okay, anecdotal but ballpark.

Lenovo have a 20% market share in the UK and my gut feeling is that 20 million UK employees sit in front of a computer rather than a sat-nav or a point of sale system etc.

Given that Lenovo have dozens of Thinkpads and Yoga variants, there are probably a dozen machines of interest to the linux desktop type of person.

If we assume that PCs/Macs get replaced every two years (generous) then the arithmetic works out at around a thousand sales per model per year to desktop linux users. I run normal Ubuntu not some variant - Mint/Debian/etc. Linux != Ubuntu, there are those that prefer the Red Hat flavours. Therefore a default Linux install of Ubuntu isn't going to be what picky linux devs will want.

Note that in the UK the keyboard is different and there is a 'u' in colour. You would want your default linux install to work out the box without having to change locale settings.

Obviously the US/Canada market is vast compared to the UK, but not more than 10 times larger. So that still means a low figure for expected linux sales even for the gigantic Lenovo company. Why would they bother to support it? There is no business case.

Hydraulix9893• 10 years ago

Linux is ahead of Windows 10 even on your very list. How can you argue to the contrary?

wmf3• 10 years ago

Dell, Lenovo, and HP support Linux on their "pro" PCs but they don't bother for their toy laptops like this Yoga that we're talking about.

tdkl2• 10 years ago

This is a Linux-only BIOS, meaning it should be used only by those who want to load the OS. If you want to continue with Windows, do not load the firmware. “This BIOS is not intended to be used on machines running Windows operating systems,” Lenovo said.

One step forward, two steps back.

Johan-bjareholt• 10 years ago

The "Linux only BIOS" also works for Windows though so you can dual boot with it. The reason why they say it doesn't is because they don't want to spend money on officially supporting it and AHCI gives a slight performance decrease from their default RAID configuration.

tdkl2• 10 years ago

Well if it does work with Windows, then fine, I took it from the article, that there's no chance running Windows or dual booting after switching to it.

because they don't want to spend money on officially supporting it

I hope this doesn't mean the warranty and support is void after doing this, wouldn't even surprise me.

wtallis• 10 years ago

"and AHCI gives a slight performance decrease from their default RAID configuration."

Is that actually true, or is it really that using Microsoft's AHCI driver instead of Intel's driver hurts performance? Last time I checked, Intel's driver could be used even when the controller is in AHCI mode.

djsumdog3• 10 years ago

A lot of the newer developer grade laptops have nvme options anyway (which work on both Windows and current Linux kernels). My XPS 13 runs on Linux with nvme fine.

brudgers3• 10 years ago

I suspect you're correct and that the new BIOS may break Windows certification. My experience is that Windows 10 runs fine on non-certified hardware since it's running fine on four non-certified machines here at the house.

Hydraulix9893• 10 years ago

The other reason is that Windows 7 is compatible with the "Linux only BIOS."

kbenson2• 10 years ago

Locking specific hardware to Windows has emerged as an issue in recent years. For example, Intel’s Kaby Lake chips support only Windows 10, so will AMD’s upcoming Zen chips.
Another option is to buy Linux-based laptops with the latest Kaby Lake chips, like System76’s Lemur laptop, which starts at $699, or Dell’s XPS 13 Developer Edition, which starts at $949.

So, which is it? Can Kaby Lake chips support Linux or not, because those statements seem contradictory.

gpderetta• 10 years ago

Misleading line. They do not support any version of window before 10 (that is, neither MS nor Intel or AMD will release drivers for other windows). Linux (and other OSs) should support them just fine.

captainmuon2• 10 years ago

I'm curious, what do the CPUs need drivers for? I thought x86 processors are always backwards-compatible, in theory all the way back to DOS.

Or is it the chipset driver? Here also I wonder what would have changed dramatically since the previous generation.

I've found the only thing I needed to install chipset drivers for was for mainboard-specific features, like LED and Fan control, and for (back then) bleeding edge features like USB3. Granted, this was because basic chipset support was integrated into windows. Still, I wonder what the breaking change or new feature in Kaby Lake is.

pmontra• 10 years ago

Yes, I noticed that too. I wonder if the authors of these articles care about what they are writing.

Kaby Lake works with any OS which has drivers for them. MS didn't plan to make any for Windows < 10 and wasn't asking OEMs to develop them for those Windowses.

kbenson2• 10 years ago

I see, so the first statement was made in a context of only the windows ecosystem. It's exceptionally poor wording, since they aren't actually talking about "Locking specific hardware to Windows" but instead "ensuring specific hardware doesn't get support on older version of windows". Windows 10 and windows 8 and prior are all still "Windows".

equalunique• 10 years ago

Those are some nice looking laptops. With this development, I may be getting one. The 900S with QHD looks like fun!

znpy• 10 years ago

Woah, that is truly big.

I remember that stuff like this used to quickly be redirected to /dev/null like five years ago.

Great news then! Something has changed then :)

croon• 10 years ago

So Lenovo only fixes bad stuff they do after vocal protest. Which time in a row is this now?

hd42• 10 years ago

Too late, I will never buy Lenovo again, there are too many other reasonable choices of companies who don't make anti-Linux decisions then backtrack when they get covered in shit. Once bitten..

pavel_lishin• 10 years ago

Don't forget anti-security, too!

https://www.engadget.com/2015/08/12/lenovo-updater-security-...

https://www.cnet.com/news/superfish-torments-lenovo-owners-w...

lacampbell• 10 years ago

I have a lenovo thinkpad x140e and I love it. It's underpowered and "bulky", but as a healthy adult I really don't care if a laptop is a few hundred grams heavier. I've dropped it once or twice as well.

But I am not going to buy a laptop that won't run Linux. have any recommendations?

chrisper• 10 years ago

But I am not going to buy a laptop that won't run Linux. have any recommendations?

Just keep buying Thinkpads. They are fine and support Linux. I would stay away from regular consumer laptops anyway.

hd42• 10 years ago

The Dell XPS seems to get recommended a lot. I have a 2012 HP Pavilion which works fine with Ubuntu 16.04.

yuhong• 10 years ago

I have been thinking about whether the distinction between "consumer" (eg IdeaPad) and "business" (eg ThinkPad) machines even makes sense. This is not even limited to Lenovo of course.

mappu• 10 years ago

Intel submitted a patch to the linux-nvme mailing list to support the original raid system used in the Lenovo Yoga.

However, the kernel maintainers turned down the patch because the hardware itself was bizarre, underspecified, and unreliable in common cases.

This is an ongoing story and i expect there'll be a resolution in a few months.

ML discussion thread is here: http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/linux-nvme/2016-October...

voltagex_• 10 years ago

I'm sure there was a post on linux-ide in the same vein. It's frustrating because my XPS 13 is also affected.

incompatible• 10 years ago

Is the unreliable hardware causing problems for Windows users?

dogma11382• 10 years ago

No.

digi_owl2• 10 years ago

Nope, because Intel can just push some binary drivers out and everyone will down it with a gargle.

The kernel patches are refused because the kernel devs expect to maintain the code for as long as there are devices in active use that need it once allowed in.

Thus they demand a proper spec for the device behavior so they can test for breakages down the line. And apparently the patches are already violating AHCI behavior expected by the kernel.

Or at least that is what i got out of reading the short ML thread.

revelation• 10 years ago

Can someone explain in greater detail what exactly Intel is trying to do here?

It sounds like trying to tunnel NVMe through something that is only connected over an AHCI interface.

userbinator• 10 years ago

I'm not too familiar with this area of PC hardware, but it does seem like their AHCI controller can be configured to act like a PCI bridge with an NVMe device on the other side of it.

sengork• 10 years ago

I find the recruitment information page on that domain rather amusing: http://www.infradead.org/recruitment.html

saganus• 10 years ago

I read it and even tried to search for his name because apparently he has made important contributions to Linux (he links /usr/src/linux/CREDITS as his CV so...), but couldn't find anything specifically about his work.

Do you happen to know what does he work/has worked on regarding Linux?

stormbrew• 10 years ago

This is interesting, considering I'm running stock ubuntu 16.04 on a lenovo yoga 900. Didn't have to do any magic at install. I was under the impression that newer kernels already supported The Thing That Is The Problem. It's either that or my laptop is magic...

shmerl3• 10 years ago

At least it's something, but good luck getting any refund from them for the Windows tax. Unless you summon them to a small claims court, they staunchly refuse to refund you, even if you don't plan to use Windows and don't accept the Windows EULA.

zeta01343• 10 years ago

Wait, why would they? The Windows license is bundled with the cost of the computer. You bought the license, whether you plan to use it or not. They are under no obligation to sell the license separately or offer you partial refunds, that's not how sales work.

Good on them if they do, but I feel like you'd be laughed out of Small Claims court. What's your argument? You weren't forced to buy a Lenovo computer, you could have bought any machine, including one with Linux preinstalled and no "Windows Tax."

shmerl3• 10 years ago

Wait, why would they?

Because they are obligated to. Forced product bundling is illegal - it violates anti-trust law.

zeta01343• 10 years ago

So if I'm understanding this correctly, Lenovo isn't actively blocking Linux, they're just using a newer RAID mode in their storage controller that there are no existing Linux drivers for?

This doesn't seem like that big of a deal actually. It's nice of them to provide a legacy mode bios, but this will perhaps encourage the community to write open source drivers for the storage controller in its native mode, expanding the hardware that the linux kernel can support. That would be a win win.

Hydraulix9893• 10 years ago

Well, they initially only released a custom BIOS with a goto statement added to jmp out of the disk controller mode setting (which is normally present and allows the user to change back to AHCI mode). Reverse engineers on the Lenovo forums discovered this modification while studying the disassembly.

Then, one user patched the BIOS and manually reflashed it using an SPI flasher and some soldering, and Linux worked just fine by detecting the drive.

Yes, the ideal solution is that Intel gives specs to OSS devs to build a driver (or even builds on themselves), but the path of least resistance is to have Lenovo unblock that BIOS setting, which amounts to changing one line of code, or 15 minutes of one engineer's time.

After protest, Lenovo adds Linux compatibility to Yoga 900 and 900S laptops

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